What's new

Sensitive Data of Indian Navy’s Scorpene Class Submarines Leaked

In Indian Paper:

Did India err in choosing French sub?

Did India go wrong in opting for the French sub, traversing an unknown and untested path? Before the 2002-05 French connection, all Indian Navy submarines were of Soviet/Russian or German origin. Why then did we opt for the French option?

Unlike the country’s air and land forces, the Indian Navy did not have any significant French connection till 2002, when protracted negotiations between New Delhi and Paris ultimately led to the October 6, 2005 contract for the licensed production of six French DCNS submarines at Mumbai’s Mazagon Docks. DCNS was to send technical advisers and provide prefabricated hull elements and combat systems, including command systems, underwater sensors, optronics and communications; while another French company, MBDA, was to supply Exocet SM39 missiles as part of the package. However, the delivery of all six boats, that was to have begun in 2012 and to have been completed in around, is still stuck: not a single one, to date, has been commissioned into the Indian Navy.

How does one then regard the ongoing submarine data leak scandal, and what should India, the affected party, now do? Who is responsible for this “criminal” breach of security and confidentiality, thus jeopardising the very utility of the submarine? India? France? DCNS? Mazagon Docks? The Indian Navy? Retired officers in both Paris and New Delhi? Conmen in Delhi, or middlemen based in exotic islands? The CIA or the ISI? Or Russia, China or Australia? Or someone or some entity that will never be pinned down? A coverup operation to protect those responsible seems almost certain, as the possibility of the involvement of certain interested parties just can’t be ruled out. It is undoubtedly a crisis, the flood of denials from Paris to New Delhi notwithstanding: uncomfortable questions are bound to be raised. Why, how and when did it happen? And who are the gainers?

Some basics, however, seem more than plausible. First, India isn’t yet a high-tech military machine manufacturer, thus its helpless dependence on foreign vendors. Second, India’s traditional scam-oriented procurement process has inevitably made major purchases and acquisitions of arms and military hardware an avoidable victim of time and cost overruns. The Scorpene delay is a good example. Third, no foreign supplier will miss the opportunity for fat profits and will throw in a few morsels in “kickbacks” to “those who matter to fix things”. And finally, rightly or wrongly, there do exist several actors within the Indian system, along with their foreign collaborators, who are capable of going to any extent to make unscrupulous individuals flourish at the expense of the Indian State.

The next question is: why is the Indian Navy constantly in the news since the 1990s for all the wrong reasons? Why not the Army and Air Force? The answer probably lies in the fact that a warship (as a unit) is usually huge, high-tech, with a long gestation period, highly visible and of high value, and is always an attractive asset to milk, in contrast to any single unit of the Army or Air Force gear or hardware. On top of that, and on top of that, only a few nations (US, Russia, Japan, China, Britain, France, Spain, Italy, Germany and India) now have the capability to manufacture fighting ships of at least 5,000 tonnes and above.

One thing must also be remembered here about France. Pakistan traditionally has been the main operator of French submarines in South Asia ever since it inducted the Agosta-70 class boat into its Navy in February 1979 as PNS Hashmat. Pakistan ordered a second batch of three more Agosta-90Bs (which it named Khalid) class boats between 1992 and 1994, and the first ship, built by DCN, Cherbourg, was commissioned on September 6, 1999. The date is significant. September 6 is Pakistan’s Armed Forces Day as India had opened the Lahore-Sialkot front to counter Pakistan’s armour thrust in the Chhamb-Jaurian sector of J&K in 1965.

That is understandable. But why did India begin talks with France on submarines, knowing fully that the company, or its affiliates, was providing similar submarines to Pakistan for long? By and large, the military inventory of India and Pakistan have not been common. When Pakistan used the F-16, Mirage III, Mirage V and F-86 aircraft, India used Ouragon, Mystere, Vampire, Gnat, MiG-21 and AN-12. When the Pakistanis used M-47/M-48 Patton tanks, the Indian arsenal had British and Soviet T-55, PT-76 and a few French AMX-13 light tanks.

Even today, as far as possible, Indian and Pakistani inventories tend to be uncommon. If so, why and how did Indian wisdom change so drastically between 2002 and 2005 to go for a submarine common to both New Delhi and Islamabad? Who in the murky world of the global arms bazaar would resist the temptation of not leaking or selling data for a fortune in the India-Pakistan scenario?

