Should Europe Rebuild its Tank Forces?

[Archie]

That's all well and good but the Leo, Abrams and Challenger are far superior to anything they are up against.

Quality is the key here.

yeah but tell me,
what will happen when 800 odd Leos, Challengers and Abrams currently present in the West face off against 3000 Russian T-72s and T-90s
Europe will have to request Turkey and the house of Saud for additional tanks, since these two countries are the largest operators of western tanks outside of USA

 

[waz]

yeah but tell me,
what will happen when 800 odd Leos, Challengers and Abrams currently present in the West face off against 3000 Russian T-72s and T-90s
Europe will have to request Turkey and the house of Saud for additional tanks, since these two countries are the largest operators of western tanks outside of USA

The tanks you talk of were made to fight in the ratio that you have stated above. 800 Leo, Challs etc, I'd put my money on them by a long shot. The L/55 gun will make short work out of many of the T-series tanks.....

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

Certainly Putin would love to have the old Warsaw Pact buffer zone between Russia and NATO. With all the Warsaw Pact countries defecting to NATO that leaves Russia feeling vulnerable.

Is Russia in the mindset to role 10's of thousands of tanks into Western Europe...probably not. Eastern Europe to get their buffer back...well that's not far fetched.

So if you want to talk about tanks vs air power it makes a difference where the front is they plan on defending.

 

[Oldman1]

Europe needs first to get rid of foreign occupation and external control. Only then they can set some tasks that are needed specifically for Europe, not occupiers.

No, they need to prepare for possible Russian occupation again.

yeah but tell me,
what will happen when 800 odd Leos, Challengers and Abrams currently present in the West face off against 3000 Russian T-72s and T-90s
Europe will have to request Turkey and the house of Saud for additional tanks, since these two countries are the largest operators of western tanks outside of USA

If you combine all the tanks in Europe they have a lot more than 800 tanks. Sure the Russians have thousands but most are old like T62s and T54s and they only have a few hundred modern T90s. And the T72s are really old, even with upgrades. We still have thousands of Abrams.

 

[Thəorətic Muslim]

The more united Europe stands and that even against the US, the less chances of war against Russia and the less are new arms and techs needed.

The US is just beginning to get it's act together. Still trying to figure out how to go from a UniPolar world to MultiPolar one.

China, Russia, Rogue states Iran & N. Korea, and now you want to add a new force into the formula?

When the Georgians, Chechyns, and Ukrainians, told Russia to stop meddling....Russian tanks and troops crashed across their boarders and occupied them against their will. Big difference.

You forgot East Germany, Hungary, Czech, Poland.

Quality is the key here.

To a certain point. Remember Europe is one of the most urbanized continent in the world. Unless the Russian Armies will leapfrog the cities and face NATO in the country side tanks are not of much use in cities.

There is only so much a Highly Trained NATO soldier will be able to do against hordes of Russian Soldiers and/ or Artillery.

 

[waz]

To a certain point. Remember Europe is one of the most urbanized continent in the world. Unless the Russian Armies will leapfrog the cities and face NATO in the country side tanks are not of much use in cities.

There is only so much a Highly Trained NATO soldier will be able to do against hordes of Russian Soldiers and/ or Artillery.

That's a fair point but NATO has already prepared for that and would tackle any assault at points of entry that themselves have been prepared over the years for such a scenario.

 

[Oldman1]

The only Western nations that are strong enough to form some sort of "credible" conventional deterrence to Russia (USA/UK/France/etc) have already decided not to counter Russia in Ukraine.

That said, there is never anything wrong with strengthening your own defense sector, even if it's not going to be used in a war.

Ukraine is not part of NATO and Russia knows that. Ever see Russia invade Poland again? I doubt that.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Ukraine is not part of NATO and Russia knows that. Ever see Russia invade Poland again? I doubt that.

America did promise to protect Ukraine's sovereignty and borders in 1994, in exchange for them giving up their nuclear arsenal.

 

[Oldman1]

America did promise to protect Ukraine's sovereignty and borders in 1994, in exchange for them giving up their nuclear arsenal.

Under what type of agreement? Does it say military intervention? That be like saying China's promise of Ukraine's security as well. What did China promise?

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Under what type of agreement? Does it say military intervention? That be like saying China's promise of Ukraine's security as well. What did China promise?

Not to the extent of America's mutual defence treaty with the Philippines (which didn't help them when we took the Scarborough shoal in 2012) or America's mutual defence treaty with South Korea (which didn't help them when North Korea regularly shells them and sinks their ships).

Still, they did guarantee to protect Ukraine's borders, as long as Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons arsenal.

