Should Pakistan Air Force go for J-16?

[MastanKhan]

hence my point... we are building the aircrafts with china in Pakistan and even then we dont have the technology... what is the use of such partnership... pakistan is looking for JF-17's market and no country is willing to buy it.. china has imposed sanction that pakistan cannot sell JF-17s for the next 10 years...

China backs Pak moves to safeguard its security - thenews.com.pk

this means forever Pakistan cannot sell this air craft as, by then the technology of JF 17 will be obsolete.. we should do partnership with other countries but with some prestige and decorum... on a leveled ground!! not just like ignore all the bye-laws and award all the contracts to china..

as far as your last paragraph is concerned.. it is a moronic and stupid assumption (ignore my french)... see the example of Iran.. it is an isolated country in the world.. but has the courage to challenge US and whole EU... their space technology is years ahead of Pakistan.. tell me what Pakistan has significantly achieved by joining hands with china! nobody in this world is your friend my dear.. business is business and cup of coffee is cup of coffee

Hi,

For JF17 sales---it just does not happen like that---. The best aircraft of its time the Rafale had no takers for the longest time---its production line was coming to an end---it was losing its aircraft engineers right and left---and just before it was about to die---the libyan conflict gave it a new life---india placed the order.

Fighter aircraft is not your Honda civic---that you want everyone to buy it rright from day one----pakistan is dangling the carrot----but it is the paf that does not want to make an immediate sale of this aircraft----first to fulfill its own needs.

Even though iran is an isolated country---it still has a lots of petroleum to sell.

And whosoever told you or made you believe in 'business is business and a cup off coffee is a cup of coffee' is absolutely out of touch with the realities of life---.

If that is what you believe in---live your lie like that---and I say to others---make friends amongst your own and amongst others---black brown yellow or white---. Just to base your acquintance on money alone is absolutely ******---you will get what you deserve---when the money runs out---you are gone---it is better to make friends---because friends go out of their way to help out friends---regradless of race color creed or gender.

It is basic 101 in any business sales---make friends with your customers---make them like you---they will come and spend their hard earned money at your place of business---.

 

[MM_Haider]

For JF17 sales---it just does not happen like that---. The best aircraft of its time the Rafale had no takers for the longest time---its production line was coming to an end---it was losing its aircraft engineers right and left---and just before it was about to die---the libyan conflict gave it a new life---india placed the order.

Fighter aircraft is not your Honda civic---that you want everyone to buy it rright from day one----pakistan is dangling the carrot----but it is the paf that does not want to make an immediate sale of this aircraft----first to fulfill its own needs.

the point is that our friend china has barred pakistan from selling the aircraft for ten years.. that's what the news says.. the question is why?? read below excerpt from the quoted news..

The Chinese government did not agree with a proposal from Pakistan for selling JF-17 multi-purpose fighter planes produced by Pakistan and China jointly. Pakistan has received offers for the sale of the planes about four times more than what these planes cost Pakistan. The Chinese have asked Pakistan not to sell the planes before the expiry of 10 years of the production of the same.

Even though iran is an isolated country---it still has a lots of petroleum to sell.

yes they sell petroleum but from research point of view they are ahead and dont rely on others... we should also do the business with other friendly countries! no argument on that

And whosoever told you or made you believe in 'business is business and a cup off coffee is a cup of coffee' is absolutely out of touch with the realities of life---.

If that is what you believe in---live your lie like that---and I say to others---make friends amongst your own and amongst others---black brown yellow or white---. Just to base your acquintance on money alone is absolutely ******---you will get what you deserve---when the money runs out---you are gone---it is better to make friends---because friends go out of their way to help out friends---regradless of race color creed or gender.

friendship should be on equal terms.... it should not be like giving all the contracts to one country violating all the procurement rules.. thanks God SC has barred GoP from giving Islamabad safe city project to chinese company Huawei...

