Should Arabic-Speaking Nations Replace Arabic With Roman Letters?

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

People who believe in their culture use their own language and they still reach greatness

Japanese use Japanese
Russians use Russian
Chinese use Chinese text
Koreans use Korean

The literacy problem with Arab countries is due to lack of Education system and leaders who promote educational institute, lack of jobs and overall bad governance of money and wealth.

Same with Pakistan - over population , lack of school and jobs and cities that are not governed well etc the theme is spread across Arab world.

There is decay in thought process - that has not gone beyond grade 6-7 intellect, the quality of teachers and schooling is poor and lack of food and jobs forces majority to quite school early and vast amount of folks don't even bother with school and work labor jobs in farm land

So Arabic text or roman text don't make any difference to such people

Stagnation of infrastructure, institutes and government assets is a decline that has been there ever since Ottoman empire lost their revenue collection system from sea trade routes, and it has little to do with Roman characters - or Calligraphy.

Pakistan today struggles for Tax collection , many Arab states have no tax , I wonder if they can even afford to collect taxes who would pay ?

Turkey's modern literacy rate has to with stability after ww2 and no dictators , they would have achieved greatness even with Arabic. Turkey succeeded to great extent due to having Leadership who wanted to Lead their Nation , and not subjugate them

Arab countries or even Pakistan have not figured out how to use Education & Technology to improve lively hoods

English has the power to bring people of various Modern languages together , and understand each other and it is a wonderful mode of communication , typing on computer with Calligraphy is a crazy idea


China has risen to be a leader in world Today, as Japan did in 60's and 70's because its people had leaders , who wanted to work hard for the people. China now enjoys the fruits of 40 years of progressive leadership promotion in it's ranks. Now it bears the fruit becasue these leaders have now passed policies to Protect its people and its Corporations


Behold CHINA no English in sight

This is Japan

Arab countries , to great extent Pakistan have literacy problem due to lack of leadership and sustained government long term policies for Education & Development of institutes of government - and no vision on Jobs and fair taxation

 

[Aestu]

But my question was why was Yiddish not chosen as one of the official languages of Israel? Many of the early settlers in Israel were Yiddish speaking European Jews.

Three reasons.

First, the founders of the State of Israel wanted to make the new country as inclusive as possible. Although mostly Ashkenazim themselves, they dreamed of an Israel that would be a home for all Jews, with no preference towards any ethnic group, including their own, so they felt there had to be a single language for a single people, and that wasn't Yiddish.

Second, they were deeply idealistic. Their idealism led them to perceive Yiddish as "a language of oppression" that originated from and would forever be associated with the ghettos and pogroms of the Diaspora. They wanted to leave that legacy of victimhood and exile behind, and build a new future for the Jewish people as "a nation amongst the nations".

Third, they sought to establish the new Jewish state as heir to the legacy of the Jewish Kingdom. They saw the resurrection of the Biblical language as a fulfillment of that dream.

Many Jews believe that Israel's existence today is nothing short of miraculous, and the greatest of those miracles is not Israel's military triumphs nor the migration of millions of Jews from all over the world, but the resurrection of Hebrew.

Why would a person who does not read a cereal box in normal Arabic put in some effort to read it in Latinized Arabic?

I believe it would be easier to learn it without effort, purely through immersion, as is the case with learning to read English or any other Latinized language.

Even in today the art of articulation and expressing oneself in words has not died. Try applying for a job with text message style spelling, punctuation and grammar.

Try applying for a job in King's English. In the US, that will get your *** kicked. I kid you not.

People who believe in their culture use their own language and they still reach greatness

But they often rationalize their language to do so (e.g., Japanese)

Stagnation of infrastructure, institutes and government assets is a decline that has been there ever since Ottoman empire lost their revenue collection system from sea trade routes, and it has little to do with Roman characters - or Calligraphy.

Pakistan today struggles for Tax collection , many Arab states have no tax , I wonder if they can even afford to collect taxes who would pay ? Turkey's modern literacy rate has to with stability after ww2 and no dictators , they would have achieved greatness even with Arabic Arab countries or even Pakistan have not figured out how to use Education & Technology to improve lively hoods English has the power to bring people of various Modern languages together , and understand each other and it is a wonderful mode of communication , typing on computer with Calligraphy is a crazy idea

I would say this is a confusion of ends and means.

