Should Pakistan try to obtain the Su-25 Aircraft for the CAS and COIN Role?

[Philip the Arab]

Exactly the Cirit was what I was thinking, but what is its max effective range?
I know wikipedia states the range is out to 8 km, but I spoke to a US Marine AH-1Z pilot and he said they only use these kinds of rockets out to a few thousand meters due to lower accuracy beyond that. He particularly said 3 km was max effective. While that was for unguided rockets, and the range will be further with these guided rockets, in war time you know you can't fire at the max range and expect high probability of hits.

With Good Pakistani-Turkish Relations, Pakistan could get an option to build these rockets under license in Pakistan

Thousands of these rockets would be a potent Anti-Armour weapon, and building cheap but maneuverable platforms will make the CAS force very responsive to Indian or Afghan border violations.

Couples with the Chinese sensor fuzed weapon on cruise missiles, Pakistan maybe able to repulse Cold Start Battle group invasion plans.

Pakistan should get this beast, it is flying tank. Slow moving close support for ground forces.
Imagine how much beat it can take during operations.. Extremely low cost to maintained.

https://battle-machines.org/2015/07/26/a-10-thunderbolt-ii-vs-su-25-frogfoot/

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K-8 can do just fine modified with LGBs and PGMs. We aren't in the cold war where precision weapons aren't widespread.

 

[FuturePAF]

K-8 can do just fine modified with LGBs and PGMs. We aren't in the cold war where precision weapons aren't widespread.

Your right, PGMs are widespread, and to employ your idea, Pakistan will have to make cheaper PGMs. now the issue falls to the CAS suitability of the K-8; can it stand up to enemy fire, will it need to be re-designed/modified for the role, or is a custom built jet the right way to go?

 

[Philip the Arab]

Your right, PGMs are widespread, and to employ your idea, Pakistan will have to make cheaper PGMs. now the issue falls to the CAS suitability of the K-8; can it stand up to enemy fire, will it need to be re-designed/modified for the role, or is a custom built jet the right way to go?

You think Su-25 is better?
Tbh, a new built CAS jet isn't affordable for PAF budget especially with JF-17 Block III. PGMs are expensive but with cheaper rockets and possibly Baktar Shikan(will wire guided work?) integration it could work on K-8.

 

[HAIDER]

K-8 can do just fine modified with LGBs and PGMs. We aren't in the cold war where precision weapons aren't widespread.

These are custom build hull. They can take heavy gun fire. Can fly even taking heavy damage and on single engine.

 

[Philip the Arab]

These are custom build hull. They can take heavy gun fire. Can fly even taking heavy damage and on single engine.

We don't strafe anymore bro. In todays warfare we use PGBs from high altitudes safe from AAA and most MANPADS that can do the job much better than of the Cold War age warfare. J-8 with 4 laser guided bombs could take out many insurgents and with Cirit laser guided rockets could do a lot more.

If you could integrate Chinese version of CBU-97 then it would be a Indian tank killer. With one bomb you can take out 40 tanks.

 

[denel]

K8 can do the work well. As I have expressed always ; it has been orphaned with not much further exploitation of its potential.

 

[Philip the Arab]

K8 can do the work well. As I have expressed always ; it has been orphaned with not much further exploitation of its potential.

Ahrlac seems like a fine machine.

 

[FuturePAF]

K8 can do the work well. As I have expressed always ; it has been orphaned with not much further exploitation of its potential.

How would you further exploit its potential for the COIN Role and the CAS Role.
here is where it stands: a 23 mm gun pod and two rocket pods; one under each wing. Each Rocket pod carries 13 Rockets.

Source: https://thaimilitaryandasianregion....or-k-8-light-attack-and-jet-trainer-aircraft/

I can think of modern Datalinks/Comms/SatCom, a modern E/O pod with a small AESA radar to guide PGMs (as well as operate as part of an EW Suite) would be a good start (Similar to the Sensors on the bird below), but don't you think it needs better armoring?

Also; Pakistan will have to procure/purchase or produce under license the HJ-10 to maximize the utility of these upgrades. The HJ-10 has a range out to 10 km but in battle, once again, max ranges may not be possible, and the plane will have to get in closer

To stay outside of the enemy's SAM ranges; the K-8 may have to carry a couple Chinese SDBs to knock out air defenses and then go in to knock out enemy armour

 

[Philip the Arab]

How would you further exploit its potential for the COIN Role and the CAS Role.
here is where it stands: a 23 mm gun pod and two rocket pods; one under each wing. Each Rocket pod carries 13 Rockets.

