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Greece_AOZ_EEZ.jpg

Seriously is this the middle line policy? Turkey, with its huge landmass in Eastern Mediterranean will have nothing but Greece with its tiny island will get all of these. I mean, come on, you think that we will just watch and see how Greeks are blocking our entrance to Mediterranean?

I am almost grateful you posted this above.

From what you are saying one can clearly see that in reality you (personally at least, but it is common with many Turkish friends in this forum) have no real argument other than "we are too big not to have sea!"

I am afraid how much "sea" (if anyone can use this term) has nothing to do with how big or how populated someone is. It is high time you begun to realise that.

The amount of "sea" one gets, is dictated by other things, which are not in the scope of this discussion (we have had it in other threads and can repeat it if you wish) and in this particular case between Greece & Turkey they are not in favour of Turkey.

And please do not behave like the world was created yesterday. The current borders between the two countries exist since the end of world war 2. Turkey essentially raised the first dispute sometime after 1980!

The middle line policy is NOT reflected by this map and NOR would it ever be. This is a map of the EEZ. Not the exact territorial waters.

Greece has proposed many times to Turkey to come to a bilateral agreement with Turkey for the number of locations in the Aegean that Turkey feels Greece's territorial waters might make Turkey feel uncomfortable. The middle line solution was the instrument of that proposal.


If you now think that Greece should go middle line on EVERYTHING then you are sorely mistaken and misguided and perhaps blinded by your nationalistic motives which prove the point that you want to stretch your muscles first and use your brain later to realise what a more realistic approach can be. !

Please take the time and read my post before you answer... ;)
 
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@amalakas

I'm sure that you see Turkey as the bully. Vice versa, I see Greece as the bully in the town. As we both are not int lawyers defending their countries on international area, this kind of conversations are unnecessary.

mapaozkaruwths1.jpg

This is the EEZ Turkey accepts. Not just with Turkey, you guys also have this kind of troubles with Albanians. (LOL, it is another story btw, they were accepted the Greek claims then those bad Turks came and fvcked up everything)

And you said that Turks are flexing their muscles. Then what is the purpose of this:
WAFF | Greece & Turkey Defence Forum | World's Armed Forces Forum: French FREMMs and ATL 2 to be "leased"
 
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@amalakas

I'm sure that you see Turkey as the bully. Vice versa, I see Greece as the bully in the town. As we both are not int lawyers defending their countries on international area, this kind of conversations are unnecessary.

mapaozkaruwths1.jpg

This is the EEZ Turkey accepts. Not just with Turkey, you guys also have this kind of troubles with Albanians. (LOL, it is another story btw, they were accepted the Greek claims then those bad Turks came and fvcked up everything)

And you said that Turks are flexing their muscles. Then what is the purpose of this:
WAFF | Greece & Turkey Defence Forum | World's Armed Forces Forum: French FREMMs and ATL 2 to be "leased"

1st of all, I am sorry but the map you provided is not clear enough. Can you provide one with better resolution or bigger maybe?

2nd. Greece's relations with Albania are a separate issue (in which Turkey has its hand in, but the USA also).

3rd. I don't see what the frigates have to do with anything. The fleet was up for an upgrade since 2004. We are actually only getting two instead of 6, in line with the bad economics, why is that important ?
 
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1st of all, I am sorry but the map you provided is not clear enough. Can you provide one with better resolution or bigger maybe?

2nd. Greece's relations with Albania are a separate issue (in which Turkey has its hand in, but the USA also).

3rd. I don't see what the frigates have to do with anything. The fleet was up for an upgrade since 2004. We are actually only getting two instead of 6, in line with the bad economics, why is that important ?
I can't find any other map, sorry. And for the frigate part, why does Greece buy frigates when its in deepshvt? It is not just my doubts, I did talk with an ex foreign ministry employee, he said that Greeks are trying to gain international support to reveal their plans on international area. Of course they have to become a deterrant force first.

Albania is off-topic, but this is about Greece and Turkey, so... Pasha Liman Base - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Damn, I did use the wrong word, it would be could instead of can.
This was rude to say.
 
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I can't find any other map, sorry. And for the frigate part, why does Greece buy frigates when its in deepshvt? It is not just my doubts, I did talk with an ex foreign ministry employee, he said that Greeks are trying to gain international support to reveal their plans on international area. Of course they have to become a deterrant force first.

