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Scepticism about the ‘war’

Cheetah786

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Even as the Pakistan army claims progress against the militants in the north-western areas of the country, there are reports that people – while being firmly against the Taliban and their ilk – are sceptical of the government’s and the army’s commitment to the long-term battle. That is, of course, to eradicate issues of extremism and militancy for good, invest in the development of the areas first rampaged by the likes of Fazlullah and Mangal Bagh and then ravaged by the military operation against them, and perhaps most importantly, revisit the country’s notion of the strategic depth of Afghanistan, which has proved so very disastrous.

One may well ask why this scepticism exists. The people of Pakistan have always stood firmly behind the army in times of turbulence. Historically, as is evident in our literature, song and academic curricula, we glorify fighting for the sake of the country’s territorial integrity, refer to fallen soldiers as ‘martyrs’, and believe implicitly in the validity of the ideological concept of the nation. The last time Pakistan was involved in a major conflict – 1971 – there was little indication of any such scepticism. This, despite the fact that the ‘war’ was being fought against what was then a part of the country — a fully-paid up member of the idea of Pakistan. Then, the spin doctors managed to convince us that the war was valid and being won – right up to the day the country woke up to headlines that announced the secession of East Pakistan. Now, even as the Taliban and their band are reportedly being driven back, there is general discontent and quiet murmurings about the will, both political and military, to win the battle. And the murmurs have to be quiet, at least for the moment: in the context of this country, doubting the commitment of the army amounts to a form of blasphemy – especially at a point when soldiers are dying.

So what has changed?

For one thing, the amount and nature of information available to the citizenry. Back then, there were only newspapers (for the literate minority) and not very many of those; there was the radio and PTV, but those were in the control of the state. There were no on-the-spot, ‘live from the refugee camp’ reports. So people learned mainly what the state wanted them to learn. Now, television channels aplenty are accessible regardless of literacy rates, most of them independently owned and operated. And there’s also the internet from where one can access a host of information and commentary from local and international sources. True, the news about the army’s successes in X division or Y agency comes mainly from the ISPR. But concurrently, thanks to the access to information, people are learning to connect the dots. And when one starts to extrapolate from the gaps in what the government and the army are telling us, one does indeed find grounds for scepticism.

First, there’s the issue of the IDPs. It had become clear for quite some time that the Swat issue was not going to be solved by cutting deals, and that a military operation was going to become inevitable. That would, quite clearly, lead at the very least to thousands of civilians being forced to flee their areas, if not millions as proved to be the case. It is abundantly evident to the whole country that no effective contingency plan was formulated for either the safe passage of non-combatants from the conflict zones, or for their accommodation while the battles raged, or for their rehabilitation if and when their villages and towns are considered safe. The suffering of these people is in close-up on our television screens; many people are asking themselves what they’d be feeling in the same situation, had they been driven out of their homes and then abandoned.

Then, there’s the failure to either arrest or take out any of the TTP’s top commanders, when just a few weeks ago the government was in the process of negotiating with them. These men were giving interviews on television, gathering for lunch at government-run venues. Now that they are the enemy, why can’t we find them? If the state and its institutions, including the army, do not know where they are, that represents a colossal failure of intelligence and therefore implies incompetence of the intelligence networks. And if their whereabouts are known, the fact that they are still free holds very disturbing implications.

A similarly worrying implication is inherent in the fact that while the head-money on some of the militants’ leaders has recently been increased, such as for Muslim Khan, others are apparently exempt. The glaring example in this regard is Baitullah Mehsud, for whom not even head-money has been announced although he is blamed for a string of attacks in Pakistan – including the assassination of Benazir Bhutto.

The lack of success so far in taking out key Taliban targets also raises the disturbing possibility that the agencies – that were in no small part responsible for this mess in the first place – continue to view at least some of the militants as potential strategic partners. There has been no evidence that a shift has taken place in either the notion of ‘strategic depth’, or the concept of ‘good’ (read ‘our’) and ‘bad’ Taliban.

Then, there are other bits and bobs of news that are perhaps not directly connected to the battle against the Taliban, but certainly bode ill for the fight against extremism in general. Abdul Aziz of Lal Masjid notoriety and Hafiz Saeed of the Jamaatud-Dawa (the reincarnated form of the banned Lashkar-i-Taiba) were recently declared free by courts that cited the lack of evidence. Certainly, one would wish no court to declare the guilt of anyone without citing proper evidence – the due processes of the law must be followed. But the question is: why was the prosecution’s evidence so deficient? Why were the cases not properly built so that justice could be served to these men, whose links with extremist organisations are virtually undisputable? It seems incredible that such men walk free in a country where others are kept incarcerated for years on the flimsiest of excuses – as long as the government wants it so.

And in a similar manner, it is also evident that no serious attempts have been made to dismantle the jihadi/militant infrastructure in areas outside the NWFP and Fata, notably southern Punjab, from where groups such as the Jaish-i-Mohammadi reportedly continue to operate with impunity.

