Saudi Arabia's Treasure

[Falcon29]

On ignore troll, you wrote all that for nothing

 

[EgyptianAmerican]

On ignore troll

Thought so, You should keep on Running away from the Truth.

 

[Falcon29]

People will and have changed better or for worse. Islam cannot change for it will not be such! If Belief here is for Hereafter then change will matter to one's Hereafter.

Islam doesn't need to change, just as Christianity didn't, peoples belief systems, thought process, and way of life will, as they drift away from something that is no longer compatible with modern society in much of its aspects. That's just the natural course it will take. My thread was regarding a scenario where an 'unnatural', 'dramatic' change of course could have an bigger impact on change(whichever way) than a natural process will.

Thought so, You should keep on Running away from the Truth.

Bro you're starting to sound more like a kafir, a real Muslim doesn't have his @ss on fire nor have hasd/hiqd against others, I knew from the start your sabre rattling was bull, you're on ignore munafiq.

Btw, it's no coincidence you only joined the forum to attack me, if you know me in person be brave like a true Muslim you claim you are and confront me. But you're not a true Muslim, too bad isn't it.

 

[EgyptianAmerican]

Bro you're starting to sound more like a kafir, a real Muslim doesn't have his @ss on fire nor have hasd/hiqd against others, I knew from the start your sabre rattling was bull, you're on ignore munafiq.

Stooping to this level are we? Was it not you who said this?

that declare anyone who's concerned about fate of Muslim people, as a non-Muslim

When have I ever acted against the good of the Muslim community? My Saber rattling? Excuse me but I am not nice to those who Declare Islam bad simply because they are ignorant idiots who know nothing of the Religion.

Btw, it's no coincidence you only joined the forum to attack me, if you know me in person be brave like a true Muslim you claim you are and confront me. But you're not a true Muslim, too bad isn't it.

You think to highly of yourself, Look at my First post and see why I joined.

Confront you? Why would I ever go toe to toe with Spineless Islamaphobic Dogs? I am a True follower of Islam you are simply a Hyprocritical, bigoted,Islamaphobic Palestinian. Be glad I still have sympathy for your People despite your pathetic existence.

Now go keep spreading lies and conspiracies against Islam you spineless dog.

 

[Falcon29]

Stooping to this level are we? Was it not you who said this?

You have to get a taste of your own medicine boy.

When have I ever acted against the good of the Muslim community? My Saber rattling? Excuse me but I am not nice to those who Declare Islam bad simply because they are ignorant idiots who know nothing of the Religion.

First of all, I'm not ignorant of this religion, if religious debate was allowed on this forum, I would gladly debate you on any aspect of Islam. Second, I'm no Islamophobe, once again you demonstrate that you can't understand basic terms, Islamophones are those who irrationality hate Muslims, I don't hate Muslims, and no one here thinks so besides you.

Thirdly, you shouldn't even whine about Islamophobes, otherwise you invite yourself to more criticism. Suppressing peoples feelings does not achieve anything, it will blow back, that's all. You need to accept that this a diverse world, with many thinkers, and many ideas being shared. Much of criticism is constructive meant to better you. But, you're too narrow minded currently to see that.

You think to highly of yourself, Look at my First post and see why I joined.

Confront you? Why would I ever go toe to toe with Spineless Islamaphobic Dogs? I am a True follower of Islam you are simply a Hyprocritical, bigoted,Islamaphobic Palestinian. Be glad I still have sympathy for your People despite your pathetic existence.

Now go keep spreading lies and conspiracies against Islam you spineless dog.

Anyway, I'm not interested in debating with you, you are the one who follows every post of mine and tries to use it against me. So grow up, don't take my disinterest as sign of weakness , otherwise you're not a 'true Muslim'.

 

[Attila the Hun]

@Falcon29 @EgyptianAmerican get a room you two!

 

[EgyptianAmerican]

You have to get a taste of your own medicine boy.

I never once called you anything of the sort.

First of all, I'm not ignorant of this religion, if religious debate was allowed on this forum, I would gladly debate you on any aspect of Islam. Second, I'm no Islamophobe, once again you demonstrate that you can't understand basic terms, Islamophones are those who irrationality hate Muslims, I don't hate Muslims, and no one here thinks so besides you.

