Sharper claws for Coast Guard as 30 advanced copters set for induction

[Abingdonboy]

Just wondering why CG would need a medium lift system?

As @Ankit Kumar has pointed out, it is for the range and endurance that these platforms bring. The ICG is mandated to provide SAR across the entire Indian coastline and far out to sea. In the long run (around 2025-27) the IN is going to hand over full responsiblity for SAR and patrol in the Indian EEZ to the ICG so the IN can be released to return to force projection.

I saw two benefits
1. If it was about TOT , bringing in HAL would have been better , HAL along with M&M would have built the system, and some time ahead in future started along with M&M our own MMRH.
Something similar to what DRDO along with Kalyani are doing in ATAGS project. Of course I am counting HAL here as efficient.

I still feel that HAL has the requisite expertise in house to build the IMRH without needing to get involved in a JV to modify the H225M and there is no reason to combine to two efforts. Furthermore, as I have said, the H225M is to cover the immediate requirements of the users, a JV of the kind you have stipulated would add needless delays to the entire process.

 

[migflug]

1. Naval utility helicopters (NUH) -- $2 billion -- Bell Helicopters-429 and Super Lynx 300 of AgustaWestland and
AS565 Panther of Airbus which formed jv with mahindra. its a 4.3 ton light class helicopter.
2.Naval Multi-role Helicopter (NMRH) 16 S-70B Seahawk
3. Medium weight multirole helicopter 120+ most likely to win by s 70b or ec725
4. ICG EC725 of France-based Airbus Helicopters

why are we creating zoo of same kind of helicopters. if we have choosen s 70 as NMRH why not mass produce it for both ICG and another 123 NMRH or either go completely for EC725.
Why dont MOD/ services think of commonality for f*** shake.
and im not even talking about IA & IAF helos .

 

[Abingdonboy]

1. Naval utility helicopters (NUH) -- $2 billion -- Bell Helicopters-429 and Super Lynx 300 of AgustaWestland and
AS565 Panther of Airbus which formed jv with mahindra. its a 4.3 ton light class helicopter.

Augusta Westland have no chance whatsoever, I doubt they will secure another Indian defence contract within our generation.

2.Naval Multi-role Helicopter (NMRH) 16 S-70B Seahawk
3. Medium weight multirole helicopter 120+ most likely to win by s 70b or ec725

Bro, you are conflating things here. it is not a case of either or. The IN has a requirement for 10 ton NMRH AND 12 ton NMRH, the S-70B (10 ton) is not running against the EC-725(H225M)/S-92 (12 ton) . The 10 ton NMRH are for ASW roles and for the smaller ships (frigates/corvettes), the 12 ton NMRH are for ASW and utility roles that will serve from larger platforms (destroyers, carriers, LHD, supply vessels etc).

 

[migflug]

Augusta Westland have no chance whatsoever, I doubt they will secure another Indian defence contract within our generation.


Bro, you are conflating things here. it is not a case of either or. The IN has a requirement for 10 ton NMRH AND 12 ton NMRH, the S-70B (10 ton) is not running against the EC-725(H225M)/S-92 (12 ton) . The 10 ton NMRH are for ASW roles and for the smaller ships (frigates/corvettes), the 12 ton NMRH are for ASW and utility roles that will serve from larger platforms (destroyers, carriers, LHD, supply vessels etc).

i know the both class but the difference is so minute that i dont like having different class of helos for just two tonnes. Also if we are going for both class why not have the helos from same manufacturer like
s70/s92 .

 

[Abingdonboy]

Also if we are going for both class why not have the helos from same manufacturer like
s70/s92 .

Fair enough but where the IN is is a by-product of history; the S-70B emerged as the best ASW for their 10 ton ASW requirement whilst the ICG won the 12 ton MRH competiton and Mahindra have tied up with Airbus to produce the H225M in India for the IN/IAF/ICG/IA whilst Sikorsky has made no such offer as of yet. If the 10 and 12 ton NMRH contracts were to be begun anew then the common system approach you have proposed may be favoured but this is where we are and unless one wants to waste another 5-6 years re-tendering these deals it is better to stick to things as they are, the issues aren't that great.

 

[Agent_47]

Bro, you are conflating things here. it is not a case of either or. The IN has a requirement for 10 ton NMRH AND 12 ton NMRH, the S-70B (10 ton) is not running against the EC-725(H225M)/S-92 (12 ton) . The 10 ton NMRH are for ASW roles and for the smaller ships (frigates/corvettes), the 12 ton NMRH are for ASW and utility roles that will serve from larger platforms (destroyers, carriers, LHD, supply vessels etc).

