Saudi Arabia's Treasure

[Falcon29]

Wow, you're an idiot. You're most likely a Sunni Egyptian who follows one of 4 madhabs, all 4 support the apostate law in that same sense.

Almost your whole religion relies on Hadith, dumbo, and all your schools of thought refer to it, almost all of your Sharia came from Hadith, almost all of the Sunnah and Seerah of the Prophet came from Hadith. All your prophecies are from Hadith, all the major madhabs also declare you a non-Muslim if you reject Hadith.

Clearly you're an idiot that will just do mental gymnastics because you are 100% wrong and lose all your arguments. You don't know nothing about your religion, and might as well shut up at this point.

 

[EgyptianAmerican]

Wow, you're an idiot. You're most likely a Sunni Egyptian who follows one of 4 madhabs, all 4 support the apostate law in that same sense.

Almost your whole religion relies on Hadith, dumbo, and all your schools of thought refer to it, almost all of your Sharia came from Hadith, almost all of the Sunnah and Seerah of the Prophet came from Hadith. All your prophecies are from Hadith, all the major madhabs also declare you a non-Muslim if you reject Hadith.

Clearly you're an idiot that will just do mental gymnastics because you are 100% wrong and lose all your arguments. You don't know nothing about your religion, and might as well shut up at this point.

Did I reject all Hadiths?, Hadiths are saying and should be Critiqued and Criticized, A lot are fake or are unproven, It's a bunch of Sayings and teachings of the last prophet passed down, as you can imagine that can be abused. Clearly it is YOU who is the idiot, because so far you have entirely been Wrong. YOU know nothing about this Religion as I have already proven, you Islamaphobe.

You aren't even a Muslim because you reject the Quran. How can you even call yourself are a Muslim?

I am going to repeat this again, Read it and weep.

You cannot guide those you would like to but God guides those He wills. He has best knowledge of the guided.” (Holy Quran/28: 56)

How do these verses not support Religious freedom?

“God does not forbid you from being good to those who have not fought you in the religion or driven you from your homes, or from being just towards them. God loves those who are just.” (Surat al-Mumtahana, 8)

“We have appointed a law and a practice for every one of you. Had God willed, He would have made you a single community, but He wanted to test you regarding what has come to you. So compete with each other in doing good. Every one of you will return to God and He will inform you regarding the things about which you differed.” (Surat al-Ma’ida, 48)


If you follow these Verses then they also Apply with Apostates.

But those who reject Faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of Faith,- never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray.

— Quran 3:90

Where does it say execute them?


'How shall God guide those who reject Faith after they accepted it and bore witness that the apostle was true and that clear signs had come unto them? But God guides not a people unjust. Of such the reward is that on them (rests) the curse of the God, of His Angels, and of all mankind;--In that will they dwell; nor will their penalty be lightened, nor respite be their lot;--except for those that repent (even) after that, make amends; For verily God is oft-forgiving, most merciful'. [3:86-89]"

"It is obvious from these verses that no punishment is to be inflicted by one man or another for apostasy. By no stretch of the imagination can the phrase, "curse of Allah," be interpreted to be a license to murder anyone who he considers to be an apostate. If any such commandment was prescribed it would have been clearly defined as all other punishments are in the Holy Qur'an."

Tariq Ramadan states that given "the way the Prophet behaved with the people who left Islam (like Hishâm and 'Ayyash) or who converted to Christianity (such as Ubaydallah ibn Jahsh), it should be stated that one who changes her/his religion should not be killed". He further states that "there can be no compulsion or coercion in matters of faith not only because it is explicitly forbidden in the Qur'an but also because free conscious and choice and willing submission are foundational to the first pillar (declaration of faith) and essential to the very definition of Islam. Therefore, someone leaving Islam or converting to another religion must be free to do so and her/his choice must be respected."[111]


"...both of them contradict the Quran and other instances in which the Prophet did not compel anyone to embrace Islam, nor punish them if they recanted."

"In one incident, the Prophet pardoned Abdullah bin Sa'd, after he renounced Islam. Abdullah bin Sa'd was one of the people chosen by the Prophet as a scribe, to write down Qur'anic text as it was revealed to the Prophet. After spending some time with the Muslims in Madina, he recanted and returned to the religion of the Quraish. When he was brought before the Prophet, Osman bin Affan pleaded on his behalf, and the Prophet subsequently pardoned Abdullah bin Sa'd (Ibn Hisham).

"The problem with the argument for punishment for apostasy is that it cannot be applied in any Islamic state without giving rise to the potential for abuse by the state itself. Erroneously equating moral with political power in the determination of law has led to the political repression that we see in Islamic countries today. We must separate the right of God from that of man in defining freedom of religion as a legal right. The right of God refers only to the moral obligations of Muslims towards God, and is adjudicated by God. The state cannot act as a coercive moral authority, in effect representing God's Will on earth, because it does not have the right to do so. In the context of freedom of religion, the state's responsibility is to uphold and protect it as the right of all humans, as granted by God, without exercising moral judgment on the content and/or manner of exercising those religious beliefs." 4,5


Source: https://defence.pk/threads/saudi-arabias-treasure.458414/page-5#ixzz4OdJfxgl4



"If we turn to the Qur`an and authentic ahadith after freeing ourselves from the extraneous influences of the type I have mentioned above, the situation becomes crystal clear: there is no legal punishment for apostasy in Islam, whether death or any other. The Qur`an and authentic ahadith teach us to treat apostates like other kuffar, whose treatment varies from kindness to killing depending on the circumstances and on the degree of hostility they show towards Islam and Muslims. I will insha allah present evidence for this view in two parts. In this first part, I will insha allah show that the death penalty or any other legal punishment for apostasy is contrary to the Qur`an. And in the second part I examine the ahadith about apostasy and show with God’s permission that those ahadith that prescribe the death penalty do not come from the mouth of our and God’s beloved Prophet (may God bless and honor him evermore)."
- http://www.islamicperspectives.com/apostasy1.htm

WHAT IS APOSTASY?