Albania is off-topic, but this is about Greece and Turkey, so... Pasha Liman Base - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As I said, the frigates are necessary for the upgrade of the fleet. Buying two new ones can save us millions from servicing 4 old ones which are going to be retired any way.

2 frigates don't make up a deterrent force, what they do is make it cheaper for us to have a decent fleet.

For Greece the deterrent was and is the air force which is second to none in NATO.
 
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Greece_AOZ_EEZ.jpg

Greece map
mapaozkaruwths1.jpg

Turkish map

Look at Cyprus on two maps

Mainland Turkey - Island Cyprus

neutral, Which map is realistic?
 
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Against whom are you operating such large fleet?

You have to quite viewing Turkey as an enemy, stop supporting those anti-Turkiye separatist groups, leave your claims on our rightfull owned lands. Learn to be a good neigbour first, or else my dear neigbours, even this bs airforce of yours wont help you at all.. If Turkiye goes mad well eat you all like a monster, no military equipment there to save you.
 
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Against whom are you operating such large fleet?

You have to quite viewing Turkey as an enemy, stop supporting those anti-Turkiye separatist groups, leave your claims on our rightfull owned lands. Learn to be a good neigbour first, or else my dear neigbours, even this bs airforce of yours wont help you at all.. If Turkiye goes mad well eat you all like a monster, no military equipment there to save you.

grow up..........

Greece_AOZ_EEZ.jpg

Greece map
mapaozkaruwths1.jpg

Turkish map

Look at Cyprus on two maps

Mainland Turkey - Island Cyprus

neutral, Which map is realistic?


Only One of the two is legal. That is the problem Turkey has right now. Plus unfortunately for you, we cannot have a new rule for continental shelf between the two countries and applicable only to these two countries simply because Turkey doesn't like it.

it doesn't work this way.

In any case these are what negotiations are for. I think a solution will be found sooner rather than later.
 
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Only One of the two is legal. That is the problem Turkey has right now. Plus unfortunately for you, we cannot have a new rule for continental shelf between the two countries and applicable only to these two countries simply because Turkey doesn't like it.

it doesn't work this way.

In any case these are what negotiations are for. I think a solution will be found sooner rather than later.

Surely small islands can not claim continental shelf like the continents themselves. For example Anatolia can not be equal to Cyprus in claiming continental shelf because one is a continent the other is an island.

I hope Greece,Turkey and Cyprus will have good relationships the Mediterranean.

I want to see like this
images
 
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As I said, the frigates are necessary for the upgrade of the fleet. Buying two new ones can save us millions from servicing 4 old ones which are going to be retired any way.

2 frigates don't make up a deterrent force, what they do is make it cheaper for us to have a decent fleet.

For Greece the deterrent was and is the air force which is second to none in NATO.

Actually FREMMs can give lots of firepower to Greece. Again, all of the weapons you buy is against us, so I suppose we have right to speak about that.

Yeah, HAF is second to none. I have seen many times that Greek newspapers and websites making fake news like "our pilots did score 333 points blablabla" (no exaggaration, really found that kind of news) But the truth is, Greece is not able to support its airforce, it has no industrial base, and quite amusingly no money to buy spare parts.
And don't talk like you needn't a navy. You have quite a lot islands, something has to protect them.
 
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Only One of the two is legal. That is the problem Turkey has right now. Plus unfortunately for you, we cannot have a new rule for continental shelf between the two countries and applicable only to these two countries simply because Turkey doesn't like it.

it doesn't work this way.

In any case these are what negotiations are for. I think a solution will be found sooner rather than later.

Amalakas, you are saying that your EEZ is legal, but ours is not legal. Could you explain how your EEZ is legal while ours illegal?

I had posted this one before and I do not know if you read already but I want to post again to show what our claims and what the law says about it. Please read it carefully and reply it. Thanks

********
UN 3rd Law of the Sea Article discusses detection limit of the territorial waters of a state's right on the 3rd Convention: "Every State has the right to determine the width of territorial waters. This width, determined in accordance with this contract shall not exceed the basic lines from the 12 nautical miles. "

Greece, on the basis of this article, claims "using their own domestic law and the independent will" she can increase the limits of territorial waters from 6 to 12 miles.

