Should Pak learn from the past vis-a-vis Afghanistan?

[Adecypher]

I trust Allah but as the old arabian proverb says "Trust in Allah but tie your camel".

Of course; that is given.

I don't know your age

I have an old soul ...

but after the soviet withdrawal I saw Karachi deteriorate with drugs and klashnikov culture in the 1980s. I do not want that to happen again. Mind you that was the last time, our GDP% and per capita income was higher than Gangudesh.

Well actually last time I checked Karachi is already faced with big drug usage problems especially nowadays it so openly used in the Universities so this issue had to be addressed on war footings.

 

[Varunastra]

That's a good point except Kashmiris can't fight like the Afghans. I trust Allah but as the old arabian proverb says "Trust in Allah but tie your camel".
I don't know your age but after the soviet withdrawal I saw Karachi deteriorate with drugs and klashnikov culture in the 1980s. I do not want that to happen again. Mind you that was the last time, our GDP% and per capita income was higher than Gangudesh.


How about you stop state-terrorism in Kashmir? Read HRW and AMINTL reports to point yourself in the right direction.

Why do you guys have such a massive ego? Who says we want to have better relations with you or prosper with you? I swear you guys have the highest ego per unit of accomplishment.

After Kashmir valley (not even Ladakh) - we want absolutely nothing to do with you. Prosper by yourself.

I'm quite sure there are many business folk, farmers who would like better relations with India, they might badmouth India in open but give the proper avenues and they'll be more than willing, who doesn't want prosperity? . It's not ego just facts, war helps noone and trade and good relations benefits everyone, especially when the trade relations are with a growing economy with India.
See that's where the problem is. Even with all the right thoughts you still can't think past Kashmir and take it as some sort of holy war which just needs to be closed. There would have been much lesser insurgency and bloodshed if Pakistan didn't support kashmiris to take up arms and you accuse us cause we fight back.
When it comes to prospering by ourselves we are doing pretty well despite our shortcomings, Pakistan is the one who stands to gain more if trade relations improve getting access to such a huge growing market, but ahh hume toh bass Kashmir chahiye.

 

[Chhatrapati]

A Pakistani keeping emotions aside wrt Kashmir issue, now that's something you don't see everyday.

Relax, they'll be shouted down. I read somewhere, Pakistanis have brilliant strategies but they mostly end up blowing up on its own face.

After Kashmir valley (not even Ladakh) - we want absolutely nothing to do with you. Prosper by yourself

Right, so we're supposed to ignore your claims of entire Kashmir upto Ladakh and parts of Gujarat. Today you want Kashmir, then Gujarat, so on and so forth. Expansionism was alright when it was in the early stages, new country there will be an urge to expand its borders. But once you settle down, those plans are met with larger resistance. Kashmir was legally acceded to India as per the rules set by the British. Why should we give it away after 3 wars (where you failed to achieve anything) and enormous bloodshed.

 

[SkyWolf]

Why should we give it away after 3 wars (where you failed to achieve anything) and enormous bloodshed.

1/3rd or 30000+ sq km of Kashmir is ours due to 1948 war and you are saying we did not achieve anything?
Do you guys listen to yourself?
Do you believe your own nonsense?
Is this some sort of a coping mechanism where you blurt out stuff like this?

We have Gilgit, Baltistan and Azad Kashmir - we denied you access to all important central asia, we took the most beautiful part of all of pakistan away from your grubby hands and we achieved nothing?

Those people are infinitely happier in poor Pakistan than indian-administered kashmiris in big, filthy-rich, shooperpower India. How is that not an achievement?

 

[Maula Jatt]

Now that Afghan theater is controlled by a sort-of-an-ally, should we revert to our past behavior?

ie. giving refuge to militant organizations, using talib to fight in Kashmir?

This brings terrible disrepute to our country in the world. Often these militants turn against the state or get into stupid sectarian rivalries.

I believe this policy has been terribly ineffective and self-defeating.

Instead - we should focus on trying to convince the Taliban to soften their stance and to allow railroads, highways to connect central Asia with cpec and of course single out India along with their broken akhand bharat dreams.

now with Iran willing to work with Taliban, china-Iran investment, pipelines from Russia -- this is a tremendous opportunity to make Pakistan an international hub for commerce instead of terrorism. Cant be done with bombs going off in every city and town.

rather than focusing on Kashmir, we should secure our western border, take care of BLA and TTP. We need peace and order.

I am afraid the other approach will simply get us on FATF blacklist, EU/US shitlists.

I wish we could be economically strategic for a mere second.

Agree with you, it isn't working and
something needs changing

I am proud of what the country and it's millitary has achieved with maintaining a balance despite spending peanuts on it's millitary for decades, that shows we most certainly have brains, will only if we put our mind to it

Like if you look at it neutraly how this balance is maintained despite no serious backing with the millitary budget, it's nothing short of brilliance

So if we use this energy into the economic sphere and couple that with our location (a lot of countries in the world are rich because of thier locations), we can achieve a lot

So our world view needs changing

but for that what are we going to do Kashmir issue

What's our next step?

Put it in the back burner for now?, Let it be a cold dispute but solve Gilgit and thier Jammu, Ladakh

Or accept it as ib rn but I am not too sure if this is the right time or the right counterpart government for something like that, it's long term damage


2 Post- There's a reason why I don't appreciate indians ruining Pak internet spaces

Monekys like @Chhatrapati are the reason,
You have nothing to offer, your stench ruin conversations, it's a conversation on what Pak should do, not India,

not interested in your dumbass views

kindly f off

 

[SkyWolf]

but for that what are we going to do Kashmir issue

What's our next step?

Put it in the back burner for now?, Let it be a cold dispute but solve Gilgit and thier Jammu, Ladakh

Or accept it as ib rn but I am not too sure if this is the right time or the right counterpart government for something like that, it's long term damage

I think Kashmir has to wait for a more opportune moment in a more limited scope (i.e kashmir valley only). For example:

1) A full blown Kashmir-owned insurgency where kashmiris start fighting like the afghans or viet-cong or the mukhti bahini. then you have a situation where you can support the fighters.

2) Coordinate or coincide a war with a full blown chinese attack in ladakh and the northeast. Both allies can then settle the territorial disputes once and for all.

3) A situation where BJP/RSS has fractured the Indian facade with their hindutva divisiveness and Non-Hindus rise up.

Until this scenario happens - we should focus on building a muscular country and economy that is ready for the right moment. To try to win through irregulars without kashmiri support or an invasion against an enemy ten times our size in mountainous terrain is insanity.

2 Post- There's a reason why I don't appreciate indians ruining Pak internet spaces

Monekys like @Chhatrapati are the reason,
You have nothing to offer, your stench ruin conversations, it's a conversation on what Pak should do, not India,

not interested in your dumbass views

kindly f off

yeah same old dubba dubba ding ding -- we are shooperpower, we are are big economy so do the needful, akhand bharat, you lost all 4 wars, no poverty in india.

Same old BS.

 

[Chhatrapati]

1/3rd or 30000+ sq km of Kashmir is ours due to 1948 war and you are saying we did not achieve anything?
Do you guys listen to yourself?
Do you believe your own nonsense?
Is this some sort of a coping mechanism where you blurt out stuff like this?

We have Gilgit, Baltistan and Azad Kashmir - we denied you access to all important central asia, we took the most beautiful part of all of pakistan away from your grubby hands and we achieved nothing?

Those people are infinitely happier in poor Pakistan than indian-administered kashmiris in big, filthy-rich, shooperpower India. How is that not an achievement?

You actually were at the outskirts of Sri Nagar before you were pushed back to the hills.

I will rephrase it, you took some greenery which seemed to be absent in most of Pakistan as it is covered for the most part by an arid region. That's why you sound like a child who got a candy when we have the Candy store.

I like how you sticked to just one point trying to squeeze the maximum after your bullshitting off "we just want the K. valley".

 

[Fahad20007]

Pakistan needs to do a cost-benefit analysis with regards to Kashmir

Is Kashmir worth enough for us becoming a pariah state? Should we host insurgents and risk them turning on us like in Swat and FATA?

 

[SkyWolf]

you took some greenery which seemed to be absent in most of Pakistan as it is covered for the most part by an arid region.

Punjab --- maybe you heard of it.... it's kind of green.
I am sure denial of access to afghanitan, turkmenistan, uzbekistan, tajikistan is trivial

That's why you sound like a child who got a candy when we have the Candy store.

Good cope.

Your akhand bharat dream was vaporized in pakistan's infancy.
cope.

 

[313ghazi]

Now that Afghan theater is controlled by a sort-of-an-ally, should we revert to our past behavior?

ie. giving refuge to militant organizations, using talib to fight in Kashmir?

This brings terrible disrepute to our country in the world. Often these militants turn against the state or get into stupid sectarian rivalries.

I believe this policy has been terribly ineffective and self-defeating.

Instead - we should focus on trying to convince the Taliban to soften their stance and to allow railroads, highways to connect central Asia with cpec and of course single out India along with their broken akhand bharat dreams.

now with Iran willing to work with Taliban, china-Iran investment, pipelines from Russia -- this is a tremendous opportunity to make Pakistan an international hub for commerce instead of terrorism. Cant be done with bombs going off in every city and town.

rather than focusing on Kashmir, we should secure our western border, take care of BLA and TTP. We need peace and order.

I am afraid the other approach will simply get us on FATF blacklist, EU/US shitlists.

I wish we could be economically strategic for a mere second.

Our previous approach to Afghanistan was stupid. We should abandon it forever.

Plenty of country have proxy forces, Russians are all over Libya, Syria, Ukraine - blackwater is another example. They control they yet have plausible deniability. They don't outsource it to a wild west of Jihadis.

Our Afghanistan approach should focus on;

1. Our internal security and controlling the border.
2. This should be expanded to border security in the Afghanistan/Pakistan/Iran borders.
3. Stopping smuggling across these borders
4. Facilitating and expanding trade
5. Diplomatic support to Afghan govt, particularly in international arena
6. Providing skills, materials and people to help rebuild Afghanistan
7. Training Afghan security forces and other vital institutions
8. Trying to get an inclusive, stable govt in Afghanistan
9. Connectivity through Afghanistan to central Asia.
10. Denial of Afghan territory to anti Pakistan elements.

Lets try to be a good neighbour, focus on development and security - but lets also be sensible and keep our doors locked when we're not using them to enter/leave our home.
=============

wrt Kashmir - anything short of taking Kashmir will ultimately result in more Pakistani territory left. The kuffar next door only stays in line when you have a sword on it's neck and a boot up it's arse.

We should provide covert military support to Kashmiri freedom fighters as well as other entities fighting the Indian state. We should have full control of the people we use, like the US and Russia use contractors like Blackwater and Wagner.

 

[Maula Jatt]

I think Kashmir has to wait for a more opportune moment in a more limited scope (i.e kashmir valley only). For example:

1) A full blown Kashmir-owned insurgency where kashmiris start fighting like the afghans or viet-cong or the mukhti bahini. then you have a situation where you can support the fighters.

2) Coordinate or coincide a war with a full blown chinese attack in ladakh and the northeast. Both allies can then settle the territorial disputes once and for all.

3) A situation where BJP/RSS has fractured the Indian facade with their hindutva divisiveness and Non-Hindus rise up.

Until this scenario happens - we should focus on building a muscular country and economy that is ready for the right moment. To try to win through irregulars without kashmiri support or an invasion against an enemy ten times our size in mountainous terrain is insanity.

I think there is a consencious that economy must be at the forefront but the issue is can we do both

Keep a reasonable millitary that won't get invaded in 3-4 weeks and this is more than enough time for a conflict between nuclear powers, and also China is literally at thier borders - so good enough imo

our gdp to defense percentage is higher than them by about a 1%, which is normal as long as our % stays within the reasonable levels of max 4.5% after that it's trouble

but they'll need to increase thier budget too as now China is in the picture, so if they go up we'll be forced to do something about that

So should we simply ignore and not respond cause we have avoided that temptation up till now

Unlike USSR which was competing, Pak realized the difference and was never in competing part
It's alliances and punching above your weight within your budget

But in the end I think turning loc into IB is fine by me but most certainly not at this moment

Because they're not even giving you good cop, bad cop, it's just bad cop all around

Accepting something now sets a bad precedence, of only bad cop approach working in the future too, this is not the way one should build and start relationships

So turning it into IB is something that we should consider, if they don't agree and are not interested in any negotiations we always have the 3 options you mentioned and we can play this game for next 20 years

IK can politically survive it especially if he wins the next election and the Geo economics angle, peace gesture from army itself is giving me vibes that compromise can take place but since the other side is so set in stone, you also need to say something, do something till they show some flexibility

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

I think there is a consencious that economy must be at the forefront but the issue is can we do both

Keep a reasonable millitary that won't get invaded in 3-4 weeks and this is more than enough time for a conflict between nuclear powers, and also China is literally at thier borders - so good enough imo

our gdp to defense percentage is higher than them by about a 1%, which is normal as long as our % stays within the reasonable levels of max 4.5% after that it's trouble

but they'll need to increase thier budget too as now China is in the picture, so if they go up we'll be forced to do something about that

So should we simply ignore and not respond cause we have avoided that temptation up till now

Unlike USSR which was competing, Pak realized the difference and was never in competing part
It's alliances and punching above your weight within your budget

But in the end I think turning loc into IB is fine by me but most certainly not at this moment

Because they're not even giving you good cop, bad cop, it's just bad cop all around

Accepting something now sets a bad precedence, of only bad cop approach working in the future too, this is not the way one should build and start relationships

So turning it into IB is something that we should consider, if they don't agree and are not interested in any negotiations we always have the 3 options you mentioned and we can play this game for next 20 years

IK can politically survive it especially if he wins the next election and the Geo economics angle, peace gesture from army itself is giving me vibes that compromise can take place but since the other side is so set in stone, you also need to say something, do something till they show some flexibility

Both CAN be done but it will take many years, possibly decades. Firstly we need to improve our economy; fully industrialized; improve the living standard of our people and gain the ability to indigenously produce advanced weapons systems. We also need to build up our nuclear arsenal and range to unprecedented levels. Then and ONLY then will our will with regards to ALL of Kashmir prevail.

I think there is a consencious that economy must be at the forefront but the issue is can we do both

Keep a reasonable millitary that won't get invaded in 3-4 weeks and this is more than enough time for a conflict between nuclear powers, and also China is literally at thier borders - so good enough imo

our gdp to defense percentage is higher than them by about a 1%, which is normal as long as our % stays within the reasonable levels of max 4.5% after that it's trouble

but they'll need to increase thier budget too as now China is in the picture, so if they go up we'll be forced to do something about that

So should we simply ignore and not respond cause we have avoided that temptation up till now

Unlike USSR which was competing, Pak realized the difference and was never in competing part
It's alliances and punching above your weight within your budget

But in the end I think turning loc into IB is fine by me but most certainly not at this moment

Because they're not even giving you good cop, bad cop, it's just bad cop all around

Accepting something now sets a bad precedence, of only bad cop approach working in the future too, this is not the way one should build and start relationships

So turning it into IB is something that we should consider, if they don't agree and are not interested in any negotiations we always have the 3 options you mentioned and we can play this game for next 20 years

IK can politically survive it especially if he wins the next election and the Geo economics angle, peace gesture from army itself is giving me vibes that compromise can take place but since the other side is so set in stone, you also need to say something, do something till they show some flexibility

There can NEVER be peace between Pakistan and india. The sooner ALL Pakistanis realize this the sooner our situation will improve.