Before discussing the question of punishment of apostasy, it is well to define what apostasy is.



A person commits apostasy (irtidad) or becomes an apostate (murtadd) if he describes himself a Muslim and then at a later time takes one of the following actions in a public way:



1) Converts to another religion, e.g. becomes a Christian or Buddhist or Baha`i etc.

2) Rejects a part of the Qur`an after recognizing it to be a part of the Qur`an. For example, all those “Muslims” who opposed the Shari‘ah-based arbitration in family and business disputes in Ontario[1] have become apostates if they knew well that a great part of the Shari‘ah that they opposed is based on the Qur`an. May Allah guide them back to Islam.


3) In some cases when the whole ummah agrees that a certain interpretation of some Qur`anic verses or ahadith is unacceptable, then the person who holds such an interpretation may become an apostate by a decision of the ummah. For example, Ahmadis insist on being called Muslims and they indeed profess and practice much of Islam like most Sunni Muslims. But they believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadiyan in the British colonial India was a prophet and in order to prepare room for this belief they interpret khatm nubuwwah in a way different from the rest of the ummah.. The ummah has rejected their interpretation of khatm nubuwwah and Mirza’s claims for which this interpretation is devised. The ummah has also declared this group as non-Muslims and banned their entry into Makkah. Finally, the falsehood of Mirza’s claims has been proved by history[2]. Consequently, all converts from Islam to Ahmadism are apostates.



Normally, however, having an interpretation of a part of the Qur`an or Hadith different from the one held by other Muslims does not result in apostasy. For example, if the people who rejected Shari‘ah-based arbitration in Ontario would have said that the way rules of Shari‘ah are interpreted and applied is not faithful to the teachings of God and his Messenger and argued for more discussion about correcting the interpretation and the application before adopting Shari‘ah-based arbitration, they would not have committed apostasy. But they opposed Shari‘ah as such and for this reason they should be considered apostates.



An apostate is different from a hypocrite (munafiq). A hypocrite is a person who is outwardly willing to say/do what a Muslim says/does but in his heart has decided not to believe in Islam. An apostate, in contrast, is someone who openly and knowingly does or says something that makes him a non-Muslim after he had called himself a Muslim.



It also needs to be pointed out that we should distinguish apostasy from a state of kufr that many Muslims may privately pass through during the process of their growth towards the state of iman. In most Muslim families we have some members who express disbelief about the existence of God or about divine revelations or about the hereafter. Muslims have wisely and correctly tolerated such disbelief because they recognize that the way to iman is not always smooth and may pass through doubts and confusion (cf. Qur`an 6:76-79, 93:7). However, if a Muslim expresses his disbelief in the form of a declared position and insists on its truth publicly, then he will be considered an apostate.


THE ABSENCE FROM THE QUR`AN OF ANY PENALTY FOR APOSTASY


It is a significant fact that the Book of God does not prescribe any punishment for apostasy. Many Muslims would immediately say, The Qur`an does not tell us everything. We need to go to the Hadith to find guidance on matters not touched by the Qur`an. But while this is true of matters of detail, this is not true of fundamental issues. God knew that while the Qur`an would be preserved faithfully, the authenticity of ahadith will remain subject to doubts in most cases. Therefore, he would make sure that all the basic teachings would be included in the Qur`an while leaving some details to ahadith so that the size of the Qur`anic text remains manageable for memorization. Looked in this way the absence in the Qur`an of any punishment for apostasy becomes very significant.


The punishment for apostasy is not a detail that we can expect God to leave for ahadith, especially if that punishment is death, since taking the life of a person, if done without a just cause, is regarded by the Qur`an as tantamount to killing all human beings (5:32). Even lesser penalties for theft (cutting of hands, 5:38), illicit sexual intercourse (100 lashes, 24:2), and unsubstantiated accusation of adultery (80 lashes, 24.4) were not considered by God as matters of details to be left to the ahadith. Therefore there is no reason why God would consider the more serious penalty of death for a more serious sin of apostasy as a matter of detail to be left to ahadith.


It is also significant that the Qur`an refers to apostasy several times (2:217, 3:86-90, 4:137, 9:66, 9:74, 16:106-109, 4:88-91, 47:25-27) and yet does not prescribe any punishment for it. Had the Qur`an not mentioned apostasy at all, we could have perhaps argued that there was no occasion for the Qur`anic revelation to deal with this subject and it was therefore left for the Holy Prophet to deal with. It may also be noted that almost all the verses that refer to apostasy are found in surahs said to be belonging to the Madinan period when the Islamic state had been established and penalties for crimes could be prescribed and applied. Only 16:106-109 appears in a surah identified as Makkan.


It is thus a natural conclusion to draw that the absence of any legal penalty for apostasy in the Qur`an means that God never intended any such penalty to become part of Islamic Shari‘ah.


THE DEATH PENALTY FOR APOSTASY CONFLICTS WITH THE QUR`AN

The evidence against any legally prescribed penalty for apostasy in Islam does not rest only on the fact that the Qur`an does not prescribe any such penalty while referring to the subject of apostasy many times. We can go further and state that:


a) There is no mandatory death penalty in the Qur`an for any crime.

b) The death penalty for apostasy in fact conflicts with the Qur`an.

The truth of the above statements can be seen by examining the verses: 5:32-33, 45, 2:178 and 4:88-91.