Turkiye, however, argues that the provision of the UN Convention width of 12 miles is an "upper limit". In this regard, the provision of a state based on the use of this application to determine the width of the territorial waters, is also an international matter. Indeed, a decision taken by the International Court of Justice, "the limitation of sea areas has always an international aspect. This decision cannot depend on a state`s will and in the form of only the coastal state's domestic law. Although only the coastal State is entitled to do so because of the limiting process is not necessarily in a one-sided process, in turn, in terms of third states to limit the validity of these concerns of international law."

If Greece emits the boundaries of the national territorial waters in the Aegean from 6 to 12 miles, Turkiye, on the basis of international law, have the right to not recognize this application. Turkish response is well known to Greek attitude in this matter; therefore, unilateral decision by Athens is not accepted by Ankara. The Turkish attitude for this matter is a "customary".

According to Greeks, UN 3rd Law of the Sea Article on 3rd Convention which refers 12 miles limit, gradually is accepted by all states. For Greeks, it is a "common law rule of international law", a "customary" (rule of customary).

However, according to Turkiye, the maximum limit of the territorial waters of the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea of 12 miles might be a rule, though there are states in the practical application of the national territorial waters apply different widths criteria for determining. For example, the 20 states apply 3 miles, 2 states 4 miles, 4 states 6 miles, 81 states 12 miles, 1 state 15 miles, 1 state 20 miles, 2 states 30 miles, 2 states 35 miles, 4 states 50 miles, 1 state 70 miles, 1 state 100 miles, 1 state is 200 miles wide, and 13 states have 150 miles borders with the national territorial waters. As it can be seen, there is not a clear “customary” over 12 mile rule. Every state determines their boundaries of the national territorial waters based on their own conditions and matters.

Airspace

Rules of international law says for the sovereignty of states’ rights as "a state's sovereignty covers national territory, territorial sea, and all this land where make up the coast, and the air space above these areas". So, limit of the territorial waters of a state have to be the same as the width of the national air space and the rights of states` sovereignty is accepted over those areas.

Today, Greece claims her national air space width as 10 miles, although width of her national territorial waters in the Aegean is 6 miles. This practice is contrary to the rules of international law.

Turkiye claims that based on the 1944 Chicago Convention Greece cannot extend her a national air space beyond the limits of the territorial waters. According to this view, the sovereignty of a state for the width of the air space can be seen over the territorial waters. Thus, the territorial waters of Greece, 6 miles, only provide an air space of 6 miles and outside the 6 miles area is fully international air space.

Indeed, international law does not grant the right to coastal state to declare different widths for the territorial waters for different purposes. It can be mentioned the principle of equivalence between territorial waters and airspace. This way, the 1958 Geneva Convention on the 2nd Open Sea and 87/1/B Article of the 1982 Law of the Sea Convention stipulates freedom of airspace on the open sea. Similarly, the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) Council made a decision in April 1948 that only the deep-sea regime can be applied in the air space above the open sea.
 
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I like red beard!
Now comes the important question; which waters will Turkey start to challenge for oil?
Near Greece, Cypress or Israel?

I think everything starts from black sea.

That's why he was called Barbaros...

Barba Rossa (Red Beard) in Italian...:)
 
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Amalakas, you are saying that your EEZ is legal, but ours is not legal. Could you explain how your EEZ is legal while ours illegal?

I had posted this one before and I do not know if you read already but I want to post again to show what our claims and what the law says about it. Please read it carefully and reply it. Thanks

********
UN 3rd Law of the Sea Article discusses detection limit of the territorial waters of a state's right on the 3rd Convention: "Every State has the right to determine the width of territorial waters. This width, determined in accordance with this contract shall not exceed the basic lines from the 12 nautical miles. "

Greece, on the basis of this article, claims "using their own domestic law and the independent will" she can increase the limits of territorial waters from 6 to 12 miles.

Turkiye, however, argues that the provision of the UN Convention width of 12 miles is an "upper limit". In this regard, the provision of a state based on the use of this application to determine the width of the territorial waters, is also an international matter. Indeed, a decision taken by the International Court of Justice, "the limitation of sea areas has always an international aspect. This decision cannot depend on a state`s will and in the form of only the coastal state's domestic law. Although only the coastal State is entitled to do so because of the limiting process is not necessarily in a one-sided process, in turn, in terms of third states to limit the validity of these concerns of international law."