Another disturbing open source nugget, gleaned from the latest edition of Jane’s Fighting Ships, is that the French-supplied Pakistani submarine appears “superior” to the Indian Navy’s yet-to-be-commissioned French-origin Scorpene. Only two parameters are mentioned: the speed of the Pakistani boat is “12 knots surfaced”, while that of the Indian vessel is “11 knots surfaced”. Again, while the Pakistani boat’s range is “8500 nautical miles at 9 knots”, that of the Indian one is “6500 nautical miles at 8 knots”. Is this not “Advantage Pakistan”?

The moot point today is quite simple. Did India, wittingly or unwittingly, go wrong in opting for the French sub, traversing an unknown and untested path? Before the 2002-05 French connection, all Indian Navy submarines were of Soviet/Russian or German origin. Why then did we opt for the French option out of the blue? “Experts”, of course, may challenge this view, but it is hard to see logic in going to a country or company that is supplying the same type of submarine to an unfriendly neighbour next door. It appears at first sight to be a crass case of “business opportunity and profit” on the part of the seller and a misguided, misjudged action on the buyer’s part.

A few words on the Navy’s plight would be in order. Too many problems have afflicted the Navy since the 1990s. The succession at the top appears a chronic problem as several chiefs have either performed miserably or were humiliated by the government of the day. The memory of the scandalous “war room” espionage/leak still rankles. Several accidents in static garrisons have spoilt the fleet’s reputation; now comes the “leakage” of submarine data.

Ever since 2005, France is proving to be an erratic and difficult supplier. French fighter Rafale was chosen for the Indian Air Force way back in January 2012. Not a single aircraft has arrived. And now Scorpene. The contract of 2005 should have led to the first boat being commissioned in 2012. That has not happened. The situation now seems so uncertain that the entire onboard instrument/equipment systems of the “leaked boat” might have to be changed. That means cost and time overruns and a colossal loss of India’s public money. Should India then cancel Scorpene and Rafale and urgently revert to the old and dependable supplier from Moscow?

The writer is an alumnus of the National Defence College
 
Deep dive: Why Scorpene data leak does not compromise security of Project-75
Sushant Singh spoke to experts and submarine veterans to look at the impact of each of the 10 kinds of data breaches that The Australian newspaper reported last week.

Written by Sushant Singh | Published:August 29, 2016 1:46 am
sub-leak.jpg

INS Kalvari at Mazagon docks in Oct 2015.

To coordinate next year’s Golden Jubilee celebrations of the induction of the first submarine in the Navy, more than 100 retired officers of the submarine branch started a WhatsApp group last month. This group, which includes three-star officers who have spent decades with submarines, went abuzz at midnight last Tuesday after The Australian newspaper reported that 22,400 pages of documents pertaining to India’s Scorpene submarine programme, called Project-75, had been leaked.

The veterans studied the few leaked pages — with redacted data — put out by the paper, and intense discussions followed in the group for the first three days. In the end, there was near unanimity that while such data being put out publicly was not a good thing, it did not affect Project-75 in any significant way.

Under Project-75, French company DCNS provides design and technology to public sector Mazagon Docks to make six Scorpene submarines, the first of which, INS Kalvari was put out for sea trials earlier this year. The hulls of the other five submarines have been cast, and they are scheduled to be commissioned by 2020.

Captain J S Malik, a retired submariner with 32 years of experience who served as Director of Submarine Operations in Navy Headquarters, said, “Most of this data is generic and belongs to Naval Staff Qualitative Requirements (NSQR) provided by the Navy to the French company, and ‘binding data’ for the product. It does not pertain to any specific submarine, and has limited usage for the adversary.”

But Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar and Ministry officials have repeatedly asserted that they are “prepared for the worst-case scenario”. What could be the areas of concern for the Navy?

untitled-54.jpg

A part of the leaked papers.

According to Commodore A Jai Singh, a retired submariner who was associated with Project-75 preparations at Navy Headquarters at the turn of the century, “the only thing, which if leaked out from the supplier, that can really compromise the operation of our submarines is the source code of the Fire Control System. It is a top secret thing which the DCNS doesn’t even share with the company providing the weapons. The Australian hasn’t claimed that it is in the possession of the software code, and besides that, everything else is not really going to matter.”