But the US administration has no interest in seeking confrontation with Russia, and that seems to have already been decided in the White House.

 

[Oldman1]

Not to the extent of America's mutual defence treaty with the Philippines (which didn't help them when we took the Scarborough shoal in 2012) or America's mutual defence treaty with South Korea (which didn't help them when North Korea regularly shells them and sinks their ships).

Still, they did guarantee to protect Ukraine's borders, as long as Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons arsenal.

But the US administration has no interest in seeking confrontation with Russia, and that seems to have already been decided in the White House.

Ever since the Philippines kicked us out of the there its no surprised we didn't want to help and the Chinese came in after U.S. forces left. But based on China's actions I guess they really want us back in if you notice what the Filipinos have done recently. And the defense treaty has protected South Korea because they haven't been invaded since the Korean War. North Korea has been doing this for decades, even to the point of trying to assassinate the South Korean President.

Oh and by the way, North Korea has also taken losses like losing warships and submarines, but they haven't done anything beyond that as well. China going to do something about that?

 

[Commander Reinhardt]

Not many people talking about what sort of tanks they would build, I am probably going to get massively neighseid, I think they should build something revolutionary, I am talking about a MBT armed with a miniturized version of the BAE Railgun, with high elevation arc for anti-air fire, hooked upto capacitors, powered by a diesel generator or gas turbine, that provides electricity also to the electric drivetrain, with an unmanned turret and crew inside hull! Basic munitions might consist of two types, a kinetic penetrator, and perhaps a submunition round for anti-air (depending on how big the rounds are).

There should be some savings by using smaller ammunition and electric drive train, this should be offset by rail-gun cooling systems and capacitors. Although I think there will still be weight savings, especially since the large area for storing ammunition should be reduced, which is also heavily armoured. MBT should be protected by APS like LEDS-150 which is to be used in indian tanks.

What sort of tank do you think they should build, there current stock is quiet old and boring.

 

[Penguin]

yeah but tell me,
what will happen when 800 odd Leos, Challengers and Abrams currently present in the West face off against 3000 Russian T-72s and T-90s
Europe will have to request Turkey and the house of Saud for additional tanks, since these two countries are the largest operators of western tanks outside of USA

Just 1 against 4? In 1982, when these Nato tanks were all in service, the Tank for Tank ratio was something like 40:1 in favour of the Russians.....

Not to the extent of America's mutual defence treaty with the Philippines (which didn't help them when we took the Scarborough shoal in 2012) or America's mutual defence treaty with South Korea (which didn't help them when North Korea regularly shells them and sinks their ships).

Still, they did guarantee to protect Ukraine's borders, as long as Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons arsenal.

But the US administration has no interest in seeking confrontation with Russia, and that seems to have already been decided in the White House.

Between the Koreas there is still a state of war (it is only ceasefire): hardly representative a situation, nor comparable to Philippines.

What sort of tank do you think they should build, there current stock is quiet old and boring.

At last someone pops the key question: rebuild ... with what!?

Future combat system?

 

[Audio]

UK- ~220 in service, 100+ in reserve (Challenger II)
France- 200 in service, 150+ in reserve (Leclerc)
Spain - ~220 in service (Leo 2A5 or 6-localized)
Italy -200 in service (Ariete C1- roughly comparable to Leo 2A4)
Germany--225 in service (Leo 2A6)
Greece - 170 (Leo 2A6) + 183 (Leo 2A4)
Poland - 142 (Leo 2A4) + 105 (Leo 2A5)
Norway - 52 (Leo 2A5)
Sweden - 120 (Leo 2A6-localized)
Portugal - 37 (Leo 2A6)
Finland - 139 (Leo 2A4) + 100 (Leo 2A6)
Austria - 114 (Leo 2A4)
Denmark -57 (Leo 2A6)
Switzerland - 400 (Leo 2 A4)

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~2280 top of the line tanks, i didn't count anything i marked as reserve, and i also didn't count light/medium tanks in service, like T series modernizations, Pt-91, Mt-55S1 etc etc i also left out Swiss tanks from this sum, tanks from smaller countries and older models. All in all, perhaps this amounts to a further 3000 tanks, for example, Poland has 500 Pt-91's, Greece has 500 Leo 1's etc etc

but ya, i do agree, we need moar weapnZ!

^^ Uparmored, upgraded 2A4 with active defense system! I still hope to see AMAP-ADS on a Leo 2A7!

^^ LOL, amirite?

Sry for the bot like post, i just found these lovely gif's and i wanted to share.

 

[BestUsernameEver]