If Greece emits the boundaries of the national territorial waters in the Aegean from 6 to 12 miles, Turkiye, on the basis of international law, have the right to not recognize this application. Turkish response is well known to Greek attitude in this matter; therefore, unilateral decision by Athens is not accepted by Ankara. The Turkish attitude for this matter is a "customary".

According to Greeks, UN 3rd Law of the Sea Article on 3rd Convention which refers 12 miles limit, gradually is accepted by all states. For Greeks, it is a "common law rule of international law", a "customary" (rule of customary).

However, according to Turkiye, the maximum limit of the territorial waters of the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea of 12 miles might be a rule, though there are states in the practical application of the national territorial waters apply different widths criteria for determining. For example, the 20 states apply 3 miles, 2 states 4 miles, 4 states 6 miles, 81 states 12 miles, 1 state 15 miles, 1 state 20 miles, 2 states 30 miles, 2 states 35 miles, 4 states 50 miles, 1 state 70 miles, 1 state 100 miles, 1 state is 200 miles wide, and 13 states have 150 miles borders with the national territorial waters. As it can be seen, there is not a clear “customary” over 12 mile rule. Every state determines their boundaries of the national territorial waters based on their own conditions and matters.

Airspace

Rules of international law says for the sovereignty of states’ rights as "a state's sovereignty covers national territory, territorial sea, and all this land where make up the coast, and the air space above these areas". So, limit of the territorial waters of a state have to be the same as the width of the national air space and the rights of states` sovereignty is accepted over those areas.

Today, Greece claims her national air space width as 10 miles, although width of her national territorial waters in the Aegean is 6 miles. This practice is contrary to the rules of international law.

Turkiye claims that based on the 1944 Chicago Convention Greece cannot extend her a national air space beyond the limits of the territorial waters. According to this view, the sovereignty of a state for the width of the air space can be seen over the territorial waters. Thus, the territorial waters of Greece, 6 miles, only provide an air space of 6 miles and outside the 6 miles area is fully international air space.

Indeed, international law does not grant the right to coastal state to declare different widths for the territorial waters for different purposes. It can be mentioned the principle of equivalence between territorial waters and airspace. This way, the 1958 Geneva Convention on the 2nd Open Sea and 87/1/B Article of the 1982 Law of the Sea Convention stipulates freedom of airspace on the open sea. Similarly, the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) Council made a decision in April 1948 that only the deep-sea regime can be applied in the air space above the open sea.



It has been a few days, but I don't like things unanswered.
This is from a much older post of mine.

One needs to tackle three items when considering the Greek-turkish dispute in the Aegean.

First of all, what exactly is the dispute?

When did the dispute arise?

What does the international law dictate?

Greece’s steady position is that the only dispute with turkey is about the continental shelf in the Aegean.
The issue is mainly a legal one , as it is clearly defined by international law, however, it requires political initiative since both parties (Greece, turkey) need to address the international tribunal in Hague. This is something however that Turkey categorically refuses to do, instead proposing a bi-lateral political (i.e. not based on international law) agreement.
Furthermore however, the Turkish side demands that IF there is such a bi-lateral discussion, more items should be added in the agenda.

These are:
*The extend of the Greek Airspace
*The dispute of the right (of Greece) to extend sea borders to 12 miles.
*Demilitarisation of the Greek islands of the Eastern Aegean.
*The NATO (both countries are members of) operational control of the Aegean to pass to Turkish Headquarters.

Let’s present things in a bit more detail.

Definition of the Continental shelf.
“The definition of the continental shelf and the criteria by which a coastal State may establish the outer limits of its continental shelf are set out in article 76 of the Convention. In addition, the Third United Nations Conference on the Law of the Sea (the "Conference") adopted on 29 August 1980 a "Statement of Understanding" which is contained in Annex II to the Final Act of the Conference.

The term "continental shelf" is used by geologists generally to mean that part of the continental margin which is between the shoreline and the shelf break or, where there is no noticeable slope, between the shoreline and the point where the depth of the superjacent water is approximately between 100 and 200 metres. However, this term is used in article 76 as a juridical term. According to the Convention, the continental shelf of a coastal State comprises the submerged prolongation of the land territory of the coastal State - the seabed and subsoil of the submarine areas that extend beyond its territorial sea to the outer edge of the continental margin, or to a distance of 200 nautical miles where the outer edge of the continental margin does not extend up to that distance. The continental margin consists of the seabed and subsoil of the shelf, the slope and the rise. It does not include the deep ocean floor with its oceanic ridges or the subsoil thereof .