SC declares Rs21 bn Safe City Project illegal - thenews.com.pk


On a final note! let's agree to disagree because i think our discussion is a bit off topic... i believe in friendship on equal grounds.. not like slave and master relationship.. its high time we should make our independent foreign policy and learn a lesson from our friendship with US.. Its not about me and you... its about aboutr future generations..

 

[batmannow]

The best tactic of defense is active initiative, right dude?. Most importantly, you got China to watch your back!

Well, thanks
Ya you are absoutly right!
Active initiative is that , pakistan should realize the correct threat level?
Which isn't only india any more alone, nato +americans are the major threat in the region, & with their acrtive militry basess & their huge naval assests around asia pasific & middlest !
With J-16s in the pakistani airspace , we can hve the confidence to stop & decrese. Any misadventure against itself & the region .
Well , I know with integretion of chinese stallite links , yes you guys are watching our backs , & its really a pride & joy to hve your great nation , supporting us .
Thankyou friend!

 

[batmannow]

the point is that our friend china has barred pakistan from selling the aircraft for ten years.. that's what the news says.. the question is why?? read below excerpt from the quoted news..

The Chinese government did not agree with a proposal from Pakistan for selling JF-17 multi-purpose fighter planes produced by Pakistan and China jointly. Pakistan has received offers for the sale of the planes about four times more than what these planes cost Pakistan. The Chinese have asked Pakistan not to sell the planes before the expiry of 10 years of the production of the same.



yes they sell petroleum but from research point of view they are ahead and dont rely on others... we should also do the business with other friendly countries! no argument on that



friendship should be on equal terms.... it should not be like giving all the contracts to one country violating all the procurement rules.. thanks God SC has barred GoP from giving Islamabad safe city project to chinese company Huawei...

SC declares Rs21 bn Safe City Project illegal - thenews.com.pk


On a final note! let's agree to disagree because i think our discussion is a bit off topic... i believe in friendship on equal grounds.. not like slave and master relationship.. its high time we should make our independent foreign policy and learn a lesson from our friendship with US.. Its not about me and you... its about aboutr future generations..

MK, roger that!
The problem is most of us , don't realize that the old bankrupt captalist system has failed to give the sustainable growth rate to the US , thus the whole economy has became under preasure & under threat!
The rules & principles of that failed system , can only make you selfish animal , a creature of greed & lust.
Bt we can't stop ourselves following the same systems ?

I fully support your view of things , also I am sick & tired with only foucusing india , as our only enemy on earth , I think in very near future , the whole situation is going to change, so thus our enemies???

 

[Viper0011.]

I am very much tempted to answer that question but it is best to resist the temptation.

Allow me to take a shot at it ? First you guys will cry like crazies, especially to Russia due to engines. Than one of your generals will come online and tell the media "we are working on indigenous designs such as Pak-Fa, etc. So this is 'previous' decades technology and doesn't impact India's supremacy".

Then a couple of other generals will talk to the media in more details about how scared the birds and cows are in India due to this and that they now need F-22 (or similar Indian or Russian or European jets) as that's the ONLY solution to this problem. And that way, more funding will be given. The FACT will remain unchanged......3:1 modern jet ratio lol. Love it, too predictable of a game !!

 

[Kompromat]

Buddy, to fly dual engine heavy fighter bombers for just training is a plain suicide of PAF operational cost management. Right now according to PAF's top brass, the current selection of your planned jets is good enough. Stick to single-engines for now.




Very well said



You really don't seem to have progressed beyond 1965 air war. Wake up.

Now coming to the point, right now if there is something you need badly and desperately are gunships.

You need attack helicopters the most right now that are able to resist 7.62 mm fire, dodge RPGs and out-maneuver jagged mountains of FATA to hunt TTP in your mountainous districts. Without a potent platform to conduct CAS against TTP, your Army will suffer more casualties for no reason.

So rather than focusing on fixed wing heavy jets that won't serve you anywhere in the current war you're engaged or SAMs that won't be used against intruding NATO jets, get new gunships that can save the lives of scores of PA soldiers and commandos.

I, was speaking in relation to Pak-India scene not the WOT. I totally agree with you on Gunships, we are craving for them !

