Separation of Mosque and State

[nana41]

Gulags, holocaust, Ukrainian famines, Bangal famine , Algerian genocide, butchery of Vietnam, Bosnian genocide, ethnic cleansing in Africa, Australia, Canada, US, Iraq war were all perpetuated by champions of Secularism. You choose to overlook history to fuel your desi surkha conspiracy theories. The facts though, remain facts.

Brother Q T ! Perfactly summarized and very well explained.

 

[SherDil]

Jalal-e-Badshahi ho ya Jamhori tamasha ho

Juda o den syasat say too reh jati hay jhangezi

 

[DeceptiveEagle]

Gulags, holocaust, Ukrainian famines, Bangal famine , Algerian genocide, butchery of Vietnam, Bosnian genocide, ethnic cleansing in Africa, Australia, Canada, US, Iraq war were all perpetuated by champions of Secularism. You choose to overlook history to fuel your desi surkha conspiracy theories. The facts though, remain facts.

Well Said Sir, Secularz are the butchers of the Humanity -- just one example of their service for humanity, What the champion of secularism US did with Japan in WW2.

 

[malik_qasim]

i believe people are confusing a secular form of government with nationalism or racism on this forum
there is a difference between the two, the more radical you get as a secular, the better.
and more radical you get will racism nationalism or religion, more the world will bleed

 

[SherDil]

Iqbal R.A summed it up way ago.
Dedicated to all pseudo libtards of Pakistan.

 

[war&peace]

@Hassan Guy change the settings of the polls, make it public since a lot of non-Pakistanis are also voting while this non of their business.

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

If the libtards have problem, no body is stopping them rather people will be happy as the house will be clean... All the mess we see in Pakistan today is created by libtards who have been in govt since almost the creation of the country.

Take a moment, keep corruption on one side, Liberal PPPP was against terrorist from day one, they shouted since day one, but you people keep neglected liberals, prefered table talk with taliban terrorist unless you woke up with terrorist attack on APS, you Preferred to open taliban office in Peshawar, for peace talk with good taliban according to your understanding. You have soft corner for extremists from day one , encourages extremism, religious bigotry, you do bigotry, then again create sub sections of Islam, you spread hate, and after bigotry, you turns towards violence. Our History is evident of this, YouTube is filled with videos of violence everywhere so called Pure struggle always turns towards violence. Pakistan is suffering due to extremists people like you and same minded people.
There are very few good Muslim like junaid jamshed, truly patriotic, and good Muslim.
Pakistan became hub of extremism, due to same mentality like you, but things are improving after western education including reading science, math ,English and their history.
We have hope from new generation and We will achieve peace, While extremism will do to gutter, they have no future.Our new generation prefers to listen songs, watching movies, and they have open mind & more tolerant. They prefers to celebrate every event with open mind, Also they are tolerant and open to debate, instead of violence. They presents tablos, singing songs in school, including girls actively participate in sports , and every event of school , open to debate for betterment of Pakistan.

 

[haviZsultan]

I will not argue further. The mullahs have constantly portrayed an image that Islam and the secular system are completely incompatible. But it is a universal truth that there are problems when religion is imposed and it is unfortunate as the secular system and equal treatment of minorities often results in conversions. I myself have involuntarily converted an Ahmedi. Only secular thinking can do this.

I will leave with this article I wrote years ago:

Why do we fear Secularism?

By Havi Z Sultan

Many Pakistanis have a built in aversion towards the word secularism while taking an excessive pride in the Islamic Republic attached to Pakistan’s name. Despite the fact that many Pakistanis fail to follow the tenets of Islam and the word Islamic Republic makes a mockery of the meaning it remains a source of excessive pride. Scholars claim that today the country is very far from Islam because very few people in Pakistan really follow the tenets of Islam however very few of them can answer the question whether it's worthwhile to have an “Islamic Republic” only in name. However the real question is do we really have anything to fear from Secularism in the first place?

According to its dictionary meaning Secularism refers to the equal treatment of each and every religious group within the Nation and to the idea that religion should have a smaller role in politics and decision making because when it has too large a role people spend their time over their own separate interpretations of religion rather than Nation building and the tasks at hand.

Many Muslims in Pakistan fear secularism because they have a perverse idea of the concept fearing Islam will be diminished with Secularism. This is completely untrue. Pakistan’s Islamic identity will not be lost with a Secular system.

Will Secularism decrease Islam’s value in Pakistan?

Many Pakistanis continually fear that secularism will decrease Islam's value or worse will eliminate Islam from Pakistan.