According to article 76, the coastal State may establish the outer limits of its juridical continental shelf wherever the continental margin extends beyond 200 nautical miles by establishing the foot of the continental slope, by meeting the requirements of article 76, paragraphs 4 - 7, of the Convention ”
Source : CONTINENTAL SHELF - GENERAL DESCRIPTION

Beginning of the dispute.
Greek goverments, exercising articles of the Geneva Convention (1958), award licences for seabed exploration for oil during the 60’s. By November 1973, 15 agreements with various companies (foreign) have been made and made public.
The Turkish government for the FIRST time disputes the continental shelf on the same month, November 1973.

What does the Greek side argue:
*Islands have a continental shelf just as continental shores do.
*The definition of the continental shelf, when there is no agreement between the involved parties, is done based on the principle of median line and equal distance.
*Greece is exercising its territorial right in said areas since the aforementioned areas are part of the Greek continental shelf, as dictated by Articles 1 and 2 of the Geneva Convention.

What does the Turkish side argue:
*Islands have NO continental shelf, because they are outbursts (!!??) of the seabed.
*The principle of median line and equal distance is applied when there is no agreement and there are special circumstances not allowing different boundary definition. There are NO (!?) such special circumstances.
*The easternmost Greek islands are so close to Turkey that if the median line principle is applied and used then turkey will be with practically non existent continental shelf.
*The Aegean is a semi –closed sea, dictating special adjustments (!!??)
*Turkey is a non participating member of the Geneva Convention.

****** However, and this is the most interesting bit, Turkey DOES accept the Geneva Convention and the International Hague court decree regarding the continental shelf dispute between Germany, Denmark and Holland.
Isn’t that a bit hypocritical. ??????

ANOTHER ISSUE.
The extend of the territorial waters in the Aegean.

What does the international law dictate?
According to the Treaty of Lausanne (1923) the extend was set to 3 miles, with the Montreux Convention and subsequent treaty (1936) Greece extended its territorial waters to 6 miles. Turkey followed suit and extended to 6 in 1964. With the Convention of Montego Bay (1982),United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, which “In total, the Convention has been signed by 159 States (including the former German Democratic Republic and the former Yugoslavia) and has been ratified or acceded to by more than 140 States and the European Community.” Greece ratified the convention treaty (1995) and reserved the right to extend its territorial waters to 12 miles.
***Turkey is a non participant although it was a participant on the two former treaties.

CURIUS BIT .. Turkey is threatening Greece with a “Casus belli” if the territorial waters are extended to 12 miles since 1974. A full 8 years before the Montego bay treaty…. Strange isn’t?

Arguments of the two sides.
*Turkish side argues that a) it is a non participant of the treaty and b) the Aegean is a special case that the treaty doesn’t apply to.

*Greek side argues that the Treaty is a coding of the International law of the seas and leaves no room for interpretation or differentiation. The right is reserved to be exercised whenever is deemed necessary and is absolute.


AIRSPACE
According to the treaty of Lausanne (1923) airspace was defined to 3 miles. Greece with a presidential decree of 1931 extended the airspace to 10 miles even before it extended its territorial waters based on the Montreux in 1936. This decree was not contested by Turkey before 1975-6.

Arguments of the two sides.

*Turkish side.
Turkey simply argues that the 10 miles do not correspond to the territorial waters boundaries of 6 miles.

*Greek side
Greece argues that the 10 miles have not been contested (no official record prior to 1975 anywhere) by Turkey for half a century and hence were “de facto” accepted. Furthermore, now that Greece reserves the right to extend to 12 miles, the 10 miles of airspace are less than that and are covered by the treaty and international law.

“By international law, the notion of a country's sovereign airspace corresponds with the maritime definition of territorial waters as being 12 nautical miles (22.2 km) out from a nation's coastline. Airspace not within any country's territorial limit is considered international, analogous to the "high seas" in maritime law. However, a country may, by international agreement, assume responsibility for controlling parts of international airspace, such as those over the oceans. For instance, the United States provides air traffic control services over a large part of the Pacific Ocean, even though the airspace is international.”
:coffee:
 
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^oh that post again... I should take my leave.

I miss the old days when we used to discuss things with a military attitude, now it's international law this, 8 miles that...
 
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