He added, “Just the generic technical specifications are little indication of a submarine’s operational capability. The element of stealth and superiority is how a navy operates its submarines with the equipment on board and therein lie the vital elements of secrecy essential for submarine operations.”

Three top Navy sources have confirmed to The Indian Express that the documents put out so far are not the same as the ones with the Navy. These are dated versions from a period well before the signing of the contract with DCNS in 2005. Navy officials assert that “we are no longer a buyer’s Navy but a builder’s Navy. Only six navies have successfully built ballistic missile submarines, including India. There is no need to be overly concerned as we have the capability of tweaking the design, and the weapon and sensor deployment capability to mitigate any risk from information being compromised.”

The Australian has reported being in possession of 10 types of secret information which compromises the Indian programme. The Indian Express went over each of them with experts to figure out what they mean, and how they could affect the Navy.

Stealth capabilities
Stealth capabilities pertain mainly to the acoustic signature of a submarine, and is a function of many things, including the submarine’s self-noise levels, the propeller configuration, the speed regimes underwater, the noise generated by on-board machinery, and the acoustic damping techniques used both on the hull and within the submarine. The harmonics produced by no two submarines are the same. These spot frequencies, unlike the range given in the documents, are recorded by special equipment after a submarine goes for sea-trials, and kept in the Ship Data Book, a top secret document kept with the captain of the submarine. This data is re-recorded after every major refit, as the harmonics change. In the case of a European design like the Scorpene, there would not be much to choose between contemporary designs of a relatively similar size which would operate in the same frequency ranges.

Frequencies at which submarines gain intelligence
Most modern submarine Electronic Search Measures (ESM) systems operate in a frequency range of 0.2 to 40 GHz, so to learn that Scorpenes operate in a similar frequency band is no compromise. Similarly, submarines are fitted with navigational radars with commercial applications, which operate in a particular frequency range worldwide. A modern submarine rarely, if ever, transmits at sea either from its radars or its sonars, or even its communication sets. A Naval officer who commanded a submarine for six years said that he used an active sonar only thrice in his tenure, that too only to test the equipment and validate the training of his staff.

Noise levels submarines could reach at certain speeds
Noise levels are a function of the submarine speed and the speed of rotation of a propeller, which is recorded during sea trials and noted in the Ship Data Book. The data put out is the NSQR limits given by the Navy to the designers that it should not exceed so many decibels at various speeds.

Diving depths, range and endurance
Range and endurance of all submarines are in the open domain. While specific depths may not be listed in the open specifications, most submarines the world over operate in a more or less similar depth envelope. Endurance of any submarine is dependent on its maximum patrol period, which determines the quantity of fuel carried. It varies between 50 and 60 days in the case of India’s submarines.

Magnetic, electromagnetic and infra-red data
Every submarine is demagnetised after construction and undergoes trials at the underwater ranges at Goa. The data for even the first submarine has not been recorded so far. This data is updated even if a submarine has stayed in a dry dock for a prolonged period. Rarely has a submarine been detected by an MRASW aircraft fitted with a Magnetic Anomaly Detector. Since submarines do not transmit, they are not vulnerable to detection in the e-m spectrum.

Specifications of the submarine’s torpedo launch system and combat system
The Navy has not selected the torpedo for the six submarines after the contract for Black Shark torpedoes from the Italian company WASS was cancelled following the VVIP helicopter controversy. Based on the choice of weapons and sensors on board, and the operating philosophy, the combat system would be programmed by the Navy, so there would be very little to be gained from the basic characteristics of the system. The secrecy lies in their programming by the Navy.

Speed and conditions needed for using the periscope
Modern submarines rarely plane to periscope depth except for the minimum time required to charge their batteries. This duration is also a function of the submarine’s mission profile, as well as the tactical exploitation of the platform in the prevailing operational scenario. Knowing the speed and conditions needed for using the periscope actually discloses little or no information about what the submarine is doing or intends to do.

Propeller’s noise specifications
Each propeller generates its own harmonics of noise which is determined after extensive trials, while the data put out is the generic NSQR data. Even a minor chip of 2-3 mm completely changes propeller noise. The propeller generates different noise at different speeds at varying depths and varying hydrological conditions. The submarine is equipped with cavitation meters, to assess the noise level and accordingly vary its speed or depth to find the most suitable depth and speed profile to operate at.