You are ignorant of this Religion,

There should be no reason that Muslims have to keep following Islam

observe the rules that infringe on your personal rights

And no you can't have an Islamic democratic state, there are rules for an Islamic state, that go against principles of democracy. What you're referring to is a secular democratic state.

What you meant to say is Muslims can have a democratic state with religious freedom and identity simultaneously. This 'Islamic democratic' notion is not possible and is contradictory.

All of this I have debunked, You bigot.

Thirdly, you shouldn't even whine about Islamophobes, otherwise you invite yourself to more criticism. Suppressing peoples feelings does not achieve anything, it will blow back, that's all. You need to accept that this a diverse world, with many thinkers, and many ideas being shared. Much of criticism is constructive meant to better you. But, you're too narrow minded currently to see that.

Suppressing? No I am debunking.

Anyway, I'm not interested in debating with you, you are the one who follows every post of mine and tries to use it against me. So grow up, don't take my disinterest as sign of weakness , otherwise you're not a 'true Muslim'.

Because you are wrong, this is fine to acknowledge.

Wrong once again, I read threads and when I see you spew more bull out of your bigoted mouth, I correct it. Nothing wrong with that.

In fact by Making this thread you are inviting both discussion and criticism, don't like the Truth? then don't make these type of threads because someone is going to pop your bubble and you are going to run around and cry about it.

get a room you two!

I am sorry but I am passionate about these types of things.

 

[Attila the Hun]

I never once called you anything of the sort.



You are ignorant of this Religion,









All of this I have debunked, You bigot.




Suppressing? No I am debunking.




Because you are wrong, this is fine to acknowledge.

Wrong once again, I read threads and when I see you spew more bull out of your bigoted mouth, I correct it. Nothing wrong with that.

In fact by Making this thread you are inviting both discussion and criticism, don't like the Truth? then don't make these type of threads because someone is going to pop your bubble and you are going to run around and cry about it.




I am sorry but I am passionate about these types of things.

We see that lol

 

[Falcon29]

I never once called you anything of the sort.

your bigoted brain.

just not as a Jihadist

How can anyone respect you after saying these words?

Even though a lot of dumb Facists or retarded Anti-Muslim citizens

your idiocy.

every other idiot on the internet? If people like that are holding Islam back then who are pushing it forward? The idiots who know nothing of Islam? "

I never once called you anything of the sort.

So much for being a 'true Muslim', liar.

You are ignorant of this Religion,

In what way? Your empty statements don't prove your position, lol.

I am sorry but I am passionate about these types of things.

'Truth' is no universal concept or value, first of all. Secondly, being loud and stupid is not a quality you should be proud of. So far, there has been nothing but rhetoric in your post. Nothing amounting to an constructive debate, part of that because of your poor reading comprehension.

So no, you 'didn't' prove anything or debunk anything, you're just the typical modern Muslim that thinks empty emotional statements bring credibility to the values you claim a true Muslim should have. Rather than actually demonstrating that you represent those values, by proving you have good will towards others, don't lie, side with justice without bias, and the other values Muslims are supposed to uphold. And you haven't done that. All you've done is show us the same old mentality that everyone is annoyed of and far ahead of.

This is why you're not worth responding to.

 

[The SC]

I didn't repeat anything

The questions why you muslims fear that and ex muslim speak out about why he/she left islam since you claim that you have the truth??

I see that you are trying to shut any ex muslim mouth you fear us more than you fear a Christian who speak about islam

I didn't mention religion until @Sargon of Akkad brought it

Well now the cards are on the table.. you are either a Christian Iraqi or Christian lebanese trying to troll here on PDF..
Islam as a system ruled most of the world very successfully for more than a thounsand years.. So I have nothing to add..It is the basis of modern democracy..

 

[EgyptianAmerican]

So much for being a 'true Muslim', liar.

Where did I call you a non-Muslim? Since when can a Muslim not be a Bigot?

And even quoted a time when I was talking about someone else that was completely different.

'Truth' is no universal concept or value, first of all. Secondly, being loud and stupid is not a quality you should be proud of. So far, there has been nothing but rhetoric in your post. Nothing amounting to an constructive debate, part of that because of your poor reading comprehension.

Listen idiot, The only thing I have used is Facts, It is you who knows nothing.