I thought the same but @Ankit Kumar is saying S-70B and H225M are competing.
Also, 4.5 ton class heli is also suppose to be for AWS role.

 

[Penguin]

Range and endurance primarily ....?

More so as USCG operates helicopters in a similar fashion => light helicopter complemented by its heavier cousin , it surely should have some marked advantages.... ( I assume so...)
@Penguin

Yeah, range and endurance

HH-65 official designation: short range recovery, medevac, search and rescue helicopter
MH-65C "airborne use of force" (armed), over the horizon cutter boat guidance

• Empty weight: 3,128 kg (6,896 lb)
• Max takeoff weight: 4,300 kg (9,480 lb)
• Range: 658 km (409 mi; 355 nmi)

It replaced Sikorsky HH52

• Empty weight: 5,083 lb (2,306 kg)
• Max. takeoff weight: 8,300 lb (3,764 kg)
• Range: 412 nmi (763 km, 474 mi)

Short range > about 700km > about 4 ton helicopter

The Sikorsky MH-60T Jayhawk is a multi-mission, twin-engine, medium-range helicopter operated by the United States Coast Guard for search and rescue, law enforcement, military readiness and marine environmental protection missions.

• Empty weight: 14,500 lb (6,580 kg)
• Max. takeoff weight: 21,884 lb (9,926 kg)
• Range: 700 nautical miles (802 mi, 1,300 km)

MH-60T is designed to fly a crew of four up to 300 mi (483 km) offshore, hoist up to 6 additional people on board while remaining on-scene for up to 45 minutes and return to base while maintaining an adequate fuel reserve

It replaced the Sikorsky S-61R

• Empty weight: 13,341 lb (6,051 kg)
• Max. takeoff weight: 22,050 lb (10,000 kg)
• Range: 779 mi (677 NM, 1,254 km)

Medium range > about 1300km > 10 ton helicopter

H225M 'Super Cougar' / caracal, developed from the Super Puma

• Empty weight: 5,330 kg (11,751 lb)
• Max takeoff weight: 11,200 kg (24,692 lb)
• Range: 857 km (533 mi; 463 nmi)
• Ferry range: 1,325 km (823 mi; 715 nmi)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocopter_EC725

I'm not sure H225M can fold like this (which makes MH-60 more suitable for ship ops):

It is designed to fold up like and take no more space than SH-3 Sea king

India uses SH3 Seaking on its larger ships.

• Empty weight: 11,865 lb (5,382 kg)
• Max. takeoff weight: 22,050 lb (10,000 kg)
• Range: 621 mi (1,000 km)

and Westland Sea King

• Empty weight: 14,051 lb (6,387 kg)
• Max. takeoff weight: 21,400 lb (9,707 kg) (overload weight)
• Range: 764 mi (664 nmi, 1,230 km)

Super Puma can fold blades, not tail? Super Frelon has both folding blades and tail.

https://defence.pk/threads/replacing-pakistan-navys-westland-sea-king-helicopters.342808/page-7

 

[Ankit Kumar]

I thought the same but @Ankit Kumar is saying S-70B and H225M are competing.
Also, 4.5 ton class heli is also suppose to be for AWS role.

Will be, technically it should have been S92... but when the last time RFI was issued it was reported that Sirkosky is going ahead with S70 against AW101 and EC725.It was reported that RFI was sent to Kamov too , but nothing more was specified.
Untill the new RFI is issued it will not be clear what Sirkosky is offering

The last RFI stated weight to be in between 9-12 tons.

A good read.
http://www.news18.com/blogs/india/s...icopter-plans-and-purchases-10879-748238.html

 

[Armani]

@Abingdonboy

I think the time is right for HAL to begin it's work on the IMRH. Right now they only got LCH and LUH in the pipeline (with work on the former mostly complete)...once LUH production starts, instead of sitting on their a$$es doing nothing but upgrades of the older choppers...HAL should begin studies on a medium helicopter.

Preferably in the 12-ton category as that gives us more room for upgrade/modification based on IAF/IN's ASQRs when they are filed. If not a common platform that can spawn off both 10 and 12-ton variants.

As you said, the R&D process & prototyping itself would take around 10 years...so by the time Mi-17s start coming up for replacement, we'll have something to show.

Do you think a stretched Dhruv (with as much commonality as possible) with a 5-blade rotor would be a good idea? I'm surprised they haven't studied that yet.

But for the time being and the foreseeable future, purchase of S-70B and CH-148/EC725 is inevitable.

 

[Penguin]

Will be, technically it should have been S92... but when the last time RFI was issued it was reported that Sirkosky is going ahead with S70 against AW101 and EC725.It was reported that RFI was sent to Kamov too , but nothing more was specified.
Untill the new RFI is issued it will not be clear what Sirkosky is offering

The last RFI stated weight to be in between 9-12 tons.

The S-92 helicopter uses a new airframe with dynamic components based on the S-70/H-60 components. You could possibly see a combined bid, with S-92 and S-70, which would give a mix of different capabilities but with advantage of shared logistics and maintenance.

S-70i

• Empty weight: 5347 kg (11,790 lb)
• Max. takeoff weight: 9,979 kg (22,000 lb)
• Range (internal fuel): 463 km, (288 mi, 250 nmi) with 20 min reserve

S-92

• Empty weight: 15,500 lb (7,030 kg)
• Max. takeoff weight: 26,500 lb (12,020 kg).
• Range: 539 nmi (999 km)

CH-148

• Empty weight: 15,600 lb [S-92 data] (7,070 kg)
• Max. takeoff weight: 28,650 lb (12,993 kg)
• 450km without refuelling / 950km
  
  • (at max speed rather than best range speed? operational range with loiter time?)

AW-101 (Merlin HM1)

• Empty weight: 10,500 kg (23,149 lb)
• Max. takeoff weight: 14,600 kg (32,188 lb)
• Range: 833 km (450 nmi, 517 mi)

I'm not sure H225M can fold like this (which makes MH-60 more suitable for ship ops):

Super Puma can fold blades, not tail? Super Frelon has both folding blades and tail.

https://defence.pk/threads/replacing-pakistan-navys-westland-sea-king-helicopters.342808/page-7

Addendum:

A navalised variant of the Super Puma has also been manufactured for performing anti-submarine warfare and anti-surface warfare missions. In such a configuration, the Super Puma is modified with additional corrosion protection, a folding tail rotor boom, a deck-landing guidance system, sonar equipment, and the nose-mounted Omera search radar. For the anti-surface role, it can be armed with a pair of Exocet anti-ship missiles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocopter_AS332_Super_Puma

Maybe not standard, but definitely possible for the H225M.

 

[Abingdonboy]

@Abingdonboy

I think the time is right for HAL to begin it's work on the IMRH. Right now they only got LCH and LUH in the pipeline (with work on the former mostly complete)...once LUH production starts, instead of sitting on their a$$es doing nothing but upgrades of the older choppers...HAL should begin studies on a medium helicopter.

Preferably in the 12-ton category as that gives us more room for upgrade/modification based on IAF/IN's ASQRs when they are filed. If not a common platform that can spawn off both 10 and 12-ton variants.

As you said, the R&D process & prototyping itself would take around 10 years...so by the time Mi-17s start coming up for replacement, we'll have something to show.

Do you think a stretched Dhruv (with as much commonality as possible) with a 5-blade rotor would be a good idea? I'm surprised they haven't studied that yet.

But for the time being and the foreseeable future, purchase of S-70B and CH-148/EC725 is inevitable.

From what I understand, the IMRH won't be sanctioned for another 2-3 years (at least) so we can expect it in service from 2027-8 at the earliest. I don't see there being 10 ton and 12 ton variants ut a single platform (preferably a 12 ton platform). I would hope that the IN is on board from early on otherwise there could be another ALH type issue where the IN has difficulty in adopting it for their use. From what I understand the IA and IAF will (again) be the prime customers for the IMRH.


As for a "stretched ALH", I doubt it. The IMRH will have to be an entirely new design but I'm sure a lot of the tech and lessons from the ALH will be incorporated into the IMRH just as has been done for the LCH and LUH.

 

[Dandpatta]

Can't there be an 'ER' version of the Dhruv? Something like how Bell has developed an entire fleet models of copters - why can't we design something extra based on current Dhruv platform? It can't be that difficult ?
For example, Bell Huey had many variants .

 

[Dandpatta]

https://instagram.com/p/BH_rWTtjOMc/
Something like this