Qur`an 5:32-33, 45, 2:178



In 5:32, after relating the story of the murder of Habil by his brother Qabil, God says:



On that account We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole humanity: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the whole humanity. Then although there came to them Our Messengers with clear (guidance), yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. (5:32)

In the context of an emphasis on preserving the life of each and every individual the above verse mentions only two crimes for which a person can be killed:



1) Murdering another human being;

2) Spreading mischief (fasad) in the land.



Nowhere else the Qur`an mentions any other crime for which the death penalty is considered. There are, of course, verses that mention killing during a war in the way of God. But that is different from killing as a penalty for a crime. Moreover, in the Qur`anic understanding the objective of even killing in a war is to stop or punish crimes similar to the two mentioned in the above verse -- violence and mischief -- when committed in an organized way by a tribe or nation ((2:191-193, 2:217, 4:88-91 etc)).



Hence the above-mentioned two crimes exhaust all possible cases for which the Qur`an considers the death penalty[3]. And in both of these cases, the death penalty is not mandatory in the Qur`an.



In case of spreading mischief in the land, the Qur`an says in the next verse:



The recompense for those who wage war against God and his Messenger[4], and strive with might and main for mischief through the land[5] is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and for them in the hereafter is a severe punishment. (5:33)

There is no prescribed mandatory death penalty here. Even when the person wages war against God and his Messenger along with striving in the land for mischief, death is considered only one of several options, starting from exile. If such is the case with persons who wage war against God and his Messenger and actively seek to spread mischief in the land, then the question of death as a prescribed penalty for an apostate who continues to lead a peaceful life after his sin of apostasy can hardly arise within a Qur`anic perspective.

A little later in the same surah, al-Ma`idah, the Qur`an deals with the other crime – murdering another human being -- for which death penalty can be applied:

And We ordained for them in [the Torah]: “Person for person, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal.” But if anyone remits the retaliation as charity, it shall be an expiation for him. And whoever does not judge by what God has sent down, such are the transgressors (zalimun)[6]. (5:45)

The above verse refers to what God commanded the Jews through the Torah, but in the following verse the Qur`an gives a more balanced law to the Muslims:

O you who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the slain, the free for the free, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. But if one (who killed) is forgiven by the brother of (the one killed) against ransom, there should be follow up in fairness and payment to the heir in handsome gratitude. This is a concession from your Lord and a mercy (from him). Then whoever exceeds the limit (of the ransom agreement) after this he shall have a painful chastisement. (2:178)

Again there is no mandatory death penalty. If the relatives of the murdered person accept ransom, the death penalty can be removed.

Hence: a) there is no mandatory death penalty in the Qur`an for any crime; and b) since the Qur`an does not prescribe the death penalty even for crimes more serious than simple apostasy, death penalty for apostasy as such has no place within the Qur`anic perspective.



Qur`an 4:88-91



The four verses, 4:88-91, when carefully examined, also show that the Qur`anic perspective conflicts with the death penalty for apostasy. The first two verses state:





Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two groups regarding the hypocrites? God has cast them backward (arkasa) because of what they have earned. Do you want to guide him whom God has made to go astray? And he whom God has made to go astray, you will not find for him any way. They wish that you reject faith as they have done, so that you all become the same. So take not protectors/friends from them till they emigrate in the way of God. But if they turn away, seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither protectors/friends from them nor helpers. (4:88-89)

This passage begins by talking about hypocrites, that is, people who had declared themselves Muslims but in their hearts had decided not to believe in the teachings of Islam. The demand that they should do hijrah fi sabil allah (emigrate for the sake of God) shows that they are not the hypocrites of Madinah but are living among non-Muslims in Makkah and possibly elsewhere. Verse 98 of the same surah shows that these people were not doing hijrah despite the fact that they were able to. The reason for their not doing hijrah was their hypocrisy. Makkan non-believers who had persecuted Muslims for years, would not have tolerated in their midst any true Muslims. They would have accepted among them only those “Muslims” who had stopped taking their “islam” seriously and felt more comfortable among non-believers, hostile to Islam, than among Muslims. These hypocrites pretended to be Muslims because they wanted to be secure from both sides (see 4:91). And Makkan non-believers did not force them to publicly renounce their “islam” because they found them useful for gathering information about Muslims or for some other subversive actions against the ummah.



In order to defeat these hypocrites in their game and force them to clearly choose between Islam and kufr, God commanded them to do hijrah. Their obedience to this command meant that they had chosen Islam and their disobedience meant that they had chosen kufr. Those who chose kufr in this way became apostates, since previously they called themselves Muslims. Thus the verses are a source of guidance for us regarding the way the apostates are to be treated.



At first sight the words “seize them and kill them wherever you find them” would suggest that they are to be killed. But this is quickly seen to be wrong if we read the next two verses:



Except those who join a group between you and whom there is a (peace-) treaty or those who approach you with their hearts restraining them from fighting you or fighting their own people. Had God willed he would have given them power over you and they would have fought you. So if they withdraw from you and do not fight you but give you (guarantees of) peace, then God has opened no way for you against them.



You will find others that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people. Every time they are sent back to temptation they give in to it. If they do not withdraw from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace, nor restrain their hands, seize them and kill them, wherever you find them. In their case We have provided you with a clear warrant against them. (4:90-91).

These verses clarify the command “seize them and kill them”. The apostates who rejected Islam by failing to emigrate as commanded by God are divided into three categories:



1) Those who ally themselves with a group with whom Muslims have a peace treaty;

2) Those who want to keep neutrality, committing themselves to peace with both the Muslims and their own people who had not accepted Islam;

3) Those who provide no real guarantee of peace to Muslims and by all indications ally themselves with non-believers engaged in hostilities towards Islam.



The first two types of apostates are to be left in peace while the third one is to be treated like any non-believers in a state of war: they are to be seized and killed wherever they are found. Notice that the Qur`an uses the words “God has opened no way for you against them” in connection with the apostates of the first two types. This means that the Qur`an actually prohibits killing those apostates who want to live in peaceful terms with the Muslims.