The fact is no one is pushing Islam away and with 95% of the population of Pakistan being proud and extremely pious Muslims for the most part it is impossible to even try. Islam will still be practiced by the majority of people as it is being practiced today without any hindrance whatsoever. The only difference perhaps will be that religion will be a personal matter. A person who does not follow Islam devotedly or a follower of a different religion or a sect of Islam will not be persecuted for having his own separate beliefs.

If seen in such a light Secularism is nothing to be feared. We can be proud Muslims and defend Islam as much or even more with a secular constitution as we can by labelling a country ruled by very corrupt people with barely any link to Islam an “Islamic Republic”. An Islamic Republic where the rulers themselves have no link to Islam and others often use religion as a tool to fulfill their personal interests.

The fact is that a country that calls itself an Islamic Republic should have a constitution, laws (that are implemented instead of being cleared by people who can pay bribes), rules and regulations based on the tenets of Islam. A country lacking the Islamic economic and judicial system based on the teachings of the Prophet can't be an Islamic Republic. It's not that Pakistanis haven't tried. If proof is needed one needs to look at Zia's Islamicization. Pakistanis have tried to impose Islam in letter and spirit for 60 years and failed. It's more than time we revised our direction.

The tenets of Islam support Secularism & harmony

“To you be your Faith, and to me mine.”

Ayat 109:6

During the rule of Ali Ibn Abi Talib the fourth Caliph of Islam a Jew stole a shield that belonged to the Caliph and claimed that it was his. He was brought to the court of Ali to settle the dispute. However due to lack of proof and according to Islamic law the Jew was allowed to keep the shield as Hazrat Ali could not prove he owned the shield. This was a verdict going against a Muslim Caliph in his own court. However Hazrat Ali accepted the decision calmly. On the other hand the Jew was dumbfounded as he had indeed stolen the shield. He was quick to embrace Islam and declared that he had lied in front of the entire court.

This was one example of how Islam spread to become one of the largest religions in the World and won hearts and minds. It was due to the insight and tolerance our ancestors had that we got to where we are, that Cordova and Baghdad became centres of learning and Islam spread from the corners of Spain to the boundaries of the far east.

Unfortunately many people in Pakistan do not understand that human rights and the equal treatment of all individuals in the country is more important in Islam rather than a notion of Islamic pride and superiority where labelling a country an “Islamic Republic” is deemed necessary. This pride comes from a past that our ancestors built with policies that we fail to understand today.

The Quaid E Azams Principles

“In any case Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic State — to be ruled by priests with a divine mission. We have many non- Muslims — Hindus, Christians, and Parsis — but they are all Pakistanis. They will enjoy the same rights and privileges as any other citizens and will play their rightful part in the affairs of Pakistan.”

Quaid E Azam, February 1948

The above quote is the greatest proof that Quaid E Azam did not want a state that was built solely on the basis of religion. Unfortunately since his death the constitution has been changed to suit every new leader that came and the title “Islamic Republic” untrue it may be has been added along with many laws that are completely out of line with Quaid E Azam's original ideas for Pakistan. If we look closely at many of his speeches we will notice Quaid E Azam was a staunch supporter of secularism with an added focus on Islamic thought and ideology. Therefore until he was alive the Islamic Republic was never attached to the countries name. That happened when Ayub Khan came into power.

Other speeches by Quaid E Azam that clearly supported the message of peace, harmony and equality between all groups whether they are ethnic or religious are stated below.

‘We are starting with the fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one state. No matter what is his colour, caste or creed is first, second and last a citizen of this state with equal rights, privileges and obligations….”

“In due course of time Hindus will cease to be Hindus and Muslims will cease to be Muslims – not in a religious sense for that is the personal faith of an individual- but in a political sense as citizens of one state.”

“[If you] work together in a spirit that everyone of you no matter what is his colour, caste or creed, is first, second and last a citizen of this state with equal rights, privileges and obligations, there will be no end to the progress you will make.”

11 August 1947

“The tenets of Islam enjoin on every Musalman to give protection to his neighbours and to the Minorities regardless of caste and creed. We must make it a matter of our honor and prestige to create sense of security amongst them.”

30th October 1947

Clearly Quaid E Azam understood that a Nation could not be built until differences were eliminated and people saws themselves as equal members of a single society regardless of faith or ethnicity.

Perhaps if that spirit was alive today Pakistan would not be afflicted with minor issues and infighting over Shia-Sunni, Barelvi-Deobandi, Wahabi-Mainstream Muslim, and the principles of personal freedom would have given way to building a Nation that was the most glorious one in history. Unfortunately this destiny still awaits the Pakistani race which dreams for justice and equality. Many conservatives continuously deny Quaid E Azam wanted a secular country believing that such a concept is against Islam when it is not. Perhaps they fear for their own interests but Quaid E Azam did indeed want a Nation that was Secular or Socialist and gave equal opportunity to all inhabitants.