 

[SkyWolf]

Our previous approach to Afghanistan was stupid. We should abandon it forever.

Plenty of country have proxy forces, Russians are all over Libya, Syria, Ukraine - blackwater is another example. They control they yet have plausible deniability. They don't outsource it to a wild west of Jihadis.

Our Afghanistan approach should focus on;

1. Our internal security and controlling the border.
2. This should be expanded to border security in the Afghanistan/Pakistan/Iran borders.
3. Stopping smuggling across these borders
4. Facilitating and expanding trade
5. Diplomatic support to Afghan govt, particularly in international arena
6. Providing skills, materials and people to help rebuild Afghanistan
7. Training Afghan security forces and other vital institutions
8. Trying to get an inclusive, stable govt in Afghanistan
9. Connectivity through Afghanistan to central Asia.
10. Denial of Afghan territory to anti Pakistan elements.

Lets try to be a good neighbour, focus on development and security - but lets also be sensible and keep our doors locked when we're not using them to enter/leave our home.
=============

wrt Kashmir - anything short of taking Kashmir will ultimately result in more Pakistani territory left. The kuffar next door only stays in line when you have a sword on it's neck and a boot up it's arse.

We should provide covert military support to Kashmiri freedom fighters as well as other entities fighting the Indian state. We should have full control of the people we use, like the US and Russia use contractors like Blackwater and Wagner.

Terrific points on Afghanistan. I agree with Kashmir but I don't like our use of LeJ, LeT. It's like keeping cobras for pets. It is a strategy that blows up in our face. It also lacks chivalry.

 

[SkyWolf]

I think there is a consencious that economy must be at the forefront but the issue is can we do both

Keep a reasonable millitary that won't get invaded in 3-4 weeks and this is more than enough time for a conflict between nuclear powers, and also China is literally at thier borders - so good enough imo

our gdp to defense percentage is higher than them by about a 1%, which is normal as long as our % stays within the reasonable levels of max 4.5% after that it's trouble

but they'll need to increase thier budget too as now China is in the picture, so if they go up we'll be forced to do something about that

So should we simply ignore and not respond cause we have avoided that temptation up till now

Unlike USSR which was competing, Pak realized the difference and was never in competing part
It's alliances and punching above your weight within your budget

But in the end I think turning loc into IB is fine by me but most certainly not at this moment

Because they're not even giving you good cop, bad cop, it's just bad cop all around

Accepting something now sets a bad precedence, of only bad cop approach working in the future too, this is not the way one should build and start relationships

So turning it into IB is something that we should consider, if they don't agree and are not interested in any negotiations we always have the 3 options you mentioned and we can play this game for next 20 years

IK can politically survive it especially if he wins the next election and the Geo economics angle, peace gesture from army itself is giving me vibes that compromise can take place but since the other side is so set in stone, you also need to say something, do something till they show some flexibility

No need to agree to LOC as IB. Indian rightwingers are continuing to corner Kashmiris to the point that even the Kashmiris will become like Viet Cong. No need to give up anything. Wait for the right moment whether it is now or later. My problem is our actions are often poorly thought out... kargil, 1965 etc.

 

[Chhatrapati]

Punjab --- maybe you heard of it.... it's kind of green.
I am sure denial of access to afghanitan, turkmenistan, uzbekistan, tajikistan is trivial

Lol... Maybe you should check the weather map of your country. Kinda, would-be, maybe...
You need a reality check. Central Asia is sparsely populated desert, you are overselling your importance for India as some connection to Central Asia. Its actually the Central Asians who want the trade route so that they can export their commodities to the 7th largest consumer market in the world. More than half of Afghans export goes to India. You guys never leveraged your position, in fact you leveraged it in the opposite direction denying Indian exports. But hey Pakistanis think everything from a security perspective, and being obsessed with it will make you run to IMF 22 times, and probably will declare bankruptcy.

Good cope.

Your akhand bharat dream was vaporized in pakistan's infancy.
cope.

Yuck! Do you think we want to add close to 600 million poor and unproductive people? Get outta here.