Separation of Mosque and State

[Zarvan]

ok, can you give me an example of a country currently that goes by 'Allah's ways'?

BTW, you can still practice islam under secular rule, millions of muslims go to secular countries and practice their religion there

No you can't Islam is not just limited to 5 daily prayers and fasting and paying some charity and doing Hajj. It's a Deen which includes governing system and laws which have to be implemented by Islamic State no kafir State will do that

 

[Morse_Code]

bro, what world do you live in?
There are millions of muslims that are in - and going to secular countries and they practice their religion there.

So you are saying ...they are going for the purpose of practicing religion?
which world do you live in?

 

[Hassan Guy]

No you can't Islam is not just limited to 5 daily prayers and fasting and paying some charity and doing Hajj. It's a Deen which includes governing system and laws which have to be implemented by Islamic State no kafir State will do that

So which country currently implements this?

 

[Zarvan]

Guys, can you give me an example of any state that is truly Islamic or being run by sharia? Even Saudi which is the most conservative will not fit that category because it is a client state of USA like our Pakistan. Yet even though you agree that no state has yet managed to introduce "true Islam" you keep hoping it will be done some day? If it couldn't be done and you weren't satisfied for more than 1500 years then how will you be satisfied now?

Think about this. This is a very slippery slope. Pleasing the Islamist Mullah is never possible. When you will start praying with your paincha up they will condemn the small size of your beard, when you correct the size of your beard they will condemn your women for not wearing a more loose-fitted abaya. The process is endless.

The mullahs mind is never settled, he will keep seeking ways to impose religion or if he has the opportunity, oppress a minority. @Luffy 500 @Zarvan ... all mullah types themselves cannot live in a type of society they are haranguing for. Yet our youths minds have been so poisoned they continue to advocate for an Islamic government. Even though they may never be able to agree even with each other.

For example one will say beard is farz another not. Who will you follow? Not everyone follows one universal message of Islam, everyone interprets it differently. Everyone should be free to believe in the way he has been told/taught/learned...

Unfortunately the mullahs and their chelas have no vision in mind for society. They just parrot this Islamist agenda because they have been taught to hate secularism and believe it is Un-Islamic.

Islamic laws are crystal clear and in secularism there is confusion where every man will come up with his issues and try to make them law of the land

 

[Hassan Guy]

So you are saying ...they are going for the purpose of practicing religion?
which world do you live in?

Minority rights is what lets them do that, that doesn't exist in a lot of muslim countries.

Islamic laws are crystal clear and in secularism there is confusion where every man will come up with his issues and try to make them law of the land

Then we can't be a democracy

 

[Morse_Code]

Minority rights is what lets them do that, that doesn't exist in a lot of muslim countries.

Agreed! but your assertion that Muslims living in secular states are allowed to follow their religion openly... take a look at Turkey, France!

 

[Hassan Guy]

Agreed! but your assertion that Muslims living in secular states are allowed to follow their religion openly... take a look at Turkey, France!

What do you mean by openly? Muslims over there are just fine as a matter of fact they prefer it over where they came from.

 

[cocomo]

the definition is correct, i do agree with it. but it is one of the many definitions of secularism and how the word could be used..

As I said secular just means non-religious, are you sure you don't mean secular humanism?
Humanism:
An ethical system that centers on humans and their values, needs, interests, abilities, dignity and freedom; especially used for a secular one which rejects theistic religion and superstition.

friend fascism occupy the same place in the political spectrum as religious parties do

Fascism has nothing to do with spirituality or religion. It is a secular ideology.
Fascism:
Fascism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism that came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe, influenced by national syndicalism.
As I have said religion doesn't divide the humanity according to borders like nationalism. Religion divides the humanity into believers and unbelievers, Communism divides humanity into Bourgeoisie and Proletariat.

we can debate and copy past all the references in the internet but it wont change the similarities and cohesion these two forces have with each other..

They are not just references to similarities, I mentioned what they believe in. They believed themselves as a superior race and the rest as savages which by the way Darwin himself believed in.