Ultimately, a society is its people. Education and technology can't be arbitrarily imposed from the top down, the driving force has to be the social mainstream. Mass literacy is therefore a necessary precondition for the necessary political and cultural changes.

The Zionists were successful precisely because they understood the importance of creating not only political but also social institutions - amongst them the new language. Israel's strength has always been that its strength comes from its middle, not its top - from its people, not their leaders.

I don't believe that it's possible for a society to simply "invest" its way through educational problems. It's an issue here in the US as well - there is a great discontent about the perceived decline of popular education even as the system becomes ever more expensive and problematic, and a common refrain is, "we can't just throw money at the problem."

It's not simply that it's cheaper for people to learn to read Latinized Arabic through immersion, but that it's more effective and perhaps the only way to make Arabic societies more egalitarian so the other changes - amongst them the establishment of a strong, productive, engaged and taxable middle class - can take place

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Cairo is Egyptian city , and it has some problems , even when it has a high % of educated class speaking in English

Here is a Pakistani City , proudly hosting many elites who speak English
Perhaps the most educated Pakistanis live in this coastal city there are people who speak English boldly in streets and businesses.

So why are these cities suffering ? They have many bold English speakers and perhaps high % of literacy compared to rest of the country

The language you speak does not dictates greatness !!!

If we had people and visionaries like in Japan or China Muslim world would be a beacon of education and healthy living

PEOPLE can live a great life , even with non roman alphabets , provided they have PEOPLE who are leaders !!!!

Arabic Calligraphy is not to blame for this stagnation , but the true reason is lack of Leadership and sustained long term policies that yeild progress

 

[Aestu]

the true reason is lack of Leadership and sustained long term policies that yeild progress

Where do you believe leaders come from?

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

I personally am drifting between communism / socialism these days

I like the Model China employed to raise good leadership over 30 year period
a person starts with social / civil service continues to serve the people and his peers promote him based on his performance

It is a "practical system"

Reference:
Eric X. Li: A tale of two political systems | TED Talk | TED.com


Democracy does not works x_X sorry its a failed system becasue it favors the rich 2-3 families or certain groups that can be controlled from outside, the base idea is interesting but when you don't have a group of people who have great intellect to choose leaders , then the system fails. And Muslim world's problem is not having ability to choose leaders who can give prosperity to people

It really has failed in most of Moslem countries and Kings and Queens don't work either

Just watching Republican debate and just about to puke , just shows how low democracy can go , how only rich blokes can come on national tv and disrespect all Moslems. And poor guy has no chance in Democracy

 

[Aestu]

I personally am drifting between communism / socialism these days. I like the Model China employed to raise good leadership over 30 year period a person starts with social / civil service continues to serve the people and his peers promote him based on his performance Democracy does not works x_X sorry its a failed system becasue it favors the rich 2-3 families or certain groups that can be controlled from outside

You didn't really address my question. In the absence of monarchy or casteism, how does a society decide who has leadership potential and create the conditions for effective and credible leaders to emerge? How do you ensure that those who are to become leaders have the character and education to lead the people? How do you make it so the best are chosen, and not merely those who are best at getting to the top of the heap?

Socialism is an economic system. What you mean is single-party rule with a command or state-run economy (communism or fascism). Didn't Saddam and Nasser try that already? What makes you think it's going to work better the next time around? If democracy is so bad, then why do the best countries use it?

 

[Zarvan]

As I understand it, the Quran is written in Classical Arabic, not Modern Arabic - same as the Torah and Biblical Hebrew vs Modern Hebrew. So it would not be necessary to edit or otherwise change the Quran, nor give up the Arabic language itself - just change the writing system used for day-to-day purposes.

No Arabic is not much different and your option is hilarious and never going to happen and it has nothing to do with literacy rate.

 

[Aestu]

No Arabic is not much different and your option is hilarious and never going to happen and it has nothing to do with literacy rate.

Why do you believe that unschooled Westerners usually can read English but unschooled Arabic-speakers usually cannot read Arabic?