People try to deny this but the fact is, being Muslims this is not something for us to be ashamed of but something glorious. That a leader who did so much for Muslims, gave them a new homeland and independence, still understood the morals of our ancestors because of whom Islam to spread is truly remarkable.

Issues caused by the misinterpretation of Islamic Law & resources used to contain them

The fact that laws created to safeguard Islam are being used for the benefit and self interest of bad people does not do anything great for the image of Islam. A clear example is the blasphemy law, a law that makes an insult to Islam, the Prophet or the Quran illegal and punishable by death. This law has been used against minorities for a long time. However Muslims have fallen victims to this law as well.

An example of how this law is misused was the case of Mohammad Imran who was arrested in Faisalabad for blasphemy on the 28th of October 2007. He was falsely blamed because of a personal argument. After being arrested he was first tortured by the police, then the inmates and later he was placed in solitary confinement without anyone looking after his injuries. He was only released in April 2009 after being declared innocent.

Another example was the framing of Akhtar Hammed Khan, an 81 year old writer and sociologist by business interests and authorities unwilling to let his development work take place in Orangi, Karachi. He had launched a development project on the behalf of the people of Orangi. His project offering real estate loans on good terms and work to improve the condition of women through education, and access to employment and family planning was not well-liked by these authorities. Thus they decided to book him on false charges with the police under the blasphemy laws. He was later released due to inadequate evidence but the case proves how the law is being used to settle personal scores and disputes.

Minorities have many such stories to share as 60% of all victims who are framed under this law are Non Muslims. The law has become a tool for fanatics, murderers and people seeking to settle personal scores yet the law still hasn’t been repealed due to the fact that militants have some influence on governance. Land disputes or personal quarrels are by far the main reason for people to be booked under this law.

Another such law is the Hudood Ordinance where in a case of Rape four witnesses are required to confirm that a rape has taken place. This is practically impossible. However the woman who complains that a rape has taken place is often booked for being with another man while the culprits of the rape run free.

Therefore the Hudood Law became a tool in the hands of rapists and today any woman can be raped. But when she goes to the police to get justice the Hudood Law can be used to frame her because by claiming that she has been raped she also admits that she has been with another man and committed Zinah. Some figures claim that in the year 1979 there were only 70 women in Pakistani jails. A decade later, in 1988, this figure had risen to 6000 and over 80% of the women in prison were there because of these laws. It is said many more women do not even report rapes in fear of being persecuted due to this law.

Is Pakistan really Islamic?

Better to have a Secular constitution than Islam only in name

There is no doubt that our leaders found us a land that was a safe haven for Muslims and gave us freedom to make our own decisions without the fear of suffering biased treatment for the faith we followed. However the question today is how much Islam is being followed in the country?

For instance the Quran states “Keep yourselves away from bribes because it is kufr and one who receives them will never smell the scent of paradise”. The fact is in Pakistan taking and giving bribes is so common that even a noble person can hardly live without paying one. Some honourable folk still struggle on but their lives are much more difficult. If a person has money it is a possibility he has given or taken a bribe at least once. Unfortunately the entire bureaucracy is at the forefront of this rot. Justice is sold and witnesses can be bought.

On the other hand while drinking is not allowed and a license is required in order to drink in Pakistan, people who want to drink do so with impunity and with no fear of being punished. The law is not even being implemented while if a drunkard happens to get caught a simple bribe wins back the persons freedom. On the other hand while adultery is considered a punishable law under the constitution it is practiced by many people in the country without any fear of punishment. The same goes for many other laws. It is virtually impossible to implement these laws and it costs resources to do so.

The fact is many laws related to Islam exist in Pakistan but they are there only in name. They are either being misused by people for their own interests or they are not implemented and people who commit heinous crimes are allowed to go free because of them, without any fear of punishment while the innocent are framed.

The real question for Pakistan today is whether it is sensible to have a false, broken and corrupt “Islamic Republic” in name or is it better to have a secular constitution that guarantees freedom to everyone and ensures that there are no vaguely addressed laws that make a mockery of our religion and are misused for the benefit of a few criminals.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Remind me when Mosque was actually part of state decision making process in Pakistan? Most of our history, Pakistan has been in firm grasp of liberal scumbags, who also happen to be feudals, businessman, clans and families whose forefathers were loyal British subjects of Raj.

You can only separate religion when it is part of state at first place. Pathetic argument.