Radiated noise levels when the submarine surfaces
A submarine is unlikely to surface in an operational deployment, and will do so if required, only in friendly waters. In an emergency, if a submarine has no choice but to surface, its visual presence will be easier to detect than its acoustic signature.

Weapons data
Weapons used in peacetime during training and during war operate on totally different frequencies. The war-shots are launched on frequency hopping mechanism, unlike peacetime firing. A veteran submariner gave the example of the only test war-shot fired by him in 2003 off the coast of Mumbai which could not be recorded by any of the half a dozen Indian ships monitoring the firing, despite knowing the exact timing and the location of the target. Moreover, the Pakistan Navy is also in possession of the same Exocet missile which these Scorpenes will use.

http://indianexpress.com/article/ex...ta-leak-manohar-parrikar-indian-navy-3001106/

++++

French submarine builder tries to plug global leak in Australian court
962be6212d1bc89b142415d2dee27b5f

An Indian navy Scorpene submarine begins sea trials. Picture: Reuters

The French shipbuilder at the centre of a global submarine data leak scandal is threatening legal action today to prevent further publication of the information contained in 22,400 secret documents obtained by The Australian.

The move by DCNS — which has won a contract to design Australia’s new $50 billion submarine fleet — comes as a former commander of the US Pacific Fleet Submarine Force warned that the Scorpene leaks scandal would undermine confidence in the ability of French companies to protect classified information.


Rear Admiral (retired) John Padgett, who is also the president of the influential US Naval Submarine League, has warned that “aggressive action” needed to be taken to investigate the leak and that France should share the outcome with Australia.

The rare public criticism of France by a senior US naval figure underlines the extent of US concern about the Edward Snowden-style leak of the DCNS documents, which reveal the highly sensitive combat capabilities of India’s new Scorpene submarine fleet.

India’s Defence Minister, Manohar Parrikar, who has ordered an investigation of the leak, has tried to allay fears of the damage, saying the leak was most likely “not a big worry” because the data did not contain weapons system details.

However, the leaked secret data seen by The Australian includes details of the capabilities of the SM39 anti-ship missile expected to be used on the Scorpene.

The data includes the number of targets the missile is capable of processing, its launch details and how many targets could be downloaded before firing.

Lawyers for DCNS have told The Australian the company will seek an injunction in the Supreme Court of NSW today to prevent further publication of documents.

The company is also seeking a court order to force The Australian to hand over the documents and remove them from its website. “The publication of this highly valuable document causes a direct harm to DCNS and its customer in terms of spread of sensitive and restricted information, image and reputation,’’ says an affidavit by DCNS’s lawyer Justine Munsie.


The Australian redacted the most sensitive details from the documents before their publication.

Admiral Padgett said the most significant implication of the DCNS leak was that any potential adversary, if armed with classified data, could create and exploit the vulnerabilities it revealed.

“It is never good for an opponent to have your playbook,” he said. “As a member of NATO, the French government and French military demonstrate that they enforce effective security controls and have a solid reputation with their allies.

“It is not clear to me that the French military-industrial base meets those same standards and breaches such as the (Scorpene data leak) undermine confidence that sensitive or classified information will remain secure.”

Admiral Padgett said the leak investigation had to determine exactly how the breach occurred and what “aggressive action” would be taken to correct deficient security controls. His comments came as a French public prosecutor opened a preliminary investigation into the data leak, with DCNS filing a complaint for breach of trust.

“We filed a complaint against unknown persons for breach of trust with the Paris prosecutor,” said a DCNS spokesman.

The alleged beach of trust reportedly includes receiving stolen goods and complicity.

The Turnbull government has publicly sought to play down concerns about the potential implications for Australia’s future submarine project, saying it was confident that strict and robust measures are in place to protect classified information.

But privately the Defence Department has warned DCNS it will demand the highest level of information security on the project.

Australia hopes to install a US combat system in the DCNS submarine, the Shortfin Barracuda.

“In my experience, the US Navy is very careful when sharing capability and components with others and must be convinced that adequate controls are in place to safeguard the interests of the US and prevent any compromise of US combat capability,” said Admiral Padgett, who commanded the Pacific submarine fleet from 2001 to 2003.