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

You didn't really address my question. In the absence of monarchy or casteism, how does a society decide who has leadership potential and create the conditions for effective and credible leaders to emerge? How do you ensure that those who are to become leaders have the character and education to lead the people? How do you make it so the best are chosen, and not merely those who are best at getting to the top of the heap?


Socialism is an economic system. What you mean is single-party rule with a command or state-run economy (communism or fascism). Didn't Saddam and Nasser try that already? What makes you think it's going to work better the next time around? If democracy is so bad, then why do the best countries use it?

With out literacy level over 80% Democracy does not works well , Muslim countries folks don't vote on "agenda" they vote along the lines of tribal relations, literacy in Muslim countries is like 39% or 50% highly inflated value , as the real numbers are low and quality of intellect is low due to poor educational institutes that doe not promote intellect thought process. Folks are taught to close their eyes and read the lines in books and accept it as it is. Most folks drop out as there is no point to get higher education when they will be doing hard labor job anyways when they are 8 years old

Its not a simple vision as to change Arabic text to Roman text that does zilch for anyone

One has to match the demographics with the system that works for that demography and characteristics of that population, some may not have ability to vote based on agenda

However, Chinese system now that is MODERN efficient system

Watch the Chinese guy describe the Chinese government system amazing system!!! Promotes a guy who works at ground level and promote him gradually, in Chinese system a poor guy can start from lowest levels in government service


Reference: (The Chinese Man gives demonstration on the Chinese Model how it works)
Eric X. Li: A tale of two political systems | TED Talk | TED.com
Its a debate to examine the gains of Chines system over the years vs misconceptions created by folks who favor democratic means of government

The top 20 leaders who decide all policies have served the country for 30-40 years!!!!

In order to reach top the member has to do

a) 30-40 Years in service , before he/she can be in last 20 people who make policies
His vision is clear due to his SENIORITY and knowledge he gained working for his country

b) His promotion is dependent on voting of people he governs

c) His promotion is dependent on his peer in civil service who see him work

d) It is a system that does not need you to be from a RICH class , YOU CAN BE A POOR
yet honest person and climb the government system by working hard. One does not need to
be from a famous family in order to be able to be the person who leads their nation with
policy making


There is no STUPIDITY of left or right a there is 1 party whose main goal is "WHAT IS BEST FOR COUNTRY" and the 10-20 wise men who make the policies are Smart / wise after 30-40 years of service that they only want the best for the people and country

• A person like Donald Trump has no chance to be in policy making position does not matter how much money he had , if he was in China

I can only wish Pakistan can scrap its broken system (failed democratic crap) and install a government system similar to the one used in China

If in Pakistan perhaps if we had 96% literacy , and the folks had intellect to choose a leader based on agenda and not family name , perhaps democracy would have worked but that not the case for last 70 years

 

[Zarvan]

Why do you believe that unschooled Westerners usually can read English but unschooled Arabic-speakers usually cannot read Arabic?

It doesn't happen those unschooled or so called unschooled either are schooled at home or have some classes at school. No where on it can happen a child can read his mother language without being taught on How to read.

 

[Aestu]

Watch the Chinese guy describe the Chinese government system amazing system!!! Promotes a guy who works at ground level and promote him gradually

TED is a mess of misinformation and propaganda. Let me point out a few things to you:

1) China has three times the population of the US, but the US is still far, far ahead in terms of R&D, rule of law, innovation and quality of life. And despite massive industrial production and horrid pollution, the gap is not going to close in our lifetimes. Almost nothing exists in China that is not a knockoff of or initiated by the West. Its bureaucratic, single-party political system plays a major role in this.

2) China's government is corrupt in a way the US government is not. If you try to bribe a judge, police officer or public official in the US, they will rebuff the bribe and you will wind up in handcuffs. This is because of the vigilance of the FBI (sting operations lol) and the nature of our political system. In China, it happens all the time. Appropriations of property for political reasons and jailings and executions for political reasons happen all the time. That's not to say the US system isn't corrupt itself (it definitely is), but there's no comparison in terms of levels of corruption.

3) Saying the CCP is a meritocracy is a laugh. The CCP has far more nepotism than the US political system. By far.

