Replacing Pakistan Navy's Westland Sea King helicopters.

[Penguin]

SH-60

Just to give an indication:
Folded length of the AW-101 is just under 16m, versus 12,5m for the SH-60
Folded height of the AW-101 is 5,2m versus just over 4m for SH-60
Folded width AW101 is 5,5m versus 3.3 for SH-60

For hangar space, consider:
12,5x3,3=42 square meter 'footprint'
16x5,5= 88 square mere 'footprint'

That's where the issue is, not flight so much the flight deck size (which will usually take the largest naval heli's (but not e.g. CH-47, CH-53)

 

[airmarshal]

AW-101 is HUGE, I doubt the majority of your vessels could support such a helo.

Yeah I realized later looking at its specs.

If you have seen a Sea King in person, that too is quite huge but obviously that is not a good measure of the size of the craft.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Yeah I realized later looking at its specs.

If you have seen a Sea King in person, that too is quite huge but obviously that is not a good measure of the size of the craft.

I have seen and been inside both. The cabin space inside the AW-101/Merlin is noticeably much much larger as is the entire airframe. As has been pointed out the S-70B/MH-60 airframe has the same "footprint" as the Sea King, which surprises me as the S-70B/MH-60 has always looked smaller than the Sea King to me but then I haven't seen the S-70B/MH-60 in person.

 

[airmarshal]

Good information never knew , why people went for these and not land based choppers on ships

However in Pakistan's case if we have no options I think we would be ok to maintain these choppers with wash down and cover ups at sea bound ships, a simple plastic cover sheet over blades and engine should be enough for accidental splash of sea water

The whole folding the blades perhaps seems nice idea for Air craft carriers which we don't have to begin with

99% of times sea water would not be hitting the chopper anyways as sea is relatively calm

If we have no choice , I say put more MI-35 calibre choppers as mandatory aviation choppers for Navy

Thats not right. You have not understood the fundamental argument about comparison of sea based ans land based helicopter.

Lets say sea water does not hit the helicopters as you say sea is calm, exposure to sea environment alone is enough to effect the service of land based heli in a sea based role.

Also folding rotors is not a 'nice to have' feature, its must-have feature. You will also notice sea based helicopters have more fastening points than a land bases one.

Just little things. I dont know the major differences as they have been elaborated somewhere in this thread.

I have seen and been inside both. The cabin space inside the AW-101/Merlin is noticeably much much larger as is the entire airframe. As has been pointed out the S-70B/MH-60 airframe has the same "footprint" as the Sea King, which surprises me as the S-70B/MH-60 has always looked smaller than the Sea King to me but then I haven't seen the S-70B/MH-60 in person.

Yeah you are right. S-70 'looks' so much smaller but I m very surprised reading your post.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

@Penguin
Technically SH-60 \ SH-70 & AW-101 Merlin can easily land and even be housed in the hanger of F-22P and Perry Class. Type 21 can only accommodate it on the deck.

As far as SA321 is concerned it can only be accommodated on deck on all PN Ships, provided rotter space is available.

If I have understood correctly.

 

[Basel]

It appears that some honourable members do not realize the difference between land based and ship based operations.

Naval helos, especially for the ASW and Search & Rescue duties that Sea King so admirably performs, suffer long exposure to the salt water spray. Saltwater corrosion is one of the major problems encountered when operating helicopters at sea. Gas turbine engines are prone to loss of performance because of saltwater corrosion and salt encrustation. Damage resulting from corrosion can quickly make the helicopter non-operational. Naval version of the helicopters has structural components made of materials that are less susceptible to saltwater corrosion.

In addition to the above most Naval helicopters have floatation gear, folding rotor blades and a securing system to ensure safe shipboard stowage when not in use. Therefore any land based helicopter such as MI-17 would require major modifications before it can be used for shipboard operations.

Russians, originators of the MI-17, only use MI-17 for transport. Their main naval helicopters are Kamov Ka-31 & Ka -27.

Can now Pakistan purchase Ka-31, Ka-27s or similar system Russia can offer which can perform jobs done by Sea Kings?