Buddy, to fly dual engine heavy fighter bombers for just training is a plain suicide of PAF operational cost management. Right now according to PAF's top brass, the current selection of your planned jets is good enough. Stick to single-engines for now.

I am, talking about a handful of jets not an entire squadron. Trust me having a few of these birds as part of our CCS aggressors training at PAF Base Mushaf will outweigh the logistical and operating costs. We would be able to train out pilots better through a robust and realistic training program to face the MKI threat in the best possible way.

 

[MilSpec]

Ignorance is a bliss....care to elaborate with the exception of Consortium partners, how many NATO countries operate twin engine fighters, while US may have several twin engine machines, it's latest development/investment is on single engine F-35 jsf, not to mention other countries lining up to buy it. Turkey is replacing it's twin engine Phantoms with new model F-16 and one wonders why UAE decided to have a single engined beefed up rather than going for anything out there.
US aircraft carriers set sail with a dozen other ships, it would be interesting to see how the IAF sends it's huge MKIs into battle without other smaller fighters to protect it from a multi prong attack...... can it afford such a luxury in a battle scenario.
Since you are based in UK, and are an MKI fan, i'am sure you heard what happened to the mighty MKI on the sidelines of Indra Danush 2010.....when the gloves came off.

instead how many major airforces around the world operate twin engine platforms?
US, russia, India, China, Spain, France, China,UK, Germany, Israel, Singapore, Japan, Australia, Turkey, Saudi, Iran....

 

[Windjammer]

instead how many major airforces around the world operate twin engine platforms?
US, russia, India, China, Spain, France, China,UK, Germany, Israel, Singapore, Japan, Australia, Turkey, Saudi, Iran....

It's also worth remembering that PAF, was operating a twin engine fighter (F-6/ MiG-19) long before India. (HF-24/Maurat).
And i don't have to remind you the crash ratio of twin engine Jaguars, compared to dingle engine F-16s, the Jaguar which incidentally unlike the PAF F-16s never once fired in anger was inducted shortly before the Fighting Falcon.

 

[帅的一匹]

Allow me to take a shot at it ? First you guys will cry like crazies, especially to Russia due to engines. Than one of your generals will come online and tell the media "we are working on indigenous designs such as Pak-Fa, etc. So this is 'previous' decades technology and doesn't impact India's supremacy".

Then a couple of other generals will talk to the media in more details about how scared the birds and cows are in India due to this and that they now need F-22 (or similar Indian or Russian or European jets) as that's the ONLY solution to this problem. And that way, more funding will be given. The FACT will remain unchanged......3:1 modern jet ratio lol. Love it, too predictable of a game !!

Do you know how much does it cost IAF to buy F22?

 

[batmannow]

It's also worth remembering that PAF, was operating a twin engine fighter (F-6/ MiG-19) long before India. (HF-24/Maurat).
And i don't have to remind you the crash ratio of twin engine Jaguars, compared to dingle engine F-16s, the Jaguar which incidentally unlike the PAF F-16s never once fired in anger was inducted shortly before the Fighting Falcon.

Sorry jammer,
Bt why our brians still stuck with indian threat?
Why couldn't we talk about real & clear hostile situation in afghanistan, & the threat from allies & nato?
Its really mind blowing , that we allways forget to see under our nose!

Obsesion with the single seaters & countering a high level multi-objective threat is 2 different ball games ?
All the major airpowers , allways hve huge quantities of twin engine fighter jets in different specialized roles & that's a good approch?
There no harm in getting a few sqdrns of twin engine fighters, instead hving debts on the numbers of the downed single or twin engines?
If. Someone can't take care of its eggs its not our problem, bt rejecting them for that reason isn't be called wisness either?
It goes for evry one , single ones or twin ones , if you take good care none will gowing down without a fight!
Jst think about F-7 crashes , they are single ones, so do we need to stop flying them?
Hope not!

 

[HAIDER]

Hi,

The raid on the reactor was a smart bomb-----.