4) The American political system has endured for over 200 years. It has problems, but it has the credibility and relevance to survive into the foreseeable future. The Chinese Communist Party is creaking. It can stay in power only through martial law and rigid but brittle control over everything. No one seriously believes the CCP will still have a monopoly on power in 50 years.

And most persuasive:

5) People do crazy things to emigrate to the US. No one except starving North Koreans are hiding themselves in crates or mortgaging their fingers to coyotes to sneak into China because it's a great place to live. And that tells you something about which is the better and greater society.

My basis for what I say is talking to both Chinese students at US universities who are the children of wealthy CCP members, as well as Chinese peasants who still come to this country to open restaurants and stores. Both classes of Chinese nationals still very much see the US as the promised land - everything they want their country to one day be.

Basically this guy wants to justify the US having free trade with China, as if the Chinese government and the laws of that country are the equal in development and legitimacy as our own. China's laws and political system and the society it creates is not the equal of our own and should not be treated as such.

It doesn't happen those unschooled or so called unschooled either are schooled at home or have some classes at school. No where on it can happen a child can read his mother language without being taught on How to read.

Happens all the time in "white trash" communities here in the US.

Azad, I think you fail to understand how the US system really works. The US system is much less structured and has a broader base and that is a strength. You are correct that mass literacy is a major factor. What I think you fail to understand is that the leadership process goes both ways. It is not just that higher literacy rates in the US produce better leaders or voters (lol @ Bush, Trump & Obama). It is that the system is bigger than any one man or class of men.

I and many other Americans do believe that some ways the US is becoming more Third World - declining quality of life but also heavy-handed rule by appointment and tribalism (e.g., Affirmative Action). It just goes to show that you can't appoint and legislate your way to great leadership.

 

[Madali]

According to UNICEF, the rate of literacy in Iran among YOUTH (15-25) 98.8%. I use the youth as an indicator because it shows the effects of changes that have been occurring in last few decades.

Plus, compare the African countries. No onlyndo they use Latin alphabets but they have also adapted the language of their occupiers whether English or French! Yet, their literacy is way down.

 

[Aestu]

According to UNICEF, the rate of literacy in Iran among YOUTH (15-25) 98.8%. I use the youth as an indicator because it shows the effects of changes that have been occurring in last few decades.

Plus, compare the African countries. No onlyndo they use Latin alphabets but they have also adapted the language of their occupiers whether English or French! Yet, their literacy is way down.

Good counter

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Any country that has a guy like Donald Trump calling Moslems unfriendly shows the system is messed up

He is running for the head of state , Donald Trump



Mr ... I made many deals , and I will make a deal and I will negotiate it and make it favorable
I am a rich guy , I sold property , and I made money , lots of money , more money then you can make. I will build a wall and then ask someone else to pay for it smart. Allies in Arab country , oh I will charge them money

Its is really hard , to take democracy seriously when you have Donald Trump the champion representing the system , calling Moslems unfriendly

he called the most libral Arab Prince "Dopey" ...........

Waleed = 28 Billion Dollar net worth vs Donald 3-4 Billion dollar net worth

Does this sleek Prince , who is the most libral of Arabs always helping USA with donations Dopey

Donaldo is not is the only guy who owns property you know

Oh and this just came in from Mexico

The Mexican government has made its first direct response to Donald Trump's pledge to build a wall along the two countries' border — and make Mexico pay for it.

"I say it emphatically and categorically: Mexico, under no circumstance is going to pay for the wall that Mr. Trump is proposing," Mexican Treasury Secretary Luis Videgaray said late Wednesday to Milenio television.

 

[Malik Alashter]

According to UNICEF, the rate of literacy in Iran among YOUTH (15-25) 98.8%. I use the youth as an indicator because it shows the effects of changes that have been occurring in last few decades.

Plus, compare the African countries. No onlyndo they use Latin alphabets but they have also adapted the language of their occupiers whether English or French! Yet, their literacy is way down.

Add to that all south America countries speak European language and use Roman alpha bet yet those countries no better than the Arab countries except Brazil a a country has some industry other than that they are struggling like the Arabs.

the problem isn't with our Alpha bet our problem with our regimes.