Separation of Mosque and State

[Hassan Guy]

Your second questions is enough to show you seriously lack knowledge about Islam. Every new matter is decided in light of Quran and Sunnah. And Muslim leader have to implement and as PM of Pakistan Nawaz Shareef has to duty to do it and if state fails to do its job than in Islam Muslims have to peacefully protest and force state to start implementing Islamic laws.

And who will be this muslim leader?

 

[Zarvan]

And who will be this muslim leader?

Man you are one hell of a ........ Any Muslim who leads Muslims has the duty of implementing Islamic laws and if he is not doing so than every Muslim should rise and put pressure on leader to enforce and implement Islamic Laws.

 

[Hassan Guy]

Man you are one hell of a ........ Any Muslim who leads Muslims has the duty of implementing Islamic laws and if he is not doing so than every Muslim should rise and put pressure on leader to enforce and implement Islamic Laws.

Which country currently implements/follows this system?

 

[haviZsultan]

Man you are one hell of a ........ Any Muslim who leads Muslims has the duty of implementing Islamic laws and if he is not doing so than every Muslim should rise and put pressure on leader to enforce and implement Islamic Laws.

Come on Zarvan. Lets not call people names. We respect your stance here and you have mostly put your views pragmatically without calling others names. Hope you don't start now.

As for the secular system, if the Pakistani people are locked in fanaticism and oppose it then we have to accept their decision. I am a staunch secularists but don't want anything to be shoved down anyones throat.

If its not your cup of tea fine. At least, however, be open to finding a governing solution for Pakistan-secular or not.

 

[Zarvan]

Come on Zarvan. Lets not call people names. We respect your stance here and you have mostly put your views pragmatically without calling others names. Hope you don't start now.

As for the secular system, if the Pakistani people are locked in fanaticism and oppose it then we have to accept their decision. I am a staunch secularists but don't want anything to be shoved down anyones throat.

If its not your cup of tea fine. At least, however, be open to finding a governing solution for Pakistan-secular or not.

No system of kufr will be accepted or tolerated. And will be thrown out of the window in fact buried in grave.

 

[YeBeWarned]

Give me Citizenship of Norway before people Implement Shariah in Pakistan hahaha I can't even imagine Living in a country where Hard core Religious Nut-jobs rule the State ..
@Technogaianist you can pass my Asylum Application in advance Pleaseeeeeeee

 

[Mutakalim]

The biggest Innovation (Biddah) of this century is secularism(to separate religion from State). Law of the God is supreme and should be implemented.

 

[haviZsultan]

The biggest Innovation (Biddah) of this century is secularism(to separate religion from State). Law of the God is supreme and should be implemented.

Surprisingly the first such system was introduced in muslim ruled, christian majority spain. Even the 1001 nights has much that is controversial and objectionable according to current day mullahs. But the tolerance is what is surprising in those days. It is this tolerance that the muslims of today fail to imitate yet expect the growth, wealth and power of that time, something we built with extreme care and egalitarianism.

 

[Hassan Guy]

The biggest Innovation (Biddah) of this century is secularism(to separate religion from State). Law of the God is supreme and should be implemented.

Personal faith, no place in state

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well faith is a cerntal aspect , so it is great to have however "an Educated mind" is what we crave in Government which can highlight the positive features of faith that is all about protecting minority , charity and social work

My view is Faith is fine but it is not the defecto item , the ideal case is that the people have what we call a sense of "Direction" an ability to accomodate different views and people in Government can debate and analyse the core of all issues from multiple point of view to develop a "Judgement"

If there is is a HARDliner (anyfaith) who can't view dynamics of different cultures and religions and values , it is not idea

A great leadership is somsone who can Love their faith but it does not means you have
Tunnel Vision i.e My way or the highway or if you said anything against my idea I will punch you or take out my sword and will go to Heaven mentality

The problem with Pakistan is that we have certain imported views on Wahabism growing in society which has to be tackled by Education

1- We need Urgent reform in Schools preferabbly a ban on any Un Regulated schools
2- Study religion in Schools by Educated teachers and approved criculam
3- Develop a Mind that can debate about issues


A revolutonary change can happen in Education System if we invest 3-9 Billion Dollars
Close down all Religious schools (Un Regulated) , and promote Approved center of Education (Regulated) . Ensure the students have 70% vs 30% ratio on education of needed skills vs Religious teaching.


Presently we have a segment that is brewing in Pakistan that don't have ability to Accept criticism
on the limitations of society instead of acknowleging the problems the Knee Jerk reaction is I will hit you or I will beat you up , becasue this is the PATH to Heavans

I mean look at Junaid Jamshed , few months ago he was attacked and beaten in Airport by Religious extremist becasue they could not understand his example or point of view and resorted to beating him in public over it. Today there are million people visiting his funeral

Goal:
The goal for Nation should be develop a mind that can judge a situation , and have ability to debate the issue as difficult as the conversation may be. Have ability to have the conversation and also have the composure to walk away from difficult situation. We need scholars and Educated folks who can Openly debate the laws and say look certain aspects of life have to be adjusted (As laws of society are changable unto certain extent)

For example if you are in Arctic you will not wear Shalwar Qamis becasue in your mind you think that is the ideal form of dress that Islamic people should wear not you are in the Arctic you have to adjust to the Condition of Environment you are in and it is 100% correct to adjust this issue

Nor you should resort to attacking anyone who decides to wear Jeans or Pants or T-Shirt etc (As an example)


Example:
We have people like this guy

Whose only qualification is that he attracts a low educated group or may be of certain views
During elections he gives a Sermon

"Election voting to his opponent" is haram ? !