These are just some of the factors that lead a politically aware person to question the long-term success of the ‘war’ currently under way. And contrary to popular belief, the people of this country are, thanks to the twists of history, very politically aware indeed. It is time for the top brass of the state and the army to realise that they are accountable to the public – and that the public will not be taken in by spin forever.

DAWN.COM | Pakistan | Scepticism about the ?war?

I have the same questions cause if we cant go get some rag tag mullah out of mountains with all the money we spend on our army we have no chance in hell against professional indian army.
 
I think it's about the time you understand that Taliban is definately not a rag tag millitia.They have advanced weapons.Also let's not forget that The terrain is completely different from INdo-PAK Border Terrain (Deserts) where as there are mountains etc..And this is not a war but a COIN Operation.Just don't come to your stupid conclusions.
 
Absolutely agree. This is a different wars.

For example - Chechnya an Georgia. Big problems with terrorists and at the same time the regular (US-feed) Georgian army was devastated in a few days.
 
duplicate thread ,Mr Cheetah please look carefully before posting new thread.
Pakistan army is much stronger then indian army in all aspects, these days numbers are not vey much important ,indian army need atleast ten years to acquire the latest technology and weapons and discard Russian weapons .

Our nuke technology and missile technology is also much superior.

US with latest technology could not control the insurgency ,you have not seen how PA defeated talaban in few days.We hoped they will also flush talaban from FATA with in one month.

Yes our civil defence is weak ,we need to modernise our police now .
 
Pakistan army is much stronger then indian army in all aspects...

Sorry. But why was it written in the subject purely on internal affairs of Pakistan? Now come the indians and will defend their army.

There will be clash again as many times in past... :taz::chilli:
 
duplicate thread ,Mr Cheetah please look carefully before posting new thread.
Pakistan army is much stronger then indian army in all aspects, these days numbers are not vey much important ,indian army need atleast ten years to acquire the latest technology and weapons and discard Russian weapons .

Our nuke technology and missile technology is also much superior.

US with latest technology could not control the insurgency ,you have not seen how PA defeated talaban in few days.We hoped they will also flush talaban from FATA with in one month.

Yes our civil defence is weak ,we need to modernise our police now .

If people are to use the thing called brain they will understand i was pointing out a difference between RAG tag TAliabns and Indian armed forces don't tell me they are both on a same grade.

Americans can beat talibans in a day by leveling every village that supports talibans but to minimize civilians death they have chosen a different path that does not means they cant beat talibans so do not confuse there humanity as there weekness.
 
I think it's about the time you understand that Taliban is definately not a rag tag millitia.They have advanced weapons.Also let's not forget that The terrain is completely different from INdo-PAK Border Terrain (Deserts) where as there are mountains etc..And this is not a war but a COIN Operation.Just don't come to your stupid conclusions.


Talibans and there Parents hight tech weaponry against westren tech nology.


OH Mr. patriot i am not a member of your family i do not carry the same last name as U but i am glade to no your last name is stupid an appropriate one two if i say so my self .
But since you traveled to school in little yellow bus i have decide that i will just ignore your posts from now on as you are not capable of carrying on discussion in a civilized manner and its understanable with a last name stupid expecting any thing from u will be stiupid.
 
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Talibans and there Parents hight tech weaponry against westren tech nology.

FR3QezGPPH8[/media] - German Technology VS Arab Technology

OH Mr. patriot i am not a member of your family i do not carry the same last name as U but i am glade to no your last name is stupid an appropriate one two if i say so my self .
But since you traveled to school in little yellow bus i have decide that i will just ignore your posts from now on as you are not capable of carrying on discussion in a civilized manner and its understanable with a last name stupid expecting any thing from u will be stiupid.
Not sure what are you trying to say here but just would like say thought i meant no disrespect to you.Was just saying that comparing Pakistan Army performance in a COIN Operation with a conventional war is pretty stupid conclusion.
 
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Absolutely agree. This is a different wars.

For example - Chechnya an Georgia. Big problems with terrorists and at the same time the regular (US-feed) Georgian army was devastated in a few days.

Last i checked Russian armed forces wone in chechnya and Georgia as the Kremlin was serious about getting the job done article i posted points towards the fact that even people in fata areas do not belive that will exists in Islamabad.
 
Not sure what are you trying to say here but just would like say thought i meant no disrespect to you.Was just saying that comparing Pakistan Army performance in a COIN Operation with a conventional war is pretty stupid conclusion.

Let me make it clear to u Links between ISI Army and talibans arent exactly a best kept secret.
What I am saying it a very simple that there are some in Army and ISI that arent intrested in pakistan and keep supplying Talibans with all they need.
Result is pakistani army jawans are being killed u calling your self patriot should get that very clearly and i am not the only one saying that even people of FATA have the same conclusion.
One week some generals are having a meal with most wanted man in pakistan second week they cant find him really how is that possible. why do we have ISI as instead of protecting pakistan they continue to protect there dogs who are hell bend to destroy pakistan.

