Scam-wary Army calls off Israeli missile deal

[sancho]

Not at all.... MoD must push DPSUs to collaborate with DRDO to come out with a comparable product.

No problem with that, but that doesn't mean we have to compromise on Indias security! We can't wait for Indian industry, nor can we take indigenous products with less capability and quality to account, only because they might be made in India.
We are not talking about a car, a bike or a TV, but techs and weapons that are made for a single aim, DEFENDING INDIA and too many of us are forgetting!

I am dead against importing anything if a comparable system ( even with slightly less range ) is available in few years.

Which is a claim, the same that we heared from ADA and DRDO about LCA, Kaveri engine or MMR and in the meantime you are ready to defend India will less capable arms?
What was the first thing everybody complained about after 26/11? Why our police men still have to run around with decades old rifles, while the terrorists had modern machine guns. Defending a country means, being prepared for the worst case and not, oh lets wait and see what happens, then we will come up with a solution. So complaining after an attack that we had too less ATGMs, howitzers, MBTs, because we waited for our industry can't be the right solution.

We need both, pushing our industy to do the best according to their capabilities, but whenever they can't provide something, we ideally go for a co-development / JV or as the last option a foreign procurement. Because that keeps our defence up to date, while our industry get a fair chance to improve too!

 

[Bang Galore]

No we don't! If the aim is a licence production deal under ToT and the reply to the RFP shows that they will not provide the necessary techs, they should be disqualified directly and not considered to the trials.
If we want a limited procurement, we can evaluate them seperately under different requirements, but that's another issue.
When we know that they don't fit to our RFP requirements, evaluating and negotiating is just a waste of time. The only advantage we have is, the have a bargaining chip during negotiations with the Israelis. However, it would have been much better to get the Russians into the competition as a second vendor, with the needed ToT than keeping the US. We could have reduced the price of the Israeli system and let them win, while we still could have made a follow order of the Konkurs ATGMs, after this competition. That would have saved a lot of time and money, but we still would have got what we wanted.

Similarly, if the F18SH and the F16IN was not suitable to the RFP requirement on ToT, they should have not been passed to the trials too, as simple as that!

Not so simple. In the absence of the American entry, what do we do? We really have nothing to compare if the Russians fail. If we lower standards & allow the Russian entry in, then the Israelis will be booted out on price. We will end where we began. This is simply not a very easy decision to make.

 

[jha]

Which is a claim, the same that we heared from ADA and DRDO about LCA, Kaveri engine or MMR and in the meantime you are ready to defend India will less capable arms?

I would not compare ATGM with LCA. IMO Bofors would be more apt . And we can see the ever lethargic OFB has woken up from slumber to deliver an upgraded Gun. Just two years back, the situation was even more hopeless than the current ATGM. We currently are producing Konkurs and Milans, that means our companies have to upgrade them. DRDO can certainly help in that since they have some expertise with Nag and the new ant-tank missile they tasted.

So complaining after an attack that we had too less ATGMs, howitzers, MBTs, because we waited for our industry can't be the right solution.

Thats exactly my point. If we have to mass rpoduce something, it must be a home grown solution. Licensed manufacturing of each and every thing will be cost prohibitive. We must develop NAGs, ARJUNs and Desi-Bofors because there always will be a SPIKE/Javelin , Merkava/T-90 , M-71s available to buy from..

 

[A1Kaid]

This is excellent news, US probably told Israel to call off the deal.

 

[arp2041]

This is excellent news, US probably told Israel to call off the deal.

Looks like Jr. TT sitting in the US is having English Comprehension problems........

This deal was CALLED OFF by the Army b'coz it resulted in a Single Vendor Situation which is not allowed according to the MOD's DPP.

 

[A1Kaid]

Looks like Jr. TT sitting in the US is having English Comprehension problems........

This deal was CALLED OFF by the Army b'coz it resulted in a Single Vendor Situation which is not allowed according to the MOD's DPP.

Even if your army wanted to procure, US would put pressure on Israel to stop the deal, US doesn't want you having third generation ATGM hence why the Javelin deal didn't go through nor will the spike. India isn't privileged to have such systems.

Either way the result is the same, good news of the day. Why don't you pathetic Indians try and build your own ATGMs you have Nag a shoddy system with questionable accuracy for moving targets. Loser Indians try and build something yourself you are one of the largest weapons importer because you lack the technical capability to produce a multitude of weapons systems.

 

[indian_foxhound]

Looks like Jr. TT sitting in the US is having English Comprehension problems........

This deal was CALLED OFF by the Army b'coz it resulted in a Single Vendor Situation which is not allowed according to the MOD's DPP.

Bro what i believe is that there is on scam in this tender but it was called of because of single vendor.

 

[A1Kaid]

They really do hand out the "JR TT" title out to anyone don't they these days?


Can't even be bothered to read an article before posting on the thread.

Reality is you're jealous, I'm a far higher caliber in post quality and overall knowledge than you. I've seen your post as "Elite Member" and half of them are garbage.

 

[indian_foxhound]

Even if your army wanted to procure, US would put pressure on Israel to stop the deal, US doesn't want you having third generation ATGM hence why the Javelin deal didn't go through nor will the spike. India isn't privileged to have such systems.

Either way the result is the same, good news of the day. Why don't you pathetic Indians try and build your own ATGMs you have Nag a shoddy system with questionable accuracy for moving targets. Loser Indians try and build something yourself you are one of the largest weapons importer because you lack the technical capability to provide advance.

