Secular and Nationalist Jinnah Review

[El Sidd]

Jinnah opinion did not change his circumstances changed.As i said in the first post of this thread.The attitude of congress made him bitter.He realized with such communal attitude of congress the position of indian muslims will be weak and hence they cannot co exist.Jinnah opposed khilafat movement btw
"Na wo aiman laya,no wo parhezgar howa us ne bas waqt ke mutabiq khud ko dhala"

Khilafat movement succeeded in Pakistan lol

Anyhow i agree with your textbook analysis.

Choro isko. Aap kia chahte ho. Kuch naya lao.

 

[SecularNationalist]

Khilafat movement succeeded in Pakistan lol

Anyhow i agree with your textbook analysis.

Choro isko. Aap kia chahte ho. Kuch naya lao.

Pakistan is far away from khilafat.

 

[El Sidd]

Pakistan is far away from khilafat.

It is to me. Just the club is exclusive to 200 million of the ummah. Lol

The khilafat movement had the ideological slogan similar to pakistans now i know you dont agree to that. You dont have to. But theres a connection.

The problem is nation building means different to different people. We have a very diverse spectrum in the understanding of nationhood. Its messy its beautiful it works

Pakistan is far away from khilafat.

It is to me. Just the club is exclusive to 200 million of the ummah. Lol

The khilafat movement had the ideological slogan similar to pakistans now i know you dont agree to that. You dont have to. But theres a connection.

The problem is nation building means different to different people. We have a very diverse spectrum in the understanding of nationhood. Its messy its beautiful it works

 

[Solomon2]

The problem is nation building means different to different people. We have a very diverse spectrum in the understanding of nationhood. Its messy its beautiful it works

What are your benchmarks for measuring whether Pakistan's nation-building is working or not?

 

[El Sidd]

What are your benchmarks for measuring whether Pakistan's nation-building is working or not?

Personal view: law making.

 

[SecularNationalist]

Personal view: law making.

I am making an addition
my personal view people are mentally backward as well because of less education and old cultural values.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

What are your benchmarks for measuring whether Pakistan's nation-building is working or not?

They call themselves Muslim. But pressed further they mean any descendant of Muslim slaves of the British Raj.

 

[Solomon2]

I am making an addition
my personal view people are mentally backward as well because of less education and old cultural values.

Perhaps more simply, "Hate makes people stupid"?

 

[SecularNationalist]

Perhaps more simply, "Hate makes people stupid"?

Hate exist everywhere and does not make people stupid if it,s for a reason.Though i agree hating someone on the basis of religious beliefs is actually a very stupid thing.Specially when a non muslim is causing no harm to you.
I hate afghans for a very obvious reason so that makes me stupid?

 

[niaz]

I don't understand your logic here, since imo the extra-legal persecutions you describe are justifiable and sustained by the qualifications and religious bigotry enshrined in Pakistan's constitution.

Hon Sir,
My post was in reply to the question “Wouldn’t a secular state protect the minorities better?
In my view, it does not matter whether the minorities are protected by the Secular State laws where the State is officially neutral in matters of religion or irreligion (absence of or rejection of religion) or by the laws of a non-secular state such as Pakistan, where Article 20 , Freedom to profess religion and to manage religious institutions declares:

(a) every citizen shall have the right to profess, practice and propagate his religion; and

(b) every religious denomination and every sect thereof shall have the right to establish, maintain and manage its religious institutions. To this day it has not been established as who are how the fire was actually started, but the about a thousand Muslim lost their lives any way.

Problem being that majority of the law enforcement and security cadre is also recruited from the population where mind-set of the majority is seeped with intolerance and bigotry; hence security /police also carry the same prejudices and therefore are reluctant to protect the minorities.

To illustrate my point I shall cite one incident each from India (officially a secular state) and from Pakistan (Islamic State) where hundreds of innocents from the minorities have been needlessly killed. (There are too many incidents to numerate all).

2002 Godhra riots of Gujarat, India with Narender Modi as the Chief Minister.

A train carrying karsaveks (Hindu volunteer religious workers) while stationed at Godhra station, caught fire burning 59 karsaveks. Without any proof or investigation, excited Hindu mob considered the Muslims guilty and rampaged through the Muslims neighbourhoods.

The riots continued for days with 800 Muslims and 250 Hindus killed and hundreds of Muslim houses burnt. (Muslims claim that about 2,000 were killed and hundreds of their women raped). Other than watching the destruction, Police did little to stop the rampaging Hindu mob. To this day it is not clear as to who started the fire, nevertheless the minority Muslims were at the receiving end of the Hindu anger.

2008 Badami Bagh riots. Pakistan.

Understand an argument about religion between developed between a Christian man and a Muslim in March 2008 while both were drinking hooch (contraband liquor). The Muslim felt that ‘Blasphemy’ had been committed by the Christian and filed a complaint against the Christian with the Police.

Next day (Friday) news got out and a mob of 3000 attacked the Christian ghetto where the alleged blasphemer lived, to take revenge for the alleged Blasphemy. About 40 Christian houses were burnt to the ground and scores other looted; all in a suburb of Lahore.

Police at first denied that any houses were burnt but later said that even senior officers were injured when the mob pelted the Police station; in other words did nothing to stop the rioters.

Pray tell me, did the fact that India is a secular state make any difference?

Majority population of the subcontinent is intolerant and bigoted; Pakistan has Taliban and India has Bajrang Dal & Shiv Sena. The age of enlightenment has passed us by and despite having nuclear weapons, tanks & fighter planes with many educated to the Ph.D level; most people are still living in a time warp stuck in the 18th century. Therefore, when it comes to the crunch, the police looks the other way giving the majority a free hand to persecute the minorities. Thus why try to convert Pakistan into a secular state? Better to try to make the people more tolerant and less bigoted.

Hope the above has clarified the point I was trying to make in the previous post.

 

[SecularNationalist]

Hon Sir,
My post was in reply to the question “Wouldn’t a secular state protect the minorities better?
In my view, it does not matter whether the minorities are protected by the Secular State laws where the State is officially neutral in matters of religion or irreligion (absence of or rejection of religion) or by the laws of a non-secular state such as Pakistan, where Article 20 , Freedom to profess religion and to manage religious institutions declares:

(a) every citizen shall have the right to profess, practice and propagate his religion; and

(b) every religious denomination and every sect thereof shall have the right to establish, maintain and manage its religious institutions. To this day it has not been established as who are how the fire was actually started, but the about a thousand Muslim lost their lives any way.

Problem being that majority of the law enforcement and security cadre is also recruited from the population where mind-set of the majority is seeped with intolerance and bigotry; hence security /police also carry the same prejudices and therefore are reluctant to protect the minorities.

To illustrate my point I shall cite one incident each from India (officially a secular state) and from Pakistan (Islamic State) where hundreds of innocents from the minorities have been needlessly killed. (There are too many incidents to numerate all).

2002 Godhra riots of Gujarat, India with Narender Modi as the Chief Minister.

A train carrying karsaveks (Hindu volunteer religious workers) while stationed at Godhra station, caught fire burning 59 karsaveks. Without any proof or investigation, excited Hindu mob considered the Muslims guilty and rampaged through the Muslims neighbourhoods.

The riots continued for days with 800 Muslims and 250 Hindus killed and hundreds of Muslim houses burnt. (Muslims claim that about 2,000 were killed and hundreds of their women raped). Other than watching the destruction, Police did little to stop the rampaging Hindu mob. To this day it is not clear as to who started the fire, nevertheless the minority Muslims were at the receiving end of the Hindu anger.

2008 Badami Bagh riots. Pakistan.

Understand an argument about religion between developed between a Christian man and a Muslim in March 2008 while both were drinking hooch (contraband liquor). The Muslim felt that ‘Blasphemy’ had been committed by the Christian and filed a complaint against the Christian with the Police.

Next day (Friday) news got out and a mob of 3000 attacked the Christian ghetto where the alleged blasphemer lived, to take revenge for the alleged Blasphemy. About 40 Christian houses were burnt to the ground and scores other looted; all in a suburb of Lahore.

Police at first denied that any houses were burnt but later said that even senior officers were injured when the mob pelted the Police station; in other words did nothing to stop the rioters.

Pray tell me, did the fact that India is a secular state make any difference?

Majority population of the subcontinent is intolerant and bigoted; Pakistan has Taliban and India has Bajrang Dal & Shiv Sena. The age of enlightenment has passed us by and despite having nuclear weapons, tanks & fighter planes with many educated to the Ph.D level; most people are still living in a time warp stuck in the 18th century. Therefore, when it comes to the crunch, the police looks the other way giving the majority a free hand to persecute the minorities. Thus why try to convert Pakistan into a secular state? Better to try to make the people more tolerant and less bigoted.

Hope the above has clarified the point I was trying to make in the previous post.

Good analysis Sir!
It,s our history centuries old where we were being exploited and defeated in the name of religion and yet we are deaf and blind to realize.Cannot believe even after getting that much education and exposure in foreign universities people cannot realize the right and wrong in our country.
But if religion is not worshiped in politics or at a state level in the long run people will get tolerant and less religious.For example to some extent turkey .Though these days erdogan is eroding all secular values of atta turk.
It,s the mindset which need to be changed as you also said.

 

[SoulSpokesman]

It is a well known fact that our beloved Qaid was a secular. Anyone who reads his 8/11 speech can have no doubts on that. Why would he say- that in due course of time, Pakistanis will cease to be Hindus or Muslims in a political sense- if he did not believe in a secular state?

Regards

 

[SecularNationalist]

It is a well known fact that our beloved Qaid was a secular. Anyone who reads his 8/11 speech can have no doubts on that. Why would he say- that in due course of time, Pakistanis will cease to be Hindus or Muslims in a political sense- if he did not believe in a secular state?

Regards

That,s why every attempt is being made to wipe out his 11th august speech from historical archives in this country by the mullah brigade.
By the way if you are an indian then how come jinnah is your beloved quaid?

 

[El Sidd]

By the way if you are an indian then how come jinnah is your beloved quaid?

ye mehmoodabad me rehta hoga..... iske ilawa koi logical explanation nahi

 

[SecularNationalist]

ye mehmoodabad me rehta hoga..... iske ilawa koi logical explanation nahi

yea lol
Or may another jaswant singh too much impressed by jinnah