I hope this clears my position
 
Let me make it clear to u Links between ISI Army and talibans arent exactly a best kept secret.
What I am saying it a very simple that there are some in Army and ISI that arent intrested in pakistan and keep supplying Talibans with all they need.
Result is pakistani army jawans are being killed u calling your self patriot should get that very clearly and i am not the only one saying that even people of FATA have the same conclusion.
One week some generals are having a meal with most wanted man in pakistan second week they cant find him really how is that possible. why do we have ISI as instead of protecting pakistan they continue to protect there dogs who are hell bend to destroy pakistan.

I hope this clears my position
Understood but man honestly it is hard to believe.ISI is after all run by Army.I would not be surprised though if bigoted Generals like Hamid Gul still have some bigots in ISI but i think Army Generals are quite clear on this issue ie Eliminate the Talibans.Also no body is permanent agent in ISI everybody has a 3 year deputation period in ISI then they are sent back to Army according to Blain2.
 
revisit the country’s notion of the strategic depth of Afghanistan, which has proved so very disastrous.

Has nobody told author that the indian have opened "consulates" all along the pak border and are helping the baluchi-tribal terrorists attack pakistan?
Makes total sense.....taliban running Afghanistan and we have no problems on our border but this guy thinks it "proved so very disastrous"and instead wants the US-India running things in Afghanistan as they are now and we will be better off:crazy:


A similarly worrying implication is inherent in the fact that while the head-money on some of the militants’ leaders has recently been increased, such as for Muslim Khan, others are apparently exempt. The glaring example in this regard is Baitullah Mehsud, for whom not even head-money has been announced although he is blamed for a string of attacks in Pakistan – including the assassination of Benazir Bhutto.

A reward of five million rupees (about 62,500 U.S. dollars) for information about Maulana Fazlullah, chief of Taliban’s Swat chapter, has been announced.

It is offering four million rupees (about 50,000 U.S. dollars) each for information about Taliban spokesman Muslim Khan and two deputy chiefs of the group, Shah Duran and Ibn-e-Amin.
pakistan four million rupees reward for baitullah - Google Search

There has been no evidence that a shift has taken place in either the notion of ‘strategic depth’, or the concept of ‘good’ (read ‘our’) and ‘bad’ Taliban.

Theres the real afghan taliban under mullah omar and then theres a bunch of idiots in the mountain being backed by india and co..........we all understand the difference but this author seems not to have.
No matter how many times you call them taliban people know theres two distinct groups one that will bring us peace on our border in the long run and the other that is nothing but a proxy.

Then, there are other bits and bobs of news that are perhaps not directly connected to the battle against the Taliban, but certainly bode ill for the fight against extremism in general. Abdul Aziz of Lal Masjid notoriety and Hafiz Saeed of the Jamaatud-Dawa (the reincarnated form of the banned Lashkar-i-Taiba) were recently declared free by courts that cited the lack of evidence. Certainly, one would wish no court to declare the guilt of anyone without citing proper evidence – the due processes of the law must be followed. But the question is: why was the prosecution’s evidence so deficient? Why were the cases not properly built so that justice could be served to these men, whose links with extremist organisations are virtually undisputable? It seems incredible that such men walk free in a country where others are kept incarcerated for years on the flimsiest of excuses – as long as the government wants it so.

"due processes of the law must be followed" which it was so why bring the issue up?
Hafiz Saeed has followed the pak govt line from day one and should honoured.......has ever called upon his memeber to attack the pak army.

And in a similar manner, it is also evident that no serious attempts have been made to dismantle the jihadi/militant infrastructure in areas outside the NWFP and Fata, notably southern Punjab, from where groups such as the Jaish-i-Mohammadi reportedly continue to operate with impunity.

So give the police more money.
 
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If people are to use the thing called brain they will understand i was pointing out a difference between RAG tag TAliabns and Indian armed forces don't tell me they are both on a same grade.

Americans can beat talibans in a day by leveling every village that supports talibans but to minimize civilians death they have chosen a different path that does not means they cant beat talibans so do not confuse there humanity as there weekness.

@cheetah,

You need to understand difference between conventional war and gurilla war.
Better read little history why Russia failed in Afghanistan , US and NATO also facing similar problems, that is reason keep changing strategy to control insurgency.
PA is getting sucess in SWAT because now local tribes are helping them.
 
Last i checked Russian armed forces wone in chechnya and Georgia as the Kremlin was serious about getting the job done.

Because in Chechnya was order like: no matter the cost.

I war: 8,000 KIA
II war: 6,000 KIA
+ After ~1500 KIA

AND this whithout local anti-terrorist militia, where casualties are nearly more then 5,000 KIA... But i think there is NO other way - or you fight real hard, or you never win. What americans doing in Iraq and Afgan - this is kind of joking-base-sitting-air-bombing. This how they were beaten in Vietnam.

Hard rebels like talibs never will be defeated like this. Only if pakistani army engage them in full scale close ground fighting. Wiping all of them and their bases.
 
Souriceau


Basic tenet on all insurgency: When the state attacks, the insurgents refuses battle, when the state regresses, the insurgents attack. The insurgent can and will open multiple fronts, not just military but more importantly, political and information operations.

Additionally, terrain is a more prominent feature as is the political will and capacity of the state to hold and BUILD.

Overall The Fauj has it about right -
 

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