Nazi party did used Teutonic knights as there mascots.. and Teutonic crosses as there symbols. which wehrmacht wore into battles. and they also did have chaplain in the wehrmacht..
in the characteristics of fascism.. and religion is one of there pillars.

Doesn't matter, ideologically Nazism used evolution and eugenics to justify what they were doing, ideologically they weren't Christians, they didn't invoke God to justify their acts.

they use the dominant religion of the country to meet their own ends.. stire up hate and an enviroment of unsecurity.
and i think you do not know it yet,

Yes I agree they used religion (only symbolically). People use any kind of dominant ideology to rally people. Now a days people rally around nationalism and do massacres and what not for national interests.

but the present catholic church and pope do accept evolution, they just lay there religion narrative one the scientific one.
and soon you will be seeing it also happening in the Islamic world.

I don't think Muslims will replace God with evolution. Those Muslims that do believe in evolution don't believe it in its entirety, they still believe in a creator.

secularism is the best way forward..

Brother I sense escapism here, Nazi did use science to justify their acts and not God. And this rosy picture of secularism and secular humanism is a bit disingenuous because right now a secular country is killing civilians around the world for what they call the greater good and national interests. Even the CIA used this greater good argument for torture, and they have supreme emergency exemption in their secular ideologies to kill civilians. The most bloody wars, WW1 and WW2 was fought for secular reasons, it wasn't a decree from God.

 

[Azadkashmir]

This is why i want state and mosque fused - soverignty lies with your own currency. debt free.

 

[Verve]

Those of you who want secularism are playing in the hands of ..... guess who ... yes ... the Zionists ... read the below extract from the Protocols of the elders of Zion. Have a guess as to whom invented Secularism and Marxism?

WE SHALL DESTROY GOD

3. But even freedom might be harmless and have its place in the State economy without injury to the well-being of the peoples if it rested upon the foundation of faith in God, upon the brotherhood of humanity, unconnected with the conception of equality, which is negatived by the very laws of creation, for they have established subordination. With such a faith as this a people might be governed by a wardship of parishes, and would walk contentedly and humbly under the guiding hand of its spiritual pastor submitting to the dispositions of God upon earth. This is the reason why IT IS INDISPENSABLE FOR US TO UNDERMINE ALL FAITH, TO TEAR OUT OF THE MIND OF THE "GOYIM" THE VERY PRINCIPLE OF GOD-HEAD AND THE SPIRIT, AND TO PUT IN ITS PLACE ARITHMETICAL CALCULATIONS AND MATERIAL NEEDS.


Queue the entry of Zionists in this thread ... Hindu and Israeli ..

So which country currently implements this?

You just want to prove a point by stating 'currently' only in your question. You must also be one of those who believed that Islam spread due to sword ONLY, right? You don't want to look at the last 2000 years of history? Currently only yes? If only humankind on earth was only this 'currently' in duration?

This is why i want state and mosque fused - soverignty lies with your own currency. debt free.

'They' won't get this .. are blinded by anti-Islam propaganda .. gold standard was discarded for a reason ... to take hold of natural resources of the other countries .. now even paper money is being phased out ... it's electronic money (or electronic digits in reality) to speed up acquisition of commodities market ... banks create digital money and the banking elite acquire assets with it.

 

[malik_qasim]

As I said secular just means non-religious, are you sure you don't mean secular humanism?
Humanism:
An ethical system that centers on humans and their values, needs, interests, abilities, dignity and freedom; especially used for a secular one which rejects theistic religion and superstition.


Fascism has nothing to do with spirituality or religion. It is a secular ideology.
Fascism:
Fascism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism that came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe, influenced by national syndicalism.
As I have said religion doesn't divide the humanity according to borders like nationalism. Religion divides the humanity into believers and unbelievers, Communism divides humanity into Bourgeoisie and Proletariat.


They are not just references to similarities, I mentioned what they believe in. They believed themselves as a superior race and the rest as savages which by the way Darwin himself believed in.