And no one in nation knows why folks like him are in Politics or Government becuase their followers have no mandate or ability to rationally think

"The Lamb follow the sheap hearder!!!"


This person is just tip of iceberg he is prominent , corrupt and undependable yet maintains his status quo , and that is the problem that folks will follow men like him Blindly because they don't have ability to anylse and make informed judgement


Note: Also the quality of folks in Politics is low just because someone is none religious does not mean they are superb politicians we have a general lack of Youth and Leadership overall

 

[EgyptianAmerican]

https://themuslimtimes.info/2016/05...only-way-forward-for-pakistan/comment-page-1/

Pakistan needs sweeping constitutional amendments to ensure equality of citizens regardless of their faith or sect
Source: The Nation

By Muntazir Sherazi, who enjoys classic rock and politics. Often at the same time

“You are free; you are free to go to your temples. You are free to go to your mosques or to any other places of worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion, caste or creed—that has nothing to do with the business of the state.”

– Muhammad Ali Jinnah

The prophetic words by the founder of our nation clearly show what he conceived the state of Pakistan as. But looking back on our history, we can clearly see that we’re way past that.

The struggle for the recognition of Ahmadis as Muslims is a lost cause. An average Pakistani has been so brainwashed that he will never accept them as such and crimes against/persecution of Ahmadis won’t stop under the current Constitution.

Christians and Hindus are similarly marginalised, with many of Pakistani Hindus going to India and India accepting them with open arms. We know about the kidnapping and forced conversions of Hindu girls to Islam. We are similarly aware of the attacks on churches and the failure of the government to provide them with security. We are callous.

There should be sweeping constitutional amendments which declare all Pakistanis as equal citizens, regardless of their faith or sect. When your law says that a non-Muslim cannot be a president or prime minister of your country, you’re already promoting discrimination in the society and inoculating the idea that religion can be used to persecute people and to discriminate against them.

This very ideology has pushed the Pakistani society towards religious extremism and the alienation of Pakistani minorities will lead to more violent outbursts by the bearded men.

Simply put, you don’t have to agree that Ahmadis are Muslims. But this idea that Ahmadis are a subhuman species and should be persecuted accordingly is inhumane. With laws that put Ahmadi publishers of the Quran in jail, we can safely say that Zia’s Islami nizam has only divided our society on the basis of sectarianism.

I honestly think it doesn't matter, Secularism is a great system for protecting minorities, while state religion is a good way to unify the people and foster unity and nationalism using spirituality.


What it boils down to regardless of what system of governance you use is the culture and the people. Even if Pakistan were to turn secular, would that stop extremists from killing Ahmadis? It would end state-discrimination but would it change their personal lives? Not really, you need to change the people. A democratic government secular or not is only as good as it's people.


So why don't you petition and educate the masses, teach tolerance in Pakistan then you will start to see results. The Pakistani people if wanting equality needs to call out their government not the type of governance.

 

[Verve]

If you believe in Allah then you will implement the way of life He has prescribed. If you don't believe in Allah, the do whatever else you want.

And if you think the way of life only applies to running your own house and personal affairs and does not apply to the Government then go riot against Allah.

 

[malik_qasim]

[QUOTE="nightRider

the definition is correct, i do agree with it. but it is one of the many definitions of secularism and how the word could be used..
let us use the word profane.. it has a more understood and stable meaning in this context.
and my friend fascism occupy the same place in the political spectrum as religious parties do.. the far right
we can debate and copy past all the references in the internet but it wont change the similarities and cohesion these two forces have with each other..
and it wont change the fact that Nazi party did used Teutonic knights as there mascots.. and Teutonic crosses as there symbols. which wehrmacht wore into battles. and they also did have chaplain in the wehrmacht..
in the characteristics of fascism.. and religion is one of there pillars.
they use the dominant religion of the country to meet their own ends.. stire up hate and an enviroment of unsecurity.
and i think you do not know it yet,
but the present catholic church and pope do accept evolution, they just lay there religion narrative one the scientific one.
and soon you will be seeing it also happening in the Islamic world.
secularism is the best way forward..
most of the people are conformists in any society.. and in our society our conformists happens to be also religiously motivated so its hard to have a chat about it and not getting hated for it

 

[JAGGA-J]

Exactly... beautifully said. I believe we are in this time. So isn't it only logical that in such a time that there should be a separation of state and the failing mosque?



Don't worrg too much about younge minds reading about secularism and getting "influenced" ... rather worry about them getting influenced by extremists.

Look at the poll... majority are for separation of mosque and state.

As I said earlier, Islam the Sharia requires the separation of Faith & State, however, the State can apply laws of sharia if accepted by the State itself.

Islam is perfect in every respect and Pakistan is an Islamic country, however, the problem stems from the fact that the savage mulvis (these ignorant masses follow) for guidance have been declared as the "worst on earth" and compared to "monkey/pigs" by Nabi (saw). If you watch these mulvis, they resemble monkeys & their actions are like pigs as they devour their own people by bombing and killing them.

 

[Hassan Guy]

If you believe in Allah then you will implement the way of life He has prescribed. If you don't believe in Allah, the do whatever else you want.

And if you think the way of life only applies to running your own house and personal affairs and does not apply to the Government then go riot against Allah.

That is what it is, its a personal belief which then applies to your personal affairs - has absolutely nothing to do with the government.