Thus according to the Qur`an the apostates are to be treated like other kuffar: If they want to live in peace with the Muslims, they are to be left in peace and if they assume a hostile attitude, then they are to be treated accordingly.



Additional Evidence



There are some other Qur`anic verses that, although not as conclusive as those discussed above, nevertheless reveal a perspective that is at odds with a legal penalty for apostasy. Thus the Qur`an is very emphatic that victory belongs to truth. It says:

“Truth has come and falsehood has vanished. Surely, falsehood was bound to vanish” (17:81)

“Nay, We fling the truth against falsehood and it destroys it and behold it then vanishes” (21:18)

In other passages it predicts the victory of Islam because it is the religion of truth:

He it is who has sent his Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth that he may make it prevail over all (corrupted expressions of) religion (48:28; see also 9:32-33, 61:8-9).

These verses show that the Qur`an is founded on a complete confidence in the validity of the following three principles:



1. Truth is bound to win over falsehood.

2. Islam is founded on truth.

3. Islam will therefore prevail.



Within this perspective Islam has no need for keeping people under its fold at pain of death. Such measures befit those systems that are essentially built on falsehood because that is the only way their followers can hope to slow down their inevitable march to defeat and disappearance. For a “religion of truth” it is more advantageous if people are free to examine ideas and then choose the religion or ideology or system they want. This is why the Qur`an establishes the following famous principle:



There is no compulsion in religion. Right has become distinct from wrong. So whoever rejects evil and puts faith in God has grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold that never breaks. And God is hearing, knowing. (2:256)

This verse is usually understood to mean that people cannot be compelled to become Muslims but they can be compelled to stay Muslims. But the words, “no compulsion in religion” are very general. They should apply equally to entering or leaving any religion, including Islam. One may try to argue against this general understanding of the verse as follows:



A person cannot be compelled to enter Islam but a person who is a Muslim is subject to the laws of Islam and those laws require death for leaving Islam.



This argument would have had force only if we are able to establish that the Qur`an prescribes the death penalty for apostasy like it prescribes penalties for theft, zina` etc. But in the absence of any such prescription, we must take the words “no compulsion in religion” in their general sense and understand them to be applicable for both entering and leaving Islam7].



Moreover, apostasy is a move from islam to kufr. But what if we cannot establish the islam of a person? For example, consider a person born in a Muslim family who at one point described himself as a Muslim according to custom but he never really believed in Islam. If he then renounces Islam, is he really moving from islam to kufr? Is he really bound by the laws of Islam considering that he never really made a choice to live by them?



From the confident conviction that the message of the Qur`an is based on truth and therefore will prevail, comes also the Qur`anic condemnation of fitnah, persecuting people for their religion, which is described as worse than killing in battle:

And fight in the way of God those who fight you but do not transgress due limits … al-fitnah is worse than killing (in battle). … Fight them till there is no fitnah and the religion is for God (alone) (2:191-193; see also 2:217).

These verses refer to the fighting that the non-believers were waging against the Prophet and his followers. This fighting was part of their fitnah or persecution of Muslims, aimed at suppressing the Islamic movement. The verses commanded the Muslims to fight back because fitnah is worse than killing in battle and so they should choose the lesser of the two evils. The fighting should continue till there is no more fitnah and the religion is for God. The words “the religion is for God (alone)” are closely related to “there is no more fitnah” and mean that the choice of religion is a matter between a person and God and not to be determined by force. Contrary to what some commentators suggest the words do not mean, “till everyone accepts Islam” because it is definitely known that the Prophet made peace with many tribes even though they had not accepted Islam (see e.g. 4:90 discussed earlier) and because the Qur`an explicitly states that when the non-believing opponents incline to peace the Prophet should do the same (8:61).



That the death penalty for apostasy conflicts with the Qur`anic perspective is also shown by those verses in which it is stated that the Messenger came not as a watcher over people but only as one who clearly declares the truth: 5:92, 99, 13:40, 16:35, 82, 24:54, 29:18, 36:17, 42:48, 64:12. Significantly, the first of these verses is addressed to the believers, since it is after explicitly addressing the believers and giving to them some laws (5:90-91) that the verse says:

“And obey God and obey the Messenger and beware (and fear God). Then if you turn away, know that our Messenger’s duty is to simply convey (the message) clearly. (5:92)

The Qur`an then continues addressing believers, giving some further regulations, and then says again:

On our Messenger there is no obligation but conveying (the message). And God knows what you reveal and what you conceal (5:99)

In 5:92 and 99 the Muslims are not told that if you turn away then death penalty awaits you but rather they are told that the Messenger has done his duty by conveying the message to you and now it is up to you whether you want to stay faithful to him or whether you want to turn away from him8].



DEALING WITH APOSTASY



As observed above the Qur`an expects us to deal with apostates like other kuffar. Therefore the Qur`anic guidance for dealing with the apostates is essentially the same as its guidance for dealing with other kuffar. Briefly, this guidance is that we should treat them according to the degree of friendship or hostility they show to Islam and Muslims. To translate this into more specific guidance we can divide apostates in three categories and see how each category is to be treated:



1) An apostate leaves Islam because of ignorance of Islam or some confusion that leads him to think that his new religion or way is truer and better. Such a person will be willing to listen to the Muslims if they want to show him that he has made a mistake. The Muslims should treat him kindly and argue with him in the best possible way. (60:8, 16:125). But Muslims should be careful not to show him more kindness than they show to other Muslims, for, otherwise the apostate may be encouraged to stay an apostate.