He acted as occasional consultant to German shipbuilder TKMS, which was a losing bidder for the Australian submarine project.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...t/news-story/92838db53f7b8b851a5f2b977d4e0305

+++
I like the last line.. occasional consultant.. 8-)
 
The guy has already said that he hasn't released any sensitive information but we have experts doing "intense discussions" to study those few pages and lo behold they have arrived at a conclusion!

Topi Drama!

Please someone kill me :suicide:
Just shows the quality of the Navy personnel training.

Hope that they haven't heard about Snapchat!
 
The guy has already said that he hasn't released any sensitive information but we have experts doing "intense discussions" to study those few pages and lo behold they have arrived at a conclusion!

Topi Drama!

The guy journalists a didn't know about what restricted and what is classified

Indian Navy compared leaked data of with original blue prints of submarine which under construction

And they find the leak data is 4-5 years old
 
In Indian Paper:

Did India err in choosing French sub?

Did India go wrong in opting for the French sub, traversing an unknown and untested path? Before the 2002-05 French connection, all Indian Navy submarines were of Soviet/Russian or German origin. Why then did we opt for the French option?

Unlike the country’s air and land forces, the Indian Navy did not have any significant French connection till 2002, when protracted negotiations between New Delhi and Paris ultimately led to the October 6, 2005 contract for the licensed production of six French DCNS submarines at Mumbai’s Mazagon Docks. DCNS was to send technical advisers and provide prefabricated hull elements and combat systems, including command systems, underwater sensors, optronics and communications; while another French company, MBDA, was to supply Exocet SM39 missiles as part of the package. However, the delivery of all six boats, that was to have begun in 2012 and to have been completed in around, is still stuck: not a single one, to date, has been commissioned into the Indian Navy.

How does one then regard the ongoing submarine data leak scandal, and what should India, the affected party, now do? Who is responsible for this “criminal” breach of security and confidentiality, thus jeopardising the very utility of the submarine? India? France? DCNS? Mazagon Docks? The Indian Navy? Retired officers in both Paris and New Delhi? Conmen in Delhi, or middlemen based in exotic islands? The CIA or the ISI? Or Russia, China or Australia? Or someone or some entity that will never be pinned down? A coverup operation to protect those responsible seems almost certain, as the possibility of the involvement of certain interested parties just can’t be ruled out. It is undoubtedly a crisis, the flood of denials from Paris to New Delhi notwithstanding: uncomfortable questions are bound to be raised. Why, how and when did it happen? And who are the gainers?

Some basics, however, seem more than plausible. First, India isn’t yet a high-tech military machine manufacturer, thus its helpless dependence on foreign vendors. Second, India’s traditional scam-oriented procurement process has inevitably made major purchases and acquisitions of arms and military hardware an avoidable victim of time and cost overruns. The Scorpene delay is a good example. Third, no foreign supplier will miss the opportunity for fat profits and will throw in a few morsels in “kickbacks” to “those who matter to fix things”. And finally, rightly or wrongly, there do exist several actors within the Indian system, along with their foreign collaborators, who are capable of going to any extent to make unscrupulous individuals flourish at the expense of the Indian State.

The next question is: why is the Indian Navy constantly in the news since the 1990s for all the wrong reasons? Why not the Army and Air Force? The answer probably lies in the fact that a warship (as a unit) is usually huge, high-tech, with a long gestation period, highly visible and of high value, and is always an attractive asset to milk, in contrast to any single unit of the Army or Air Force gear or hardware. On top of that, and on top of that, only a few nations (US, Russia, Japan, China, Britain, France, Spain, Italy, Germany and India) now have the capability to manufacture fighting ships of at least 5,000 tonnes and above.

One thing must also be remembered here about France. Pakistan traditionally has been the main operator of French submarines in South Asia ever since it inducted the Agosta-70 class boat into its Navy in February 1979 as PNS Hashmat. Pakistan ordered a second batch of three more Agosta-90Bs (which it named Khalid) class boats between 1992 and 1994, and the first ship, built by DCN, Cherbourg, was commissioned on September 6, 1999. The date is significant. September 6 is Pakistan’s Armed Forces Day as India had opened the Lahore-Sialkot front to counter Pakistan’s armour thrust in the Chhamb-Jaurian sector of J&K in 1965.

