Should ISI be helping India?

[daredevil]

Its suits my view point ? well if you think so. It triggered from the video in TOI

1) Zardari accept the request for ISI Chief in first place he then met gen Kiyani. Pak will not hand over terror suspects: Zardari-News-The Times of India
2) Zardari was towing familiar line which was taken during Musharaf regime.
3). Why ISI was ISI brought under civil control then the decesion retracted in few hours ? (BBC NEWS | South Asia | Spy agency confusion in Pakistan)

There are two power centers in Pakistan, Civilian Govt. and Army. Civilian govt. is probably dealing with civilian issues while all the Strategic and Intelligence issues are under the control of Army. So Zardari is power less in this matter.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Its suits my view point ? well if you think so. It triggered from the video in TOI

1) Zardari accept the request for ISI Chief in first place he then met gen Kiyani. Pak will not hand over terror suspects: Zardari-News-The Times of India
2) Zardari was towing familiar line which was taken during Musharaf regime.
3). Why ISI was ISI brought under civil control then the decesion retracted in few hours ? (BBC NEWS | South Asia | Spy agency confusion in Pakistan)

Fine, it suits the current Indian media's mood of vilifying Pakistan, and finds willing takers amongst Indian's with a similar mindset.

As to the veracity of the claims, I outlined in my previous post why the argument of the military making Zardari backtrack on all 3 issues is invalid.

 

[Goodperson]

There are two power centers in Pakistan, Civilian Govt. and Army. Civilian govt. is probably dealing with civilian issues while all the Strategic and Intelligence issues are under the control of Army. So Zardari is power less in this matter.

Who does Army report to ?
You are forgetting ISI If you google you will get more information.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

A president of a nation is expected to know what he says & not just shoot off his mouth. If he says they are operating in his boundaries, who does he expect to control them ? This is exactly why US shoots missiles into Pak with impunity, coz they are not in control of GOP & this is what the world fears most.

How is it the the fabled ISI which seems to know everything does is not able to figure out who these 'non state actors' are ? Obviously , they enjoy patronage form the ISI about which the Pak Pres can do nothing.

In fact i feel there is no need to provide evidence of any kind, their existence is being admitted by the Pak Pres himself, all the GOP has to do is to track down these ppl . The biggest "if' is that does GOP have the courage to do it ?

Obviously..No.

He didn't shoot of his mouth in this instance, you are having trouble understanding nuance. He made no absolute statement - he said that there was a possibility of non-state actors carrying this out. And he said nothing about not controlling them, but as I have argued, it is also unreasonable to expect him, the state, to control everything,especially given the challenges Pakistan faces, and any developing country faces.

The US is firing missiles at groups in FATA specifically, and probably with tacit Pakistani approval. The situation there is different.

I don't think I or the GoP have ever claimed that the ISI knows everything, so why bring up this canard? The ISI is like any other institution, it will have failures and successes, and its capabilities are limited by the amount of resources it has. If we had the capability to 'know and control everything' not one single terrorist or criminal act woudl occur in Pakistan.

Evidence is needed to try and convict any suspects. People should not be arrested and extradited without going through due process. India needs to cooperate in this regard.

 

[Goodperson]

Fine, it suits the current Indian media's mood of vilifying Pakistan, and finds willing takers amongst Indian's with a similar mindset.

No comments for me, You will more info about GOP fiasco on them on Net from non Indian sources.

As to the veracity of the claims, I outlined in my previous post why the argument of the military making Zardari backtrack on all 3 issues is invalid.

Decision to retract putting ISI under civilian rule was done in hours. Not much time of deliberations except for refusal by Army.

 

[daredevil]

Who does Army report to ?
You are forgetting ISI If you google you will get more information.

Army reports to President, but real decision are taken by CAOS.

ISI is part of Army.

 

[Goodperson]

Army reports to President, but real decision are taken by CAOS.

Thats what I am saying in my posts in this thread.

Chicken or EGG question right ?

ISI is part of Army.

I know.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Who does Army report to ?
You are forgetting ISI If you google you will get more information.

Please get your facts staright.

All officers in the ISI are seconded from the three arms of the Military and are rotated in and out. The DG is, obviously, frequently changed. There is no omnipresent cabal in the ISI to run a 'state within a state'.

The reason why the ISI gets a bad rap domestically is because previous DG's have acted, at the behest of politicians or the Army leadership, to interfere in politics and rig the system. Even that indicates that the ISI is in fact beholden to the power center, be it the Army chief or the civilian leadership.

There is nothing to indicate that the institution itself is rogue, the structure of the ISI does not allow it. It is some of the 'staff', at various times, that one could argue against.

 

[third eye]

He didn't shoot of his mouth in this instance, you are having trouble understanding nuance. He made no absolute statement - he said that there was a possibility of non-state actors carrying this out. And he said nothing about not controlling them, but as I have argued, it is also unreasonable to expect him, the state, to control everything,especially given the challenges Pakistan faces, and any developing country faces.

The US is firing missiles at groups in FATA specifically, and probably with tacit Pakistani approval. The situation there is different.

I don't think I or the GoP have ever claimed that the ISI knows everything, so why bring up this canard? The ISI is like any other institution, it will have failures and successes, and its capabilities are limited by the amount of resources it has. If we had the capability to 'know and control everything' not one single terrorist or criminal act woudl occur in Pakistan.

Evidence is needed to try and convict any suspects. People should not be arrested and extradited without going through due process. India needs to cooperate in this regard.

GOP must grant others the same level of intellect as it gives to itself.

Possibility ??? Is this how a head of state speaks ? either he knows or doesn't. These words are used by a stock broker not a President.

Challenges faced by nations that impact itself are fine, but when it spreads to the region with no control of the state is when ppl begin to sit up & take notice ( and action..as US`does).

You say the US is firing msls into Pak with the tacit approval of the GOP. what Govt will allow others to shoot at its citizens ??

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

No comments for me, You will more info about GOP fiasco on them on Net from non Indian sources.

You made the argument, you back it up. I have quite clearly laid the case for why the link between the three issues is invalid, and how each one has its own dynamics.

Decision to retract putting ISI under civilian rule was done in hours. Not much time of deliberations except for refusal by Army.

Not sure about 'hours', I thought the notification wasn't suspended until a day or so later, but yes, disagreement was conveyed quickly, because it was a bad decision that made no sense.

That it was a bad decision (to move the ISI under the IM) was amply illustrated by analysts and editorials in the Pakistani papers, who are typically critical of any military interference.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

GOP must grant others the same level of intellect as it gives to itself.

Possibility ??? Is this how a head of state speaks ? either he knows or doesn't. These words are used by a stock broker not a President.

Challenges faced by nations that impact itself are fine, but when it spreads to the region with no control of the state is when ppl begin to sit up & take notice ( and action..as US`did).

You say the US is firing with the tacit approval of the GOP. what Govt will allow others to shoot at its citizens ??

When one is not certain of what the facts are one uses 'possibility'. Has India provided evidence? No. But it has made accusations, so of course Zardari woudl say it is possible (nothing is impossible). This line of argument, that he cannot even use the word 'possibility' is just ludicrous.

I am sure the US provided evidence that her troops were being attacked by various militant groups across in some agencies, and since Pakistan does not have the resources to start a full fledged war in every agency of FATA, we possibly gave them tacit approval to attack militants. Would we prefer to do that ourselves, of course, but our army is tied up in the East so we have to move in a slower fashion.

Now in the case of any alleged suspects that India wants in connection with the Mumbai attack, Pakistan has indicated that she herself is willing to act against any suspects, provided India also provide us with evidence. Therefore, the onus is on India to get this process moving by doing so.

 

[Goodperson]

Please get your facts staright.

All officers in the ISI are seconded from the three arms of the Military and are rotated in and out. The DG is, obviously, frequently changed. There is no omnipresent cabal in the ISI to run a 'state within a state'.

The reason why the ISI gets a bad rap domestically is because previous DG's have acted, at the behest of politicians or the Army leadership, to interfere in politics and rig the system. Even that indicates that the ISI is in fact beholden to the power center, be it the Army chief or the civilian leadership.

There is nothing to indicate that the institution itself is rogue, the structure of the ISI does not allow it. It is some of the 'staff', at various times, that one could argue against.

hmmm, ISI get bad rap not only domestically.

Critics of the ISI say that it has become a state within a state, answerable neither to the leadership of the army, nor to the President or the Prime Minister. The result is there has been no real supervision of the ISI, and corruption, narcotics, and big money have all come into play, further complicating the political scenario. Drug money was used by ISI to finance not only the Afghanistan war, but also the ongoing proxy war against India in Kashmir and Northeast India.
Directorate for Inter-Services Intelligence [ISI] - Pakistan Intelligence Agencies

WASHINGTON — American intelligence agencies have concluded that members of Pakistan’s powerful spy service helped plan the deadly July 7 bombing of India’s embassy in Kabul, Afghanistan, according to United States government officials.
Pakistanis Aided Attack in Kabul, U.S. Officials Say -NY Times

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

^^^ GP:
My usage of 'domestically' was to refer to the ISI's 'domestic interference'. Nonetheless, this is tangential to the point I was making in my post above.

 

[third eye]

When one is not certain of what the facts are one uses 'possibility'. Has India provided evidence? No. But it has made accusations, so of course Zardari woudl say it is possible (nothing is impossible). This line of argument, that he cannot even use the word 'possibility' is just ludicrous.

I am sure the US provided evidence that her troops were being attacked by various militant groups across in some agencies, and since Pakistan does not have the resources to start a full fledged war in every agency of FATA, we possibly gave them tacit approval to attack militants. Would we prefer to do that ourselves, of course, but our army is tied up in the East so we have to move in a slower fashion.

Now in the case of any alleged suspects that India wants in connection with the Mumbai attack, Pakistan has indicated that she herself is willing to act against any suspects, provided India also provide us with evidence. Therefore, the onus is on India to get this process moving by doing so.

Allow me to compliment you in vainly trying to defend a poor situation ( reinforcing a failure..in military parlance).

A head of state does not use such language unless he has something to hide. Just coz Pak army is incapable of handling probs within the state, it hands over / allows outsiders to knock its own citizens !!.. and then outwardly shows resentment at it & even makes threatening noises !!!

This is getting curiouser & curiouser !!

Move in a slow fashion ? The last image I saw was the use of attack helicopters & field artillery inside the W borders of Pak by the pak army. How much faster can it get unless nuking them is what the Pak army considers as fast.

I notice you too have begun to use " possibly".

Dont know what time it is in ur part of the world but its late here.. so we'll live to fight another day ?

 

[Imran Khan]

ISI chief to brief MPs today F.P. Report

ISLAMABAD: Leader of the House in Senate and Chairman of Parliamentary Committee on National security Mian Raza Rabbani has said that representatives of Foreign, Interior and Defence Ministries and DG ISI will speak in the parliamentary committee, being held today. Briefing newsmen after the committee meeting, here on Tuesday, Raza Rabani said that the representatives of the ministries include Advisor to the Prime Minister on Interior Rehman Malik, Federal Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi, Federal Defence Minister Ahmed Mukhtar, and DG ISI Lt Gen. Ahmed Shuja Pasha. He said Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi, ANP chief Asfand Yar Wali did not attend Tuesday's meeting. Shah Mahmood Qureshi had engagement in Foreign Ministry, he added.