Source: https://thaimilitaryandasianregion....or-k-8-light-attack-and-jet-trainer-aircraft/

Venezuela and Egypt has a better version with bombs. Let me find the full loadout picture.
That looks like MK82 which could be replaced with GBU-12 if the versions are the same between EAF and PAF.

With an AESA radar SEAD could be done with JL-8 easily.

 

[LKJ86]

What about L-15?

 

[FuturePAF]

What about L-15?
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How much does the L-15 cost?

 

[LKJ86]

 

[Philip the Arab]

What about L-15?
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Its a good jet, but logistics and costs will be too much for additonal jet. Don't you think a new variant of JL-8 with PGMs could work?

 

[FuturePAF]

Maybe if the K-8 got a more powerful engine, and was up-armored it could work as a CAS platform. The Payload will have to be more than 1000kg; perhaps at least 2000-2500 kg would be adequate enough to carry enough munitions to rival an attack helicopter like the AH-1Z and Apache.

The Guizhou WP-13 a version of the Tumansky R-13 maybe a suitable engine to upgrade to. At a max thrust of 43 kn, it has enough power to carry 2000-2500 kg of payload and allow the aircraft to be better armored.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumansky_R-13

The WP-13 is the engine used on the Soar Dragon.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guizhou_Soar_Dragon

The Honeywell HTF7000 is also a good engine, and if the PAF K-8 stick to using honeywell enignes, this a modern engine that can also do the trick at a max thrust of 33kn; about double the thrust of the current engine. It is a smaller diameter but nearly double the length of the current engine on the K-8.

The change in engine and the need for better aircraft protection, as well as pilot protection will require modifications to the design, and building new aircraft either way.

....

Actually if you look at the stats of the old A-5, it could carry 2000 kg of payload, but needed 2 engines each generating nearly 30 kn of dry thrust.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanchang_Q-5

The JF-17's single engine has a dry thrust of nearly 50 kn.
An Attack Variant of the JF-17 maybe the most sensible option. we already have the factory to produce the jets, and commonality of all but some parts can make maintenance a piece of cake. Using only the dry thrust part of the RD-93 or the WS-13, to save cost and space, a modern single engine attack variant maybe best for Pakistan.

A Pakistani Harrier

 

[Quwa]

Hurkus is actually worse than the UAE Bader in terms of carrying and hardpoint capacity.
4 hardpoints

7 hardpoints

Why can't this be used for armor ops? It can fly well above most MANPADS and AAA at 30000 feet. Also from what I understand it was made for use during the air superiority phase according to their own company representatives.

Be it Hurkus or Bader, if there's a turboprop COIN plane in the pipeline, it'll probably be the same as the basic trainer platform (simplified logistics and maintenance).

As for anti-armour ops, the only risk with using a slower turboprop aircraft is that it'd be susceptible to opposing fast jets and SAMs. These turboprop platforms weren't meant for contested air space -- hence why the JF-17 with longer-range weaponry (especially guided AGMs, ARMs, and AAMs on multiple ejector racks) would be better.

Ultimately, there's no way the PAF (or most countries) will get the 'ideal' CAS platform. It'll have to be a mix of turboprops and JF-17s in the end. That said, the PAF tried in the 1970s by asking for the A-7 and the Jaguar, but those efforts didn't come to pass, so it settled on the Chinese A-5. Then the COIN/CT ops of the 2010s happened, and the PAF relied on the F-16s (and appears to be moving towards giving the work to the JF-17s).

The one plane that looked really good -- i.e., the Brazilian-Italian AMX -- somehow came too late for the PAF (i.e., after the 1970s when the PAF first thought of an attack aircraft) and too early (production ended pre-2001). Had the AMX just entered production in the late 1970s or after 2001, we probably wouldn't be having this convo.

I think the step forward now should be to configure the JF-17 Block-1 or Block-2s for the attack role. There are 50-odd ASELPODs on order, so the PAF seems to be moving towards that direction, and we'll definitely see LGB use (alongside the REK PGB).