Doesn't matter, ideologically Nazism used evolution and eugenics to justify what they were doing, ideologically they weren't Christians, they didn't invoke God to justify their acts.



Yes I agree they used religion (only symbolically). People use any kind of dominant ideology to rally people. Now a days people rally around nationalism and do massacres and what not for national interests.


I don't think Muslims will replace God with evolution. Those Muslims that do believe in evolution don't believe it in its entirety, they still believe in a creator.


Brother I sense escapism here, Nazi did use science to justify their acts and not God. And this rosy picture of secularism and secular humanism is a bit disingenuous because right now a secular country is killing civilians around the world for what they call the greater good and national interests. Even the CIA used this greater good argument for torture, and they have supreme emergency exemption in their secular ideologies to kill civilians. The most bloody wars, WW1 and WW2 was fought for secular reasons, it wasn't a decree from God.

lets analyse this shall we,
fascists are homophobic, religious people also are
fascists hate abortions, religious people also do
fascists are totalitarians, religious people also are
fascist are misogynist, religious people also are
fascists are xenophobic, religious people also hate minorities
fascists are expansionists, religion of Christianity and Islam also are
fascists are racist, trust me religious people also are, the choice melt down to being an Arab or Nordic in origin
and above all this code of ethics the fascists waved around was infect derived from the religion
that is why there are commonalities, because both manifest the same thing a society have to offer.. traditions.
my point is that fascists kill and punish people for the same reasons as religious governments will kill or punish them for,
the end result is loss of human life..
and both sides feed on it. and you are arguing the difference in reasons why they kill
fascists kill homosexuals because they think they are inferior,
religious people kill homosexuals because they are sinners(which mean they are inferior)
and the end result is the death of an innocent human being

yes they do believe in a superior race.. that was their staple no doubt but every religion do connect it self with such a superior race
Judaism with Jews
Islam with Arabs
Hinduism with Bahamians
Christianity with Europeans specially a Latin speaker in the classic period and a Nordic one in the later
the difference is just the methodology of proving superiority.
some might use science and some might use blood lineage.

i do believe it will happen very soon, u misunderstood me a little. i said that in the face of compulsive evidence the church officials have accepted the theory of evolution BUT they have realigned creationism with evolution by saying god must have created a process of evolution and helped it along the way and then should have send Adam and eve down from heaven on some point to manifest the bodies which were evolved.
its just what religion do to survive, it ironically also evolves. by taking in new facts and discoveries
i do believe that Muslims in near future will also come up with such an explanation.
they will accommodate evolution as they have with many scientific discoveries over the past centuries.
like gravity, spherical earth, flight etc
the very first few classical quranic tafssers, which are not studied today clearly shows the evolution of religious thoughts to this day
so its not about replacing your god with evolution, its more about accommodation him with evolution.

no no brother i enjoyed talking with you, but its a argument that cannot be won. i cannot force you, you cannot force me
so better should end it on a good note
THAT WE AGREE TO DISAGREE
and i will defend your right to agree or disagree with me
chao

 

[mrrehan]

In the presence of religious extremism , religion and state should be separated. Where so called religious leader convert the masses into mob and take the justice in there hand.
When religious scholars seal their lips due to death threats.

Why can't state separate these so called "culprit religious leader" from representing the religion on the first place. We can change the mistakes that we make "WE CANNOT MAKE CHANGES IN RELIGION"

 

[TankMan]

In the presence of religious extremism , religion and state should be separated.

No, the exact opposite should happen.

If you turn the state into a secular one while the majority population is religious, you increase the appeal of extremists and anti-state so-called 'religious' figures.

Religion needs to be embraced. If you reject it, you are basically stating that religion is inherently violent and incompatible with the state. That is exactly what the EXTREMISTS say and want.

 

[Cherokee]

I am surprised most people reaping the benefits of living in a secular society in the west are so vehemently against separation of mosque and state .

 

[HAIDER]

Why can't state separate these so called "culprit religious leader" from representing the religion on the first place. We can change the mistakes that we make "WE CANNOT MAKE CHANGES IN RELIGION"

Political gain,,,,,