So no, you 'didn't' prove anything or debunk anything, you're just the typical modern Muslim that thinks empty emotional statements bring credibility to the values you claim a true Muslim should have. Rather than actually demonstrating that you represent those values, by proving you have good will towards others, don't lie, side with justice without bias, and the other values Muslims are supposed to uphold. And you haven't done that. All you've done is show us the same old mentality that everyone is annoyed of and far ahead of.

I proved a lot and debunked a lot, Have you been Reading my comments?

disagree, the problem isn't religion. Though that is clearly something you cannot process in your bigoted brain.

It's also part of the poltical stucture, This video shows the clear problems with the Middle east without ever mentioning it.

“There is no compulsion where the religion is concerned.” (Holy Quran: 2/ 256)

“You cannot guide those you would like to but God guides those He wills. He has best knowledge of the guided.” (Holy Quran/28: 56)

How do these verses not support Religious freedom?

“God does not forbid you from being good to those who have not fought you in the religion or driven you from your homes, or from being just towards them. God loves those who are just.” (Surat al-Mumtahana, 8)

“We have appointed a law and a practice for every one of you. Had God willed, He would have made you a single community, but He wanted to test you regarding what has come to you. So compete with each other in doing good. Every one of you will return to God and He will inform you regarding the things about which you differed.” (Surat al-Ma’ida, 48)

See Religious Freedom.

“God does not love corruption”. (Surat al-Baqara, 205)

"Sargon of Akkad (Akkadian Šarru-ukīn or Šarru-kēn; sometimes known as "Sargon the Great"[4]) was the first ruler of the Semitic-speaking Akkadian Empire, known for his conquests of the Sumerian city-states in the 24th to 23rd centuries BC.[3]"

"Semitic |səˈmidik| adjective1 relating to or denoting a family of languages that includes Hebrew, Arabic, and Aramaic and certain ancient languages such as Phoenician and Akkadian, constituting the main subgroup of the Afro-Asiatic family.2 relating to the peoples who speak the Semitic languages, especially Hebrew and Arabic."
-dictionary

They may not have used Arabic but they are closely connected blood-wise. Right Now Syrians,Egyptians,Iraqis all have blood ties to Arabs and are ethnically and culturally Arab.

Even though a lot of dumb Facists or retarded Anti-Muslim citizens of those respective countries would love to say otherwise.

u clearly know nothing.

"The earliest written evidence of an Afroasiatic language is an Ancient Egyptian inscription of c. 3400 BC (5,400 years ago).[17] Symbols on Gerzean (Naqada II) pottery resembling Egyptian hieroglyphs date back to c. 4000 BC, suggesting an earlier possible dating. This gives us a minimum date for the age of Afroasiatic. However, Ancient Egyptian is highly divergent from Proto-Afroasiatic (Trombetti 1905: 1–2), and considerable time must have elapsed in between them. Estimates of the date at which the Proto-Afroasiatic language was spoken vary widely. They fall within a range between approximately 7,500 BC (9,500 years ago), and approximately 16,000 BC (18,000 years ago). According to Igor M. Diakonoff (1988: 33n), Proto-Afroasiatic was spoken c. 10,000 BC. Christopher Ehret (2002: 35–36) asserts that Proto-Afroasiatic was spoken c. 11,000 BC at the latest, and possibly as early as c. 16,000 BC. These dates are older than those associated with most other proto-languages."

Far older then Islam,


"In addition to languages spoken today, Afroasiatic includes several important ancient languages, such as Ancient Egyptian, Akkadian, Biblical Hebrew, and Old Aramaic. It is uncertain when or where the original homeland of the Afroasiatic family existed. Proposed locations include North Africa, the Horn of Africa, the Eastern Sahara, and the Levant."

Not Post-Islamic, it's Pre-Islamic Hence why hebrew and Aramaic is included.

"The most widely spoken Afroasiatic language is Arabic, including literary Arabic and the spoken colloquial varieties. It has around 200 to 230 million native speakers concentrated primarily in the Middle East, North Africa, the Horn of Africa, and Malta.[6] Tamazight and other Berber varieties are spoken in Morocco, Algeria, Libya, Tunisia, northern Mali, and northern Niger by about 25 to 35 million people."

"
Ancient Semitic-speaking peoples[edit]
Main article: Ancient Semitic-speaking peoples
There are several locations proposed as possible sites for prehistoric origins of Semitic-speaking peoples: Mesopotamia, The Levant, Mediterranean, the Arabian Peninsula, and North Africa.[18]"
Map showing the historical distribution of Semitic (yellow) and other Afro-Asiatic language speakers about 1000 - 2000 years ago.