Are you high or dont you think you are speaking too much.? Read the arti 1st kid. See what your country making or doing saint job. Atleast we have good number of homemade product. You photoshop kids

 

[sancho]

Not so simple. In the absence of the American entry, what do we do? We really have nothing to compare if the Russians fail. If we lower standards & allow the Russian entry in, then the Israelis will be booted out on price. We will end where we began. This is simply not a very easy decision to make.

Why so? We did the same in the tanker competition, where an clearly less capable, but cheaper IL 78 was pitted against the A330MRTT right? On technical grounds we might have selected the SPIKE anyway, but with the Konkurs in the competition, we could have reduced the pirce of the SPICE too. So it have served both purposes.
And it's not about the decision at the end, but about how to create such competitions from the start, with the highest rate of success.
Again look at the tanker competition. How on earth could IAF do a whole competition, without considering the lifecycle costs? This is a crucial requirement and should have been important even in the RFP, but they didn't which resulted into a rejection of FM and the competition needed to be re-issued. These simply are avoidable problem, caused by poor planning of the forces and that's definitely one reason why such procurements takes so long in India.

I would not compare ATGM with LCA. IMO Bofors would be more apt . And we can see the ever lethargic OFB has woken up from slumber to deliver an upgraded Gun.

But Jha, please look at the whole picture! When did they woke up and what happened in between? They took a decade to come up with something, that is a slightly modernised version of the howitzer we produced under licence, while in the mean time, IA was badly equipped, so is that really what you want to see in future as well?
The way TATA is approaching this today is way better, they formed a JV with a foreign manufacturer, instead of wasting years for the development of an own system. If they can provide a good balance of capability and costs, they might win, but at the end of the day, that will be a a foreign howitzer, produced in India, with some Indian modifications. So would you reject that as well?

If we have to mass rpoduce something, it must be a home grown solution

Again, ONLY if it fulfulls the requirements! Being indigenous is not a sign of capability or quality, that has to be proven on it's own and in comparision with other counterparts, not only by promises and claims!
I would love to see a mass produced LCA, but we followed the way you suggested and hoped of developing nearly all parts in India, although realistically we wasn't able to do it.
Today we have the reality check and must acknowledge, that we couldn't hold the promises and many IAF pilots had to pay the price with their life, because they had to fly in old and unreliable fighters.
Similarly, just hoping and beliving on promises of the industry is simply not enough and will costs life's if a war comes!

 

[A1Kaid]

Are you high or dont you think you are speaking too much.? Read the arti 1st kid. See what your country making or doing saint job. Atleast we have good number of homemade product. You photoshop kids

I read the article.

However, Army chief General Bikram Singh is believed to have told the DAC that the Army was cancelling the deal and opting for a fresh process. The Army chief's move has surprised many, because of the aggressive way Army headquarters had been pushing the deal until then.

The deal is meant to equip 356 infantry battalions of the Army with the latest ATGMs. The Indian Army had been in advance stages of negotiations with Rafael Advanced Defence Systems of Israel for purchase of Spike ATGMs.


Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...s-off-israeli-missile-deal.html#ixzz2QNJiz0El

I understand your army cancelled the deal, what I'm saying I am of the opinion even if they wanted to pursue the deal US would message Israel to not sell Spike ATGM to a country like India. US has to keep Pakistan happy, more so than India. You were never going to get Spike just like you were never going to get Javelin. Haven't you learned by now?

 

[arp2041]

Even if your army wanted to procure, US would put pressure on Israel to stop the deal, US doesn't want you having third generation ATGM hence why the Javelin deal didn't go through nor will the spike. India isn't privileged to have such systems.

So, now from "PROBABLY US stopped" u are down to "EVEN IF"??

did the US official or the Israeli official said that to you??

Israel has given India much better tech than a third gen. ATGMs - AWACS, Green Pine Radars, UAVs, etc. so why will it shy away from giving these missiles.

Either way the result is the same, good news of the day. Why don't you pathetic Indians try and build your own ATGMs you have Nag a shoddy system with questionable accuracy for moving targets. Loser Indians try and build something yourself you are one of the largest weapons importer because you lack the technical capability to provide advance.

You are too CIVIL to be a Jr.TT, don't you think??

BTW, we import or we export or we make weapons at home - It's our MONEY, why is it your problem??

 

[sancho]

Looks like Jr. TT sitting in the US is having English Comprehension problems........

This deal was CALLED OFF by the Army b'coz it resulted in a Single Vendor Situation which is not allowed according to the MOD's DPP.

You are right, but you don't need to get personal directly.

US would put pressure on Israel to stop the deal

Which is a claim from you and not based on any fact! As arp2041 correctly said, the article is about India calling of the competition, because the US would be out according to our requirements, which shows that US pressure can't be a reason, especially not on Israel.

 

[A1Kaid]

You are right, but you don't need to get personal directly.




Which is a claim from you and not based on any fact! As arp2041 correctly said, the article is about India calling of the competition, because the US would be out according to our requirements, which shows that US pressure can't be a reason, especially not on Israel.

Whatever your opinion is I'm glad the deal is cancelled.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I read the article.




I understand your army cancelled the deal, what I'm saying I am of the opinion even if they wanted to pursue the deal US would message Israel to not sell Spike ATGM to a country like India. US has to keep Pakistan happy, more so than India. You were never going to get Spike just like you were never going to get Javelin. Haven't you learned by now?

Calling my posts "garbage" and then you go and post this?? What is a country "like India" exactly?


You have ZERO proof of your LIES. If the IA hadn't scrapped this round of tenders they would be getting the SPIKE.


Pakistan doesn't even come into the equation.