2) An apostate leaves Islam, not out of a belief that he is moving to something truer and better, but to satisfy some of his worldly desires, e. g., to get greater importance or more comfortable life or greater acceptance of his lifestyle such as homosexual lifestyle. A sign of such an apostate is that he shows little inclination to listen to any reasoning. If such an apostate does not engage in any hostile activity against Islam and Muslims, he should not be subjected to any active hostility (4:90). But since he has clearly preferred kufr over iman the following commandment of God will apply:




O you who believe! Do not take for friends and allies (even) your fathers and your brothers if they love disbelief more than faith: if any of you do so, they are the wrong doers. (9:23)

According to some traditions “this ayah was revealed concerning those nine men who after apostasy went to Makkah”. (Panipati, Tafsir Mazhari)



Beyond avoiding friendship and alliance with apostates of this second type, the Muslims can impose boycott against them, since such boycott was imposed by the Prophet on the three Companions mentioned in 9:118. These three Companions did not commit apostasy but simply failed to join the Muslims in jihad without a good reason.



3) The third type of apostate is one who leaves Islam and then engages in hostile actions against Islam and Muslims, e.g. knowingly engages in propaganda against Islam and Muslims blatantly ignoring facts that he is expected to know well, passes secrets to the enemy, takes part in fighting against the Muslims. Such an apostate can be punished by anything from exile to death.



And God knows better!

- http://www.islamicperspectives.com/apostasy1.htm



Make ye no excuses: ye have rejected Faith after ye had accepted it. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you, for that they are in sin.

— Quran 9:66
He who disbelieves in Allah after his having believed, not he who is compelled while his heart is at rest on account of faith, but he who opens (his) breast to disbelief-- on these is the wrath of Allah, and they shall have a grievous chastisement.

— Quran 16:106
Other Qur'anic verses[33] refer to apostasy. The Quran reprimands apostasy in Islam, and appears to suggest that it deserves coercion and severe punishment and that apostates are damned.[34] However, there is no mention of any specific corporal punishment for apostates to which they are to be subjected in this world,[35][36][37] nor do Qur'anic verses refer, whether explicitly or implicitly, to the need to force an apostate to return to Islam or to kill him if he refuses to do so.[38]


Once again you have been proven wrong and showed you no little to nothing about Islam. Next time Read the Quran you ninwit. Islam does not need to be reformed.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/saudi-arabias-treasure.458414/page-6#ixzz4OdVV3lvn

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

Islam doesn't need to change, just as Christianity didn't, peoples belief systems, thought process, and way of life will, as they drift away from something that is no longer compatible with modern society in much of its aspects. That's just the natural course it will take. My thread was regarding a scenario where an 'unnatural', 'dramatic' change of course could have an bigger impact on change(whichever way) than a natural process will.



Bro you're starting to sound more like a kafir, a real Muslim doesn't have his @ss on fire nor have hasd/hiqd against others, I knew from the start your sabre rattling was bull, you're on ignore munafiq.

Btw, it's no coincidence you only joined the forum to attack me, if you know me in person be brave like a true Muslim you claim you are and confront me. But you're not a true Muslim, too bad isn't it.

The assumption that apostates will be enough in numbers and lead the narrative maybe true as history is full of such deviations. However it is also full of reform by the Almighty as well. The proof is Prophet’s sent to bring people back to the original message and The Truth. So your argument falls flat while people may deviate truth will always remain the same. And Islam will rise as per the will of Almighty and not be stopped by derision of the apostates.

 

[Falcon29]

@EgyptianAmerican

You realize Sahih Bukhari is the most authentic Hadith among all Sunni schools of thought? These hadith are all accepted, and I cited references from them. So for you, hadith should be critiqued if it contains something controversial, to save face for yourselves. Hadith is contradictory, just like some things in the Quran are, because the Prophet contradicted himself on some occasions. He clearly approached matters with logic, and made his decisions based on his judgement.

Tarik Ramadan is just trying to sugar coat this specific aspect of Islam. Like I said, doing these mental gymnastics does not help your case. I don't believe in changing Islam, if it was genuinely a divine religion and if God was actually real. However, it's not possible to prove God's existence, hence why we are then obligated to critique the text, concepts and rulings of Islam, to discern if it sounds more like something that is man-made. And if we come to that conclusion, or close it, then the logical next step is to reform Islam.

Don't play this 'you're not Muslim' game, because there are hundreds of ways to render Muslims non-Muslims, as it occurs all over Muslim world, and your rejection of hadith can be used against you to render you non-Muslim. But, you're misinformed person, grew up in the US, doesn't know what Islam is about, all you know is to sugar coat it and make it what you guys want it to be. Bottom line, there are 4 madhabs for a reason, and they are accepted by all Sunni Muslims, and those religious scholars are more educated than you on the faith. I also don't have to be Muslim to have knowledge on Islam, or critique Islam. You are like other peers who will just insult/attempt to attack ones credibility in order to get them to remain silent. That tactic works will others, but not me, I'm a Palestinian that holds my head high, and I can disagree with Islam, yet remain a Palestine. We are a national peoples, and your stupid insinsutations in the past that I can't support whichever party I want, are just stupid, stupid. They are my countrymen and do not get involved in peoples personal affairs. I can choose what government I prefer.

Anyway, getting to your copy paste which you clearly aren't reading through:

3) The third type of apostate is one who leaves Islam and then engages in hostile actions against Islam and Muslims, e.g. knowingly engages in propaganda against Islam and Muslims blatantly ignoring facts that he is expected to know well, passes secrets to the enemy, takes part in fighting against the Muslims. Such an apostate can be punished by anything from exile to death.