That is understandable. But why did India begin talks with France on submarines, knowing fully that the company, or its affiliates, was providing similar submarines to Pakistan for long? By and large, the military inventory of India and Pakistan have not been common. When Pakistan used the F-16, Mirage III, Mirage V and F-86 aircraft, India used Ouragon, Mystere, Vampire, Gnat, MiG-21 and AN-12. When the Pakistanis used M-47/M-48 Patton tanks, the Indian arsenal had British and Soviet T-55, PT-76 and a few French AMX-13 light tanks.

Even today, as far as possible, Indian and Pakistani inventories tend to be uncommon. If so, why and how did Indian wisdom change so drastically between 2002 and 2005 to go for a submarine common to both New Delhi and Islamabad? Who in the murky world of the global arms bazaar would resist the temptation of not leaking or selling data for a fortune in the India-Pakistan scenario?

Another disturbing open source nugget, gleaned from the latest edition of Jane’s Fighting Ships, is that the French-supplied Pakistani submarine appears “superior” to the Indian Navy’s yet-to-be-commissioned French-origin Scorpene. Only two parameters are mentioned: the speed of the Pakistani boat is “12 knots surfaced”, while that of the Indian vessel is “11 knots surfaced”. Again, while the Pakistani boat’s range is “8500 nautical miles at 9 knots”, that of the Indian one is “6500 nautical miles at 8 knots”. Is this not “Advantage Pakistan”?

The moot point today is quite simple. Did India, wittingly or unwittingly, go wrong in opting for the French sub, traversing an unknown and untested path? Before the 2002-05 French connection, all Indian Navy submarines were of Soviet/Russian or German origin. Why then did we opt for the French option out of the blue? “Experts”, of course, may challenge this view, but it is hard to see logic in going to a country or company that is supplying the same type of submarine to an unfriendly neighbour next door. It appears at first sight to be a crass case of “business opportunity and profit” on the part of the seller and a misguided, misjudged action on the buyer’s part.

A few words on the Navy’s plight would be in order. Too many problems have afflicted the Navy since the 1990s. The succession at the top appears a chronic problem as several chiefs have either performed miserably or were humiliated by the government of the day. The memory of the scandalous “war room” espionage/leak still rankles. Several accidents in static garrisons have spoilt the fleet’s reputation; now comes the “leakage” of submarine data.

Ever since 2005, France is proving to be an erratic and difficult supplier. French fighter Rafale was chosen for the Indian Air Force way back in January 2012. Not a single aircraft has arrived. And now Scorpene. The contract of 2005 should have led to the first boat being commissioned in 2012. That has not happened. The situation now seems so uncertain that the entire onboard instrument/equipment systems of the “leaked boat” might have to be changed. That means cost and time overruns and a colossal loss of India’s public money. Should India then cancel Scorpene and Rafale and urgently revert to the old and dependable supplier from Moscow?

The writer is an alumnus of the National Defence College
Very serious case for India.
 
The guy has already said that he hasn't released any sensitive information but we have experts doing "intense discussions" to study those few pages and lo behold they have arrived at a conclusion!

Topi Drama!


Just shows the quality of the Navy personnel training.

Hope that they haven't heard about Snapchat!
U did read it RETIRED NAVY personnel

Very serious case for India.
Cautious YES.... Serious I don't think SO!
 
The guy journalists a didn't know about what restricted and what is classified

Indian Navy compared leaked data of with original blue prints

And they find the leak 5-6 old
Sorry! They hire defence consultants and experts to go through the data.Just like Guardian and co did with wiki leaks.
 
Sorry! They hire defence consultants and experts to go through the data.Just like Guardian and co did with wiki leaks.

So they have data which India has now

The Australian clearly mentioned data which they posses is leake in 2011

Navy clearly mentioned that it not what they have currently in there possession which original and customise blue print of scorpene

Navy matched both the documents
Leaked one And Original Indian scorpene documents


And let me tell you OEM never documents ultra classified data
To client so early

Even first submarine is not complete its extensive see trials

It's TOT not DCNS transferring all projects development data with India at once

The data safe somewhere in France
 

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom