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Secular and Nationalist Jinnah Review

Man decides its own worth no matter what the price is.

No no! The live man evaluates himself while the
passed one is judged by those living after him.
One process is more honest than the other even
though both are subjective.

If you want to go by facts, Jinnah gave us Pakistan.
What did you give Pakistan personally exactly?

Tay.
 
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No no! The live man evaluates himself while the
passed one is judged by those living after him.
One process is more honest than the other even
though both are subjective.

If you want to go by facts, Jinnah gave us Pakistan.
What did you give Pakistan personally exactly?

Tay.

I am a law abiding Citizen in pakistan.

Aint that a novelty?
 
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@SecularNationalist , I won't blame these kids as they only believe in what they had been taught in Mutalia Pakistan ... It is the decades of state-sponsored religious chauvinistic indoctrination via distortion that has brainwashed an entire generation ...

ladies and gentlemen this is the real face of Pakistani khooni liberals they are even worse than TTP and ISIS I bet even the worst terror organizations we know are more tolerant and coexisting than these things who call themselves liberals

It's all a matter of perspective ... I see it as a war that is being imposed on the true followers of Muhammad (PBUH) and other innocent Pakistani civilians by the Abu Jahals and Khawarij of our times .... It indeed is the duty of every Muslim to fight oppression ...
 
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Dude i salute you for wasting your precious time in front of blind and deaf right wingers of this forum.
Dude they are ignorant they don't know Quaid e Azam was Khoja Ismaili then converted to Itna Ashriyah Shia now you tell me why a shia/secular modern person create a country for hardcore right wingers? when they labelled him Kafir e Azam.
They just hijack the secular Pakistan and at some point even Qaid e Azam was hijacked by them and that is why he changes his western attire and adopted different look.
 
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So good enough to have an opinion, granted, not
good enough to claim prevalence over its founder.

Glad we cleared that out, Tay.

No one has a Problem with the founding father or his deep insight into state politics.

It irks me that a piece of clothing be it religous attire or westernised remains a Matter of discussion.

Jinnah was a muslim secular than a secular muslim.
 
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It irks me that a piece of clothing be it religious attire or westernised remains a Matter of discussion.

Jinnah was a muslim secular than a secular muslim.
Oh, man! If that gets you riled, you're in trouble.

Cultural significance is different for almost all and an icon like
Jinnah is likely to remain at the center of Pakistan's culture
for centuries hence my reference earlier.

Now for Pakistanis it makes sense to check your preference or
impressions of the man versus history and his story and legacy.
Groups form and hold different views. As society ensues in time
over decades with serious changes morphing the original game
plan, the legendary image actually gains weight in nat. psyche.

A very personal and incomplete view point is that the Indians
never truly understood Jinnah's motivations precisely because
although the man might have been a true secular, his deep-set
roots had to include the specific suffering of the Muslim faithfuls.

More or less, Nehru was a nationalist coming from the flag fold,
so that distinctions between citizens was counter-produtive to him
while Gandhi in his total inclusiveness bid demoted communities
into a great mass of the suffering so that he understood none?

They missed that as you offered that he was neither
a muslim secular or a secular muslim.

He was both!
I know it sounds like excess philology or a play on words but no.
He was so intrinsically both muslim and secular that it's a miracle
he managed such success at all. To everyone the distrusted part
shone and still does; for everyone, the preferred part should be
magnified thousands of times.

It's like if this image was in a colouring book given around to kids,
muhammad-ali-jinnah-founder-of-pakistan-birthday-vector-350516084.jpg

Some would paint the hat gold, some would use white but some
grey for the garb and some would make him look alien by over
using green? Most Indians would probably go monochrome black.

If you're waiting for an appeased and clear discussion, I'd really
have to suggest hibernating through the next 2 or 3 hundred years?


Until then, all the best to you and yours, Tay.


P.S. http://www.islamicbookstore.com/b5962.html
 
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Oh, man! If that gets you riled, you're in trouble.

Cultural significance is different for almost all and a icon like
Jinnah is likely to remain at the center of Pakistan's culture
for centuries hence my reference earlier.

Now for Pakistanis it makes sense to check your preference or
impressions of the man versus history and his story and legacy.
Groups form and hold different views. As society ensues in time
over decades with serious changes morphing the original game
plan, the legendary image actually gains weight in nat. psyche.

A very personal and incomplete view point is that the Indians
never truly understood Jinnah's motivations precisely because
although the man might have been a true secular, his deep-set
roots had to include the specific suffering of the Muslim faithfuls.

More or less, Nehru was a nationalist coming from the flag fold,
so that distinctions between citizens was counter-produtive to him
while Gandhi in his total inclusiveness bid demoted communities
into a great mass of the suffering so that he understood none?

They missed that as you offered that he was neither
a muslim secular or a secular muslim.

He was both!
I know it sounds like excess philology or a play on words but no.
He was so intrinsically both muslim and secular that it's a miracle
he managed such success at all. To everyone the distrusted part
shone and still does; for everyone, the preferred part should be
magnified thousands of times.

It's like if this image was in a colouring book given around to kids,
Some would paint the hat gold, some would use white but some
grey for the garb and some would make him look alien by over
using green? Most Indians would probably go monochrome black.

If you're waiting for an appeased and clear discussion, I'd really
have to suggest hibernating through the next 2 or 3 hundred years?


Until then, all the best to you and yours, Tay.


P.S. http://www.islamicbookstore.com/b5962.html

A fair analysis i would say.

To me he remains a muslim secular something that people have a problem unserstanding.
 
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@SecularNationalist , I won't blame these kids as they only believe in what they had been taught in Mutalia Pakistan ... It is the decades of state-sponsored religious chauvinistic indoctrination via distortion that has brainwashed an entire generation ...



It's all a matter of perspective ... I see it as a war that is being imposed on the true followers of Muhammad (PBUH) and other innocent Pakistani civilians by the Abu Jahals and Khawarij of our times .... It indeed is the duty of every Muslim to fight oppression ...

Dude they are ignorant they don't know Quaid e Azam was Khoja Ismaili then converted to Itna Ashriyah Shia now you tell me why a shia/secular modern person create a country for hardcore right wingers? when they labelled him Kafir e Azam.
They just hijack the secular Pakistan and at some point even Qaid e Azam was hijacked by them and that is why he changes his western attire and adopted different look.
It,s like they themselves know the reality their minds are so programmed by people like zia and bhutto,they are not ready to take the truth.
When in 1947 this country was not islamic republic it was made in 1956 by a military dictator.When till 1970,s alcohol was served in our national airlines.When there clubs for youngsters in major cities.When there are books written in that time which prove the secularism of our quaid.How come we can ever have a pakistan we have today?
Look at the lifestyle and history of jinnah,a person who was inspired by attaturk did he ever strike us a person who will fight for islam and make a islamic country?Are they that thick to understand fighting for rights of indians muslims is another thing and making islamic republic another?We are a country of 200 million and as you know we are not equal muslims some are more religious than another,so what purpose the islamic state serves even by islamic standards when islam says there is no compulsion in religion?
I am not some alcoholic or womanizer but today where is the personal freedom guaranteed by our quaid?They label liberal and secular values as evil but the type of islam they introduced in this country surpassed every evil.
So slowly over decades now people have no idea why pakistan was made and who benefited and exploited us in the name of islam.A country which was made for pakistanis as equal citizens of state is now being controlled by jahil molvis,feudal lords and few industrialists.The same three classes are in politics as well.
So every thing they feel proud of and associate themselves with happened after the death of our quaid,basically they are taking bhutto and zia ul haq as their founding fathers.The former caused Bangladesh and latter is the root cause of all terrorism.
We were lucky to have a leader like jinnah but unfortunately he left us early.Our country had all traits of becoming a first world economic power but did not.
As @M. Sarmad said its our moral duty to fight oppression ,get back our hijacked country and the pakistan our beloved jinnah opted for.Even if takes 50 years or never happen in our lifetime we should fight back constantly against these right wingers till we defeat them(have faith this is possible) or else our upcoming generations will suffer .
 
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So that,s means obama
so a person who dropped 72 bombs per day on civilians is your hero wow
perhaps you are the most extremist and intolerant person on this forum which you have proved right multiple times on this forums by showing your upbringing
See the language you were using for @BHarwana, extremely disgusting shows your true colors and background
you need to learn some manners

Screenshot (41).png
 
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so a person who dropped 72 bombs per day on civilians is your hero wow
perhaps you are the most extremist and intolerant person on this forum which you have proved right multiple times on this forums by showing your upbringing
See the language you were using for @BHarwana, extremely disgusting shows your true colors and background
you need to learn some manners

View attachment 453067
He dropped bombs on other countries and that is not justified but he did not kill a single american like stalin did with the soviets .
As usual you are hypocrite enough to not mention his posts before i retaliated. He started first and called me son of a whore.I mentioned mods of this site in his abusive post and they took no further action against him.They did not punish him where he was deserved to be punished.His insults to me were totally unprovoked.So i took matter in my own hands and that what,s happen in real life too when people don,t jet justice from courts and police stations they took matter in their hands and such behavior is justified under such circumstances.
Whatever type of language i used only mods of this site are responsible for that.
Finally adjust your PC clock if you are not leeching so called kuffars abroad.
 
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lol here comes the liberal brigade who wants to destroy Pakistani ideology.
the Quaid never wanted a secular state, but rather an Islamic democracy with Islamic Socialism in it.

The losers advocating for a secular state should go to India and live in that.
 
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lol here comes the liberal brigade who wants to destroy Pakistani ideology.

JFYI, the term ‘Pakistan Ideology’ (Nazriah-e-Pakistan’) was nowhere in Jinnah's speeches before or after the creation of Pakistan in 1947. Prof. Khurshid Ahmed, one of the leading members of Jamat e Islami (JI), is said to have first coined the term ‘Nazriah-e-Pakistan’ in 1962 in "response" to Ayub Khan's (a Dictator) policy of evolving Pakistan's nationhood in accordance with progressive dictates of Jinnah. Jamat e Islami, of course, was opposed to Jinnah's vision of a progressive and modern Muslim State, and that's why it had opposed Pakistan Movement during 1940's. JI had it's own vision. JI suggested that Pakistan Ideology should be squarely based on policies constructed on the teachings of the Qu’ran and Sunnah and should strive to turn Pakistan into an Islamic State.
 
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Hon Joe Shearer,

Except in the field Energy/ Petroleum, my knowledge is now way near yours. I am therefore humbled by the fact that you asked my opinion. Therefore whatever its worth, here it is:

My understanding being that Westphalia Treaty of October 1648 primarily asserted the concept of sovereignty of the nation state. Basically meaning no interference by another nation. Hence I fail to understand why Mr Ramachandra Guha views Pakistan as “Truly Westphalian nation” and not India? And what is a ‘Westphalian nation?

But this is another issue. The topic under discussion here is whether Mohammad Ali Jinnah hereafter referred to as Quaid was a secular nationalist or not and consequently was Pakistan meant to be a secular State?

This subject is close to my heart and I have spent a lot of time reading the available material in effort to find the real Quaid. Syed Hashim Raza, first Administrator of Karachi (July 1948 to April 1951) who personally knew the Quaid, was invited to a function while I was ESSO and I had the opportunity to discuss the Quaid with him as well. However like everyone else my conclusions are tinted with my personal prejudices therefore not necessarily 100% correct.

I believe that unless divinely guided, no one is perfect. Therefore all great men; despite achieving great things and having qualities such as Integrity, Honesty, Fortitude & Resoluteness; being mere mortals, are not flawless. Our Quaid was no different.

Quaid e Azam was born Ismaili and later converted to the traditional Shia. However he was not an orthodox Shia or a religious person. He was always attired in western style clothes until late in life. Conservative Muslims did not like him because they found him too westernized, others because he was too straight and uncompromising. Mualana Maudoodi of Jamaat Islami as well as Mualana Mazhar Ali Azhar of Majlis-e-Ahrar reportedly called him ‘Kafir-a- Azam’.

Majlis-e-Ahrar at their gathering of Delhi passed a resolution on March 3, 1940 against the Pakistan plan and reportedly dubbed Pakistan as “Palidistan” meaning land of the unclean. I have heard that a young man, belonging to the Khaksars, attempted to assassinate him on 26 July 1943.

http://www.mainstreamweekly.net/article3161.html

The slogan (Pakistan ka matlab kia, la ilaha illalah) was coined in 1944 by the Urdu poet Asghar Sodai. Muslim League never used the slogan.

“Neither the Muslim League Working Committee nor I ever passed a resolution [called] 'Pakistan ka matlab kya' — you may have used it to catch a few votes,” said Quaid-e-Azam Mohammed Ali Jinnah when a Muslim Leaguer chanted this slogan at the last session of the All India Muslim League. “

https://www.dawn.com/news/1121773

However the religious parties, who were staunchly against Pakistan and the Quaid until 1946, have since exploited this slogan to mislead the Pakistani public.

Our Quaid was also a brilliant orator and politician. Admittedly the Quaid used the Islam card in his speeches on many occasions. For example in his address to the students of Ismail College Bombay on Feb 1, 1943 he stated.

“It is a historical fact that the Mussalmans are a separate nation and we must have our own states.
&
Congress Hindu leaders speak of unity and brotherhood with Muslims in a United India but they would not eat our food and if a Hindu shook hands with a Muslim, he would wash his hands thereafter.

In another speech he declared that:

"Hindus want it (unitary gov’t) because in that case they would have a perennial majority of three to one and thus one society with its majority would rule the other society and nation namely Muslims who would be a minority always."

In my opinion these speeches were primarily meant to be ‘Opinion makers’. It is also well known that the Quaid was for Hindu Muslim unity until the mid-1930’s and in reality desired a loose federation rather than complete separation; hence the Muslim League accepted the Cabinet Mission Plan.

We would never know whether the Quaid would have agreed to Gandhiji’s proposal presented at the 11th hour in 1947 that Mohammed Ali Jinnah be the first Prime Minister of United India and name his Cabinet, but arguably the real architect of the partition is Pundit Nehru who vehemently opposed this suggestion.

The reader would now be justified in asking, do I think the Quaid was a secularist?

In Pakistan, people define somebody who does not believe in Islam or any other religion, as secular. In that sense, our Quaid was not secular but a Muslim albeit not a pious Muslim. However, in the accepted definition of secular who believes “The State should have no say in the matter of religion” our Quaid was a secularist.

I honestly believe that intention of the Muslim League was to create a liberal & progressive Pakistan as clearly declared by the Quaid in his August 11, 1947 speech to the Pakistan Constituent Assembly. IMHO the Objectives Resolutions adopted by the Constituent Assembly on March 12, 1949, 6 months after the Quaid passed away would not have gone through if the Quaid were still alive.

One thing however certain, neither the Quaid nor the founding fathers intended to form an Islamic state on the lines of Saudi Arabia / Iran or the Islamic regimes of ISIS / Taliban Afghanistan. Religious leaders had realized this fact and that is why they opposed the creation of Pakistan.
 
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In Pakistan, people define somebody who does not believe in Islam or any other religion, as secular. In that sense, our Quaid was not secular but a Muslim albeit not a pious Muslim. However, in the accepted definition of secular who believes “The State should have no say in the matter of religion” our Quaid was a secularist.

You, sir, have hit the nail right on the head.
 
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