 

[Penguin]

Aerospatiale SA321 Super Frelon (aka Z-8, which is base to Z-18 and AC313)
General characteristics

• Crew: five
• Capacity:
  • 27 passengers or
  • 15 stretchers
• Length: 23.03 m (75 ft 6⅝ in)
• Rotor diameter: 18.90 m (62 ft 0 in)
• Height: 6.66 m (21 ft 10¼ in)
• Disc area: 280.6 m² (3,019 ft²)
• Empty weight: 6,863 kg (15,130 lb)
• Max. takeoff weight: 13,000 kg (28,660 lb)
• Powerplant: Three × Turboméca Turmo IIIC turboshafts, 1,171 kW (1,570 hp) each

AW-101 Merlin
General characteristics

• Crew: 3–4
• Capacity: 26 troops (38 passengers) or 5 tonnes of payload or 4 stretchers (with sonar removed).[142]
• Length: 19.53 m-fuselage length (64 ft 1 in)
• Rotor diameter: 18.59 m (61 ft 0 in)
• Height: 6.62 m (21 ft 8¾ in)
• Disc area: 271.51 m² (2,992.5 ft²)
• Empty weight: 10,500 kg (23,149 lb)
• Max. takeoff weight: 14,600 kg (32,188 lb)
• Powerplant: 3 × Rolls-Royce Turbomeca RTM322-01 turboshafts, 1,566 kW (2,100 shp) (take-off power) each

@Penguin
Technically SH-60 \ SH-70 & AW-101 Merlin can easily land and even be housed in the hanger of F-22P and Perry Class. Type 21 can only accommodate it on the deck.

As far as SA321 is concerned it can only be accommodated on deck on all PN Ships, provided rotter space is available.

If I have understood correctly.

Merlin in F22P hangar? ?????
Z-8/Z-18 would seem more congruent with EH-101

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

SH-60

Just to give an indication:
Folded length of the AW-101 is just under 16m, versus 12,5m for the SH-60
Folded height of the AW-101 is 5,2m versus just over 4m for SH-60
Folded width AW101 is 5,5m versus 3.3 for SH-60

For hangar space, consider:
12,5x3,3=42 square meter 'footprint'
16x5,5= 88 square mere 'footprint'

That's where the issue is, not flight so much the flight deck size (which will usually take the largest naval heli's (but not e.g. CH-47, CH-53)

https://defence.pk/gallery/showfull.php?photo=12644
The F22P "The helicopter hangar was also redesigned to accommodate more China-made ESM/ECM facilities."(F-22P PNS Zulfiquar / Type 057 Jiangwei-II
"Each of the F-22P frigates can carry Z9EC anti-submarine helicopters"(Sword / F-22P Class Frigates - Naval Technology

Merlin in F22P hangar is not possible.
Z-8 \ Z-18 in F22P hanger is not possible.

AW-101 Merlin
General characteristics

• Crew: 3–4
• Capacity: 26 troops (38 passengers) or 5 tonnes of payload or 4 stretchers (with sonar removed).[142]
• Length: 19.53 m-fuselage length (64 ft 1 in)
• Rotor diameter: 18.59 m (61 ft 0 in)
• Height: 6.62 m (21 ft 8¾ in)
• Disc area: 271.51 m² (2,992.5 ft²)
• Empty weight: 10,500 kg (23,149 lb)
• Max. takeoff weight: 14,600 kg (32,188 lb)
• Powerplant: 3 × Rolls-Royce Turbomeca RTM322-01 turboshafts, 1,566 kW (2,100 shp) (take-off power) each

Merlin in F22P hangar? ?????
Z-8/Z-18 would seem more congruent with EH-101

 

[Inception-06]

just a imagination of the chinese Z-9 Sea version:

notice the weapon load and the sonar.

Z-9C:

Z-9D

 

[Penguin]

SUD SA 321G SUPER FRELON:
_____________________ _________________ _______________________
spec metric english
_____________________ _________________ _______________________
main rotor diameter 18.9 meters 62 feet
tail rotor diameter 4 meters 13 feet 2 inches
fuselage length 19.4 meters 63 feet 8 inches
length, tail folded 17.07 meters 56 feet
footprint length 23.03 meters 75 feet 7 inches
height (tail rotor) 6.66 meters 21 feet 10 inches
height (rotor head) 4.94 meters 16 feet 2 inches
empty weight 6,865 kilograms 15,130 pounds
max loaded weight (1) 13,000 kilograms 28,660 pounds
max cruise speed 250 KPH 155 MPH / 134 KT
service ceiling 3,100 meters 10,200 feet
hover ceiling (2) 2,700 meters 8,860 feet
hover ceiling (3) 1,100 meters 3,610 feet
range 1,020 kilometers 665 MI / 550 NMI

The Aerospatiale Puma, Super Puma, & Cougar

Sud-Aviation SA.32I0 Super Frelon

Mission Heavy helicopter, primarily for military use and particularly for naval ASW operations.

Powerplant:
Three Turbomeca Turmo IIIC-3 turboshaft engines, each rated at 1.500 s.h.p.

Dimensions
Diameter of main rotor, 62ft;
Diameter of tail rotor, 13ft 1.5 in;
Overall length (rotors operating), 76ft;
Height, 22ft;
Track, 14ft 1 in;
Wheelbase, 21ft 6in;
Width folded, 17ft 1 in;
Length folded, 56ft;
Cabin dimensions, 22ft 11 in by 75in wide by 72in;
Usable volume, 777 cu ft (plus 123 cu ft over rear ramp).

Weights (land-based in brackets)
Empty, 13,5581b (13,228);
basic equipped, without crew, 16,4251b (14,660);
normal gross, 24,2501b (24,250);
maximum gross, 26,4501b (26,450);
max IGE, 6,560ft ISA+22°C, 24,4401b;
max IGE 10,000ft ISA, 26,0151b;
max IGE 10,000ft ISA + 22°C, 22,4851b.

Performance
Max speed at 24,250 lb ISAs-l, 127kt (135);
cruise at same conditions, 113kt (119);
max vertical climb, i,l80ft/min (1,180);
max climb with forward speed, 2,500ft/min (2,500);
climb at max cont power, l,970ft/min (1,970);
service ceiling 24,250 lb take-off, 15,750ft (15,750);
two-engine service ceiling, 10,500ft (10,500);
range with 5,925 lb payload and 30min reserve: 203 n.m. (250);
ferry range with 30min reserve: 670 n.m. (730);
fuel consumption at s-l, 2,105lb/hr in hover or 15lb/n.m. in cruise;
endurance in ASW mission of half-hover, half-cruise under 100 kt, 15min reserve, up to ISA+37°C: 4hr;
endurance minesweeping 60 n.m. from base, 15min reserve: 2hr 50min;
towing pull at 25kt, ISA+32°C. 10,000lb.

1964 | 2036 | Flight Archive

 

[Steve781]

Westland doesn't even exist as a company any more!

 

[Penguin]

just a imagination of the chinese Z-9 Sea version:

notice the weapon load and the sonar.

Z-9C:
Z-9D

And?
That is not any different than you would get with e.g. a Sea Lynx (2 lightweigh ASW torps / sonar or 4 Sea Skua / radar) or the Original AS365 Dauphin (2 lightweight ASW torps / sonar or 4 AS-15 / radar).

Westland doesn't even exist as a company any more!

Neither does Agusta. And?You wouldn't want to get A-129 gunships now?

Illegal Request

 

[PakArmyFTW]

I'm no expert but you could use the Sikorsky SH-60 Seahawk. It's said to be able to handle anti-submarine warfare and search and rescue missions. It's used by many countries. The Sikorsky S-70 family of choppers are tried and tested, right?

Some info: kamov(dot)net/more-helicopters/sikorsky/sh-60-seahawk/

 

[fatman17]

I'm no expert but you could use the Sikorsky SH-60 Seahawk. It's said to be able to handle anti-submarine warfare and search and rescue missions. It's used by many countries. The Sikorsky S-70 family of choppers are tried and tested, right?

Some info: kamov(dot)net/more-helicopters/sikorsky/sh-60-seahawk/

US will not sell it.

 

[PakArmyFTW]

US will not sell it.

That sucks. Why wouldn't they want to sell it?