Here it makes it clear, 'spreading propaganda' against Islam, is punishable by death. So for example, if someone leaves Islam, and he is asked why, or has to justify himself. Then he will point out the flaws, controversies, contradictions and man made themes in Islam. And if he does as they requested, then this is considered as 'propaganda', hence Islam doesn't accept any form of free thought, or free will, it chooses to kill people who exposes these flaws. That can only tell us one thing:

So "Islam", the supposedly "perfect, universal and timeless" religion- devised as a guide for all mankind, by an infallible and omnipotent deity- is unable to convince everyone of its extraordinary and nonsensical claims and cure doubt and insecurity amongst it's adherents, and stand firm under scrutiny, criticism and mockery- committed, especially by those who identify as former Muslims...and thus requires the disproportionate response of violent and irreversible, execution of apostates (for the non violent and reversible offence of apostasy). Why? Because apostates might just expose "Islam", to be a false and flawed ideology...Well then...this clearly isn't a "perfect" nor a "peaceful" religion, but a "false and flawed" ideology. (source: Reddit)

From here on, it's up to an individual to discern if this is the will/judgement of God, or makes the religion a dogmatic one.

..........
..........

Another part of your copy paste:

1) An apostate leaves Islam because of ignorance of Islam or some confusion that leads him to think that his new religion or way is truer and better. Such a person will be willing to listen to the Muslims if they want to show him that he has made a mistake. The Muslims should treat him kindly and argue with him in the best possible way. (60:8, 16:125). But Muslims should be careful not to show him more kindness than they show to other Muslims, for, otherwise the apostate may be encouraged to stay an apostate.

So this ruling ascerns that anyone who is not longer interested in Islam, is either confused or ignorant, and there could be no other reason, not that there are clear controversies that suggest it is man made, or clear abuses that were committed. So you are directed to argue with him, to get them to return, but also intimidate them at same time, and if they return, then all is good, no need to kill anyone. If they are not convinced and just want to their own lives, then they are to be killed. Now you may think that at the past, people were indeed converting, and leaving was genuinely leaving. In modern day, however, majority of Muslims are born with the religion. And as previous ruling stated, if they are adult who can think, their punishment is execution. If they are little children(clearly not going to happen), then it's permissible.

Not much else needed to go over.

The assumption that apostates will be enough in numbers and lead the narrative maybe true as history is full of such deviations. However it is also full of reform by the Almighty as well. The proof is Prophet’s sent to bring people back to the original message and The Truth. So your argument falls flat while people may deviate truth will always remain the same. And Islam will rise as per the will of Almighty and not be stopped by derision of the apostates.

What is 'Islam will rise' supposed to mean? Islam 'rose' in the past, it did not produce anything near a perfect society. On contrary, there was internal strife on massive scale. Also that is not a mere assumption, it will be a future reality. That would commence sooner than later, if there weren't apostate laws and threats of killing people. It can't be a 'truth' if you have to kill everyone that uses logic for it to remain a truth.

 

[SALMAN F]

Well now the cards are on the table.. you are either a Christian Iraqi or Christian lebanese trying to troll here on PDF..
Islam as a system ruled most of the world very successfully for more than a thounsand years.. So I have nothing to add..It is the basis of modern democracy..

You just like what I said you can stand someone who left your religion that's why you accusing with baseless claim

Which world that was ruled by islam and become successful???

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

@EgyptianAmerican

You realize Sahih Bukhari is the most authentic Hadith among all Sunni schools of thought? These hadith are all accepted, and I cited references from them. So for you, hadith should be critiqued if it contains something controversial, to save face for yourselves. Hadith is contradictory, just like some things in the Quran are, because the Prophet contradicted himself on some occasions. He clearly approached matters with logic, and made his decisions based on his judgement.

Tarik Ramadan is just trying to sugar coat this specific aspect of Islam. Like I said, doing these mental gymnastics does not help your case. I don't believe in changing Islam, if it was genuinely a divine religion and if God was actually real. However, it's not possible to prove God's existence, hence why we are then obligated to critique the text, concepts and rulings of Islam, to discern if it sounds more like something that is man-made. And if we come to that conclusion, or close it, then the logical next step is to reform Islam.

Don't play this 'you're not Muslim' game, because there are hundreds of ways to render Muslims non-Muslims, as it occurs all over Muslim world, and your rejection of hadith can be used against you to render you non-Muslim. But, you're misinformed person, grew up in the US, doesn't know what Islam is about, all you know is to sugar coat it and make it what you guys want it to be. Bottom line, there are 4 madhabs for a reason, and they are accepted by all Sunni Muslims, and those religious scholars are more educated than you on the faith. I also don't have to be Muslim to have knowledge on Islam, or critique Islam. You are like other peers who will just insult/attempt to attack ones credibility in order to get them to remain silent. That tactic works will others, but not me, I'm a Palestinian that holds my head high, and I can disagree with Islam, yet remain a Palestine. We are a national peoples, and your stupid insinsutations in the past that I can't support whichever party I want, are just stupid, stupid. They are my countrymen and do not get involved in peoples personal affairs. I can choose what government I prefer.

Anyway, getting to your copy paste which you clearly aren't reading through:

3) The third type of apostate is one who leaves Islam and then engages in hostile actions against Islam and Muslims, e.g. knowingly engages in propaganda against Islam and Muslims blatantly ignoring facts that he is expected to know well, passes secrets to the enemy, takes part in fighting against the Muslims. Such an apostate can be punished by anything from exile to death.

Here it makes it clear, 'spreading propaganda' against Islam, is punishable by death. So for example, if someone leaves Islam, and he is asked why, or has to justify himself. Then he will point out the flaws, controversies, contradictions and man made themes in Islam. And if he does as they requested, then this is considered as 'propaganda', hence Islam doesn't accept any form of free thought, or free will, it chooses to kill people who exposes these flaws. That can only tell us one thing:

So "Islam", the supposedly "perfect, universal and timeless" religion- devised as a guide for all mankind, by an infallible and omnipotent deity- is unable to convince everyone of its extraordinary and nonsensical claims and cure doubt and insecurity amongst it's adherents, and stand firm under scrutiny, criticism and mockery- committed, especially by those who identify as former Muslims...and thus requires the disproportionate response of violent and irreversible, execution of apostates (for the non violent and reversible offence of apostasy). Why? Because apostates might just expose "Islam", to be a false and flawed ideology...Well then...this clearly isn't a "perfect" nor a "peaceful" religion, but a "false and flawed" ideology. (source: Reddit)

From here on, it's up to an individual to discern if this is the will/judgement of God, or makes the religion a dogmatic one.

