Should Europe Rebuild its Tank Forces?

[boomslang]

The Europeans got lazy. They are used to not having to do anything because they knew the U.S. would bail them out. If Russia rolled into Europe, the Europeans would roll over like a trained dog.

 

[Penguin]

The Europeans got lazy. They are used to not having to do anything because they knew the U.S. would bail them out. If Russia rolled into Europe, the Europeans would roll over like a trained dog.

bla bla bla

3200 produced

Main Battle Tank - Leopard 2
Mostly in EUrope.... compared tp 8800 Abrams
Main Battle Tank - M1, M1A1, and M1A2 Abrams

Production and exports[edit]
In September 1977, the German Ministry of Defence decided to go ahead with plans for production of 1,800 Leopard 2s, to be delivered in five batches. Krauss-Maffei was again chosen as the main contractor, but this time Maschinenbau Kiel (MaK), of Kiel would be a major (45%) subcontractor. Deliveries started in 1979, and by 1982 the first batch of 380 Leopard 2; 209 by Krauss-Maffei (Chassis Nr. 10001 to 10210) and 171 by Mak (Chassis Nr. 20001 to 20172) was completed. The earliest of these were fitted with an image intensifier, the last 80 with a new thermal night-sight system, and this was later retrofitted to the earlier models.

The first export customer were the Netherlands which received 445 vehicles between July 1981 and July 1986.[5] The Netherlands later resold 114 of these (and one turret) to Austria, 80 to Canada in 2007,[6] another 52 tanks to Norway, 37 to Portugal and finally 100 to Finland. Sweden also acquired 280 Leopards, 160 2A4s from German stocks, designated Stridsvagn 121, and the rest Leopard 2(S) models (designated Stridsvagn 122) similar in configuration to the Leopard 2A5 variant. Spain first leased and later bought 108 2A4 models in the interim period before 219 license-built Leopard 2A6 models (Leopard 2E) were ready to replace them. Switzerland bought 380 between 1987 and 1993. Some countries also use versions of the tank, including Poland, Denmark, Finland, Greece (license-built Leopard 2Hel), Turkey and Chile. Germany has fielded about 2,125 Leopard 2s in various versions. The design was also tested by the UK in the 1980s, which ultimately decided on the Challenger 1. The Australian Army evaluated ex-Swiss Army Leopard 2s as a replacement for its Leopard 1 tanks in 2003 but instead selected the M1A1 Abrams.

Leopard 2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

US Army's last tanks depart from Germany
April 4, 2013
From World War II on through the Cold War, tanker units were a heavy presence in Germany. At its peak, Germany was home to 20 NATO armored divisions, or about 6,000 tanks, according to the 21st TSC.
“There is no [U.S.] tank on German soil. It’s a historic moment,” said Lt. Col. Wayne Marotto, 21st TSC spokesman

US Army's last tanks depart from Germany - News - Stripes

 

[boomslang]

bla bla bla

Over like Rover.

 

[Penguin]

Over like Rover.

bla

What is the main gun of the M1A2 again? How many US tanks in Europe at this time? Compared to how many European tanks?

Hint: MBTs ... US 29 ..... Germany 225 Leo2, France 254 LeClerc, UK 407 Challenger 2, Spain 219 Leo 2, Italy 200 Ariete , Greece 353 Leo2 plus 500 Leo 1, etc

American tanks return to Europe after brief leave - News - Stripes

 

[boomslang]

bla

What is the main gun of the M1A2 again? How many US tanks in Europe at this time? Compared to how many European tanks?

Yeah, the Germans can make the gun but it doesn't mean they'll man one. Some would fight, not like the Afghans or Iraqis' but the most would just learn Russian.

 

[Penguin]

Yeah, the Germans can make the gun but it doesn't mean they'll man one. Some would fight, not like the Afghans or Iraqis' but the most would just learn Russian.

Bla bla bla

.

See also Afghanistan Index

When U.S. forces withdrew in December 2011, 4,804 coalition military personnel had been killed in Iraq.

Multi-National Force – Iraq - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Of these 307 from Europe.

EU (UK, FR, Ger, IT alone: about $200m , not counting Spain, Greece, and many other European nations > those four alone > over 1/4 , close to 1/3 the US spending.)
Facing US: China and Russia > $178 million.

Note how Germany's expenditures alone match up to e.g. Russia's....

 

[boomslang]

Bla bla bla

.



Note how Germany's expenditures alone match up to e.g. Russia's....

Spending money and fighting are two different things.

 

[Penguin]

Spending money and fighting are two different things.

Posting BS and fighting are too. Meanwhile, is throwing money at a problem more a US or more a EU trait? Why should EU subsidize US pet-projects e.g. Iraq?

Today Washington collects “allies” as an end in itself—for instance, bringing into NATO new states with more strategic liabilities than assets. The Bush administration even pushed to include the country of Georgia, which started a war with Russia four years ago, a mad policy which would needlessly risk confrontation with a nuclear-armed power

Why Are American Troops Still Stationed In Europe? - Forbes

Nonetheless ...
Articles: Germany Announces Military Rearmament

 

[boomslang]

Posting BS and fighting are too.

So you should stop posting B.S.

 

[Penguin]

So you should stop posting B.S.

Start by SUBSTANTIATING your argument.

The Europeans got lazy. They are used to not having to do anything because they knew the U.S. would bail them out. If Russia rolled into Europe, the Europeans would roll over like a trained dog.

On defence the top four EU countries outspend Russia, irrespective of US spending.

 

[boomslang]

Start by SUBSTANTIATING your argument.

It's impossible to 'substantiate', either way whether a people would fight. I say they wouldn't. They'd roll over and let Russia take what they wanted to take. Look at Crimea. All Europe cared about was whether their homes would be toasty warm this winter. And if Russia moved into Moldova or the Baltics, Europe would stand and watch with their collective thumbs up their collective @sses, waiting for the U.S. to do something.

Start by SUBSTANTIATING your argument.


On defence the top four EU countries outspend Russia, irrespective of US spending.

But Russia will USE the stuff they bought. Europe won't.

 

[Penguin]

World War II death toll of all nations
On the ability to sustain military and civilian losses
US total losses 400000. population 1945 was 139,9 million
Dutch total losses 200000. population 1945 was 9,2 million.


USING a nation's military makes it BETTER?!?!?
> daft

Look at: what goals, extent of goals attained, role of (non)military in attainment of goals. There's more than one road that leads to Rome....

 

[Militant Atheist]

Yeah, the Germans can make the gun but it doesn't mean they'll man one. Some would fight, not like the Afghans or Iraqis' but the most would just learn Russian.

Did I get that right? Are you complementing the terrorists?

 

[boomslang]

World War II death toll of all nations
On the ability to sustain military and civilian losses

Come on... not WW2.

Did I get that right? Are you complementing the terrorists?

Not quite. The Afghans and Iraqi Armys quit, too.

 

[Militant Atheist]

Not quite. The Afghans and Iraqi Armys quit, too.

They're not motivated to fight against their own. When religion comes before your country, it doesn't get any better.