Its an old ploy, to hide own failures, abject incompetency and corruption, put blame elsewhere, in Pakistan case, to Mosque and Mullah. Just like America and Afghanistan keep on bitching about Pakistan for their own failures, the liberal elite of Pakistan who got firm control over decision making and power corridors, keep on moaning about religion.

 

[Jungibaaz]

It should be separate. Politics would corrupt the religion and drag it through the mud, while religion would constrain the state and hinder any progress.

They both degrade each other when you too intimately mix the two. In Pakistan's case, there are some benefits to elements of theocracy, but it will cause many political conflicts and upheaval if we keep it around.

However, there would also be benefits of having a secular state, I can say with an almost absolute degree of certainty, that Pakistan in the future if secular instead of theocratic (ceteris paribus) would have; higher literacy rates, higher life expectancy, higher GDP per capita, higher HDI, and many other things.

I would also add that being secular would not necessarily undermine religion, it does not need to be one extreme or the other. Religion is a personal affair, and rather ironically, you'd be even more free in a secular country to practise your religion more freely. And God does not always help them who don't help themselves. You either make your own way and pray for the best, or keep praying with no moves towards progress, you can hypothesise about the better approach, I'm certain which of the two is superior.

 

[Hassan Guy]

With mosque u meant Islam?

yes

Pakistan is an Islamic state and You can not separate Islam from state. Islam thought us how to govern and how to rule and how to run any state. (that is different story that we are not following Islam as we should)

That is complete BS

It should be separate. Politics would corrupt the religion and drag it through the mud, while religion would constrain the state and hinder any progress.

They both degrade each other when you too intimately mix the two. In Pakistan's case, there are some benefits to elements of theocracy, but it will cause many political conflicts and upheaval if we keep it around.

However, there would also be benefits of having a secular state, I can say with an almost absolute degree of certainty, that Pakistan in the future if secular instead of theocratic (ceteris paribus) would have; higher literacy rates, higher life expectancy, higher GDP per capita, higher HDI, and many other things.

I would also add that being secular would not necessarily undermine religion, it does not need to be one extreme or the other. Religion is a personal affair, and rather ironically, you'd be even more free in a secular country to practise your religion more freely. And God does not always help them who don't help themselves. You either make your own way and pray for the best, or keep praying with no moves towards progress, you can hypothesise about the better approach, I'm certain which of the two is superior.

 

[SQ8]

Whats wrong with caliphate idealists buddy??, do u mean that u shun the caliphate system given by Allah and His prophet(pbuh)??, do u prefer the systems given by aristotle and karl marx over the system of prophet(pbuh), stick to one side huh, its always best, if the wrong people are propogating an ideology doesnt neccesarily mean that the ideology is wrong, the presidential system is an english version inspired by islamic caliphate system..


Are u saying that u are just againat the idiotic mullah's and advocate their separation from the state or are u saying that we should adopt secularism and abandon islam as the state relgion and the principle authority??, cause i belive in abolishing the entire mullah system and introducing an imam system with govt certified degree's, and phd scholars in islamic research the only one's responsible for explanation of islam...


Try running to america or uk after publically advocating hate against them, see what happens kiddo, ur argument is totally unrelated and idiotic, secularism has killed more people in 5 decades than religion has done in 2 millinieums..

Please find all references to the word khalifah in the Quran and its relation to a presidential, dictatorship, democracy or musical chairs

 

[cocomo]

i believe people are confusing a secular form of government with nationalism or racism on this forum

Some argue that nationalism is a secular religion, it keeps people together, like a religion would, it makes you biased against other nationalities and it is something to die for. Nationalism isn't a religious idea, your conscience/religion decides what group you belong to in religion not the boundaries on a map, hence nationalism is a secular idea.

Secular just means "not religious". So facism, communism and North Korea are all secular.

 

[M A MUGHAL]

PAKISTAN آزاد HI SIRF ISLAM KI WAJAH SE HOWA THAI OR YE ISLAMI JAHORI PAKISTAN HAI HAMARE SABH QAWANEEN OR FASLE ALLAH KE HUKAM PER OR NABIYE MUHAMMED KI BAAT PER HONE CHAHIYE

 

[Verve]

Politics and Islam are poles apart and the new system we are eventually going to get should be a party free system. No more dynastic and so called religious parties. Presidents should come and go as they do in various presidential democracies.

Laws in Quran are simple enough to understand and should be the core/foundation of the constitution.

Muslim majority country should have laws that do not offend the majority. Selling alcohol in street shops, pornography, promotion of acts that are forbidden in the Quran, same sex marriages etc should not be allowed as they are in the secular states. There are no disputes between sects on such clearly defined and stated Quranic laws. Sermons in mosques should be standardised to promote peace and harmony, not hatred and division.