..........
..........

Another part of your copy paste:

1) An apostate leaves Islam because of ignorance of Islam or some confusion that leads him to think that his new religion or way is truer and better. Such a person will be willing to listen to the Muslims if they want to show him that he has made a mistake. The Muslims should treat him kindly and argue with him in the best possible way. (60:8, 16:125). But Muslims should be careful not to show him more kindness than they show to other Muslims, for, otherwise the apostate may be encouraged to stay an apostate.

So this ruling ascerns that anyone who is not longer interested in Islam, is either confused or ignorant, and there could be no other reason, not that there are clear controversies that suggest it is man made, or clear abuses that were committed. So you are directed to argue with him, to get them to return, but also intimidate them at same time, and if they return, then all is good, no need to kill anyone. If they are not convinced and just want to their own lives, then they are to be killed. Now you may think that at the past, people were indeed converting, and leaving was genuinely leaving. In modern day, however, majority of Muslims are born with the religion. And as previous ruling stated, if they are adult who can think, their punishment is execution. If they are little children(clearly not going to happen), then it's permissible.

Not much else needed to go over.



What is 'Islam will rise' supposed to mean? Islam 'rose' in the past, it did not produce anything near a perfect society. On contrary, there was internal strife on massive scale. Also that is not a mere assumption, it will be a future reality. That would commence sooner than later, if there weren't apostate laws and threats of killing people. It can't be a 'truth' if you have to kill everyone that uses logic for it to remain a truth.

Here again you you miss the point! Death by no means is the final verdict in Islam. It is the day of judgement! An apostate may live a life of 100 years does it matter in the eventual decision that may come. People live oblivious to the day of judgement and herein is the promise of the Almighty. Surah Fateha is all about asking the gracious God for a straight Path that one may persevere on the day of judgement.

Islams rise means implementation of true Shariah on planet earth or it becoming the primary law on this planet and that is it. A utopia that you have in mind may never exist but the will of Almighty will come to pass! Your contention of Muslims becoming apostates when given a chance falls flat as this was the very contention of many in the west that once Muslims will be exposed to "free" Western society they will no longer be Muslims yet it is West that is embracing Islam! The free will is the absolute thing in Shahdah or ones profession to Islam as men don't see what is in hearts but it is the Almighty. You are emphasizing killing as a weapon by Islam that is holding the people my question at whose behest? Qui bono? Kings and leaders of Islam don't benefit they are holding the wrong position according to Sharia. Clergy? Islam has no ordained ministry! There is no separate political or religious class in Islam! Only ones with knowledge and without. Killing however is the way of evil! More people die for Satan then Islam! They die for theirs idols, they have more weapons and bigger militaries. They hold their lines and protect their evil ways calling it freedom. Yet it is the Almighty who Let's them live provides for them even when they disbelieve slander. The Creator gives them life, food, wealth in spite of their ways. Quran says Paradise is not easy, one will be tested for it then who will join the party of God! And give up the God given right to commit evil.

 

[EgyptianAmerican]

Here it makes it clear, 'spreading propaganda' against Islam, is punishable by death.

You clearly didn't read the post.

passes secrets to the enemy, takes part in fighting against the Muslims. Such(In this situation) an apostate can be punished by anything from exile to death.

Idiot, An Apsotate who does this can be punished by Death if he takes up arms against Muslims. It's called Self-Defense idiot.

So "Islam", the supposedly "perfect, universal and timeless" religion- devised as a guide for all mankind, by an infallible and omnipotent deity- is unable to convince everyone of its extraordinary and nonsensical claims and cure doubt and insecurity amongst it's adherents, and stand firm under scrutiny, criticism and mockery- committed, especially by those who identify as former Muslims...and thus requires the disproportionate response of violent and irreversible, execution of apostates (for the non violent and reversible offence of apostasy). Why? Because apostates might just expose "Islam", to be a false and flawed ideology...Well then...this clearly isn't a "perfect" nor a "peaceful" religion, but a "false and flawed" ideology. (source: Reddit)

More dumbassery, What Flaws? Got a Problem? Then Leave Islam, What's your Problem?

Where are this Flaws? I have yet to see any?


Expose Islam? Expose it for what? Using Logic?

So this ruling ascerns that anyone who is not longer interested in Islam, is either confused or ignorant, and there could be no other reason, not that there are clear controversies that suggest it is man made, or clear abuses that were committed. So you are directed to argue with him, to get them to return, but also intimidate them at same time, and if they return, then all is good, no need to kill anyone. If they are not convinced and just want to their own lives, then they are to be killed. Now you may think that at the past, people were indeed converting, and leaving was genuinely leaving. In modern day, however, majority of Muslims are born with the religion. And as previous ruling stated, if they are adult who can think, their punishment is execution. If they are little children(clearly not going to happen), then it's permissible.

Intimidate? Where does it say to Intimidate, This entire Paragraph contradicts your first one. If they don't return then you still don't kill them. The Qur'an never commands to kill Apostates, Therefore you can't.

You realize Sahih Bukhari is the most authentic Hadith among all Sunni schools of thought? These hadith are all accepted, and I cited references from them. So for you, hadith should be critiqued if it contains something controversial, to save face for yourselves. Hadith is contradictory, just like some things in the Quran are, because the Prophet contradicted himself on some occasions. He clearly approached matters with logic, and made his decisions based on his judgement.

Yes but does that change the fact that Hadiths are collected orally? What is going to stop someone for making up a Hadith to support their view? If Parents are willing to say Santa is a actual person to convince their children to act good then whats so crazy about a Parent making up a Hadith?

You are literally an Idiot who cannot Read. Please read what I put on My other comments. THE WHOLE THING, Not cherry picking and lying about bull.

You seem to ignore these parts idiot,

From the confident conviction that the message of the Qur`an is based on truth and therefore will prevail, comes also the Qur`anic condemnation of fitnah, persecuting people for their religion, which is described as worse than killing in battle:


That the death penalty for apostasy conflicts with the Qur`anic perspective is also shown by those verses in which it is stated that the Messenger came not as a watcher over people but only as one who clearly declares the truth: 5:92, 99, 13:40, 16:35, 82, 24:54, 29:18, 36:17, 42:48, 64:12. Significantly, the first of these verses is addressed to the believers, since it is after explicitly addressing the believers and giving to them some laws (5:90-91) that the verse says:

“And obey God and obey the Messenger and beware (and fear God). Then if you turn away, know that our Messenger’s duty is to simply convey (the message) clearly. (5:92)

The Qur`an then continues addressing believers, giving some further regulations, and then says again:

On our Messenger there is no obligation but conveying (the message). And God knows what you reveal and what you conceal (5:99)

In 5:92 and 99 the Muslims are not told that if you turn away then death penalty awaits you but rather they are told that the Messenger has done his duty by conveying the message to you and now it is up to you whether you want to stay faithful to him or whether you want to turn away from him8].


— Quran 9:66
He who disbelieves in Allah after his having believed, not he who is compelled while his heart is at rest on account of faith, but he who opens (his) breast to disbelief-- on these is the wrath of Allah, and they shall have a grievous chastisement.

— Quran 16:106
Other Qur'anic verses[33] refer to apostasy. The Quran reprimands apostasy in Islam, and appears to suggest that it deserves coercion and severe punishment and that apostates are damned.[34] However, there is no mention of any specific corporal punishment for apostates to which they are to be subjected in this world,[35][36][37] nor do Qur'anic verses refer, whether explicitly or implicitly, to the need to force an apostate to return to Islam or to kill him if he refuses to do so.[38]


Once again you have been proven wrong and showed you no little to nothing about Islam. Next time Read the Quran you ninwit. Islam does not need to be reformed.

THE ABSENCE FROM THE QUR`AN OF ANY PENALTY FOR APOSTASY


It is a significant fact that the Book of God does not prescribe any punishment for apostasy. Many Muslims would immediately say, The Qur`an does not tell us everything. We need to go to the Hadith to find guidance on matters not touched by the Qur`an. But while this is true of matters of detail, this is not true of fundamental issues. God knew that while the Qur`an would be preserved faithfully, the authenticity of ahadith will remain subject to doubts in most cases. Therefore, he would make sure that all the basic teachings would be included in the Qur`an while leaving some details to ahadith so that the size of the Qur`anic text remains manageable for memorization. Looked in this way the absence in the Qur`an of any punishment for apostasy becomes very significant.


The punishment for apostasy is not a detail that we can expect God to leave for ahadith, especially if that punishment is death, since taking the life of a person, if done without a just cause, is regarded by the Qur`an as tantamount to killing all human beings (5:32). Even lesser penalties for theft (cutting of hands, 5:38), illicit sexual intercourse (100 lashes, 24:2), and unsubstantiated accusation of adultery (80 lashes, 24.4) were not considered by God as matters of details to be left to the ahadith. Therefore there is no reason why God would consider the more serious penalty of death for a more serious sin of apostasy as a matter of detail to be left to ahadith.


It is also significant that the Qur`an refers to apostasy several times (2:217, 3:86-90, 4:137, 9:66, 9:74, 16:106-109, 4:88-91, 47:25-27) and yet does not prescribe any punishment for it. Had the Qur`an not mentioned apostasy at all, we could have perhaps argued that there was no occasion for the Qur`anic revelation to deal with this subject and it was therefore left for the Holy Prophet to deal with. It may also be noted that almost all the verses that refer to apostasy are found in surahs said to be belonging to the Madinan period when the Islamic state had been established and penalties for crimes could be prescribed and applied. Only 16:106-109 appears in a surah identified as Makkan.


It is thus a natural conclusion to draw that the absence of any legal penalty for apostasy in the Qur`an means that God never intended any such penalty to become part of Islamic Shari‘ah.


Source: https://defence.pk/threads/saudi-arabias-treasure.458414/page-6#ixzz4OhO2zBYe

You cannot guide those you would like to but God guides those He wills. He has best knowledge of the guided.” (Holy Quran/28: 56)

How do these verses not support Religious freedom?

“God does not forbid you from being good to those who have not fought you in the religion or driven you from your homes, or from being just towards them. God loves those who are just.” (Surat al-Mumtahana, 8)

“We have appointed a law and a practice for every one of you. Had God willed, He would have made you a single community, but He wanted to test you regarding what has come to you. So compete with each other in doing good. Every one of you will return to God and He will inform you regarding the things about which you differed.” (Surat al-Ma’ida, 48)


If you follow these Verses then they also Apply with Apostates.

But those who reject Faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of Faith,- never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray.

— Quran 3:90

Where does it say execute them?


Source: https://defence.pk/threads/saudi-arabias-treasure.458414/page-6#ixzz4OhOBq3ZM





You know what's really Sad? The fact that you are a hyprocritical flip-flopper, Who Cherry-Picks and takes things out of Context, like every other Modern American and European Islamaphobe. Never have I ever been THIS Right.