I keep telling you guys----and you people don't listen---you are not fighting a war with yourself----your enemy is india---what does india has and what impresses india most and what makes it really uncomfortable and where lies indian psyche is what need to be addressed.

There are stupid and unrealistic examples being brought out---we are talking about a massive twin tail twin engine heavy weight air craft with the right in your face kind of personality and a big load---what is it---3 to 4 times that of the F6 or jf17----.

Have you people ever thought that why does the u s still operate the B52's when it may have over a 1000 f16's to do the job---or why does it have the super heavy of all the B2 bomber---the heaviest of he heavy---it is for shock and massive scale of destruction anywhere it hits---when there is a never ending chain of bomb blasts that shakes the very nerves inside of your soul---makes the knees go jello and takes the fight out of you.

Why is the A10 warthog being given a new lease on life---because of the heavy bomb load in can carry and what it can do the enemy mobile columns and armour---.

Bomber is only useful when two arch enemy has huge distance. Otherwise in Pak India scenario whole border is 24/7 surveillance across 200 miles inside out. Don't know about India, but for Pakistan border crossing time for any plane is in minutes not hours. So, these SU30 may be good if any standoff between India and China. But still these Russian heavy weight planes are not battle proven yet. Only three planes are battle proven. F14, F15 and F16. F14 is expired , F15 at its final upgrades. F35 will take over F15 place. But F16 has new shape and no chance of retirement. Well, US is switching to single engine.

 

[Viper0011.]

Do you know how much does it cost IAF to buy F22?

You missed the sarcasm out of the post man. Re-read it. it was a humorous post. Not really selling F-22's to India. The US will be the ONLY country to keep the F-22's. Not even Europe will have them bad boys!

 

[MastanKhan]

It's also worth remembering that PAF, was operating a twin engine fighter (F-6/ MiG-19) long before India. (HF-24/Maurat).
And i don't have to remind you the crash ratio of twin engine Jaguars, compared to dingle engine F-16s, the Jaguar which incidentally unlike the PAF F-16s never once fired in anger was inducted shortly before the Fighting Falcon.

Hi,

When we talk about twin engine here---we are not talking about the F6 or the A5's or the phantoms---we are talking in the league of F18's---Su30's, eurofighter, rafale, F15 type of fighter aircraft---.

Bomber is only useful when two arch enemy has huge distance. Otherwise in Pak India scenario whole border is 24/7 surveillance across 200 miles inside out. Don't know about India, but for Pakistan border crossing time for any plane is in minutes not hours. So, these SU30 may be good if any standoff between India and China. But still these Russian heavy weight planes are not battle proven yet. Only three planes are battle proven. F14, F15 and F16. F14 is expired , F15 at its final upgrades. F35 will take over F15 place. But F16 has new shape and no chance of retirement. Well, US is switching to single engine.

Hi,

Or the enemy has twice / thrice the number of ground troops and assets like armour----.

 

[帅的一匹]

You missed the sarcasm out of the post man. Re-read it. it was a humorous post. Not really selling F-22's to India. The US will be the ONLY country to keep the F-22's. Not even Europe will have them bad boys!

I mean how India is gonna tackle with the threat if Pak possess J-16? F22 is definitely not the solution here.

This is a forum, we bring any kind of possibility in.

 

[帅的一匹]

Bomber is only useful when two arch enemy has huge distance. Otherwise in Pak India scenario whole border is 24/7 surveillance across 200 miles inside out. Don't know about India, but for Pakistan border crossing time for any plane is in minutes not hours. So, these SU30 may be good if any standoff between India and China. But still these Russian heavy weight planes are not battle proven yet. Only three planes are battle proven. F14, F15 and F16. F14 is expired , F15 at its final upgrades. F35 will take over F15 place. But F16 has new shape and no chance of retirement. Well, US is switching to single engine.

F-35 is never never never gonna replace F-15. No army could afford the risk of retiring battle proved twin-engines beast and start new one with all the bet. If this is the case, it will be F-22, just leave F-35 alone.