Need to read up on your Languages my Frien

Narrated Jabir: that a Bedouin gave the pledge to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) for Islam, then he was afflicted by the sickness in Al-Madinah. So the Bedouin went to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) and said: "Take back my pledge." But the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) refused. Then the Bedouin left and came back and said: "Take back my pledge," and he refused. Then the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: "Al-Madinah is but like bellows, it expels its filth and purifies its good."

Grade : Sahih (Darussalam)
English reference : Vol. 1, Book 46, Hadith 3920 Arabic reference : Book 49, Hadith 4299

Apostasy in Islam does not include acts against Islam or conversion to another religion that is involuntary, forced or done as concealment out of fear of persecution or during war (Taqiyya or Kitman).[10][11]

But those who reject Faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of Faith,- never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray.

— Quran 3:90

Is there any sentence against them?


Contemporary Islamic Shafi`i jurists such as the Grand Mufti Ali Gomaa,[103][104] Shi'a jurists such as Grand Ayatollah Hossein-Ali Montazeri,[105] and some jurists, scholars and writers of other Islamic sects, have argued or issued fatwas that either the changing of religion is not punishable or is only punishable under restricted circumstances, but these minority opinions have not found broad acceptance among the majority of Islamic scholars.[4][106] However others have successfully argued that the majority view, in both the past and the present, wasn't a severe punishment for mere apostasy.[107]

Islamic scholars like the Grand Mufti of Cairo Ali Gomaa have stated that while God will punish apostates in the afterlife they should not be executed by human beings. He compares the apostasy condemned by the Hadiths as closer to high treason, namely a betrayal of the Muslim state and polity.[108][109]

Javed Ahmad Ghamidi writes that punishment for apostasy was part of divine punishment for only those who denied the truth even after clarification in its ultimate form by Muhammad (Itmaam-i-hujjat), hence, he considers it a time-bound command and no longer punishable.[110]

Tariq Ramadan states that given "the way the Prophet behaved with the people who left Islam (like Hishâm and 'Ayyash) or who converted to Christianity (such as Ubaydallah ibn Jahsh), it should be stated that one who changes her/his religion should not be killed". He further states that "there can be no compulsion or coercion in matters of faith not only because it is explicitly forbidden in the Qur'an but also because free conscious and choice and willing submission are foundational to the first pillar (declaration of faith) and essential to the very definition of Islam. Therefore, someone leaving Islam or converting to another religion must be free to do so and her/his choice must be respected."[111]




"This is an alternative belief heard increasingly within Islam: that religious freedom and the absence of compulsion in religion requires that individuals be allowed adopt a religion or to convert to another religion without legal penalty. Of course, whether a person who leaves Islam can be expected to be free of condemnation from their family and neighbors is a different matter.

One group promoting this belief is Sisters in Islam (SIS), "a group of Muslim professional women committed to promoting the rights of women within the framework of Islam." 2 They claim that the death penalty is not an appropriate response to apostasy:

The former Chief Justice of Pakistan, SA Rahman, has written that there is no reference to the death penalty in any of the 20 instances of apostasy mentioned in the Qur'an. 3

The quotation from Surah An-Nisa', 4:137, shown at the top of this essay, seems to imply that multiple, sequential apostasies are possible. That would not be possible if the person were executed after the first apostasy.


Muslims who support the death penalty for apostasy often base their belief partly on a hadith in which he said: "Kill whoever changes his religion." But this is a weak foundation because:

This hadith was only transmitted from Muhammad (pbuh) by one individual. It was not confirmed by a second person. According to Islamic law, this is insufficient basis on which to impose the death penalty.

The hadith is so generally worded that it would require the death penalty for a Christian or Jew who converted to Islam. This is obviously not the prophet's intent. The hadith is in need of further specification, which has not been documented.

Many scholars interpret this passage as referring only to instances of high treason. (e.g. declaring war on Islam, Muhammad (pbuh), God, etc.)

There is no historical record which indicates that Muhammad (pbuh) or any of his companions ever sentenced anyone to death for apostasy.

A number of Islamic scholars from past centuries, Ibrahim al-Naka'I, Sufyan al-Thawri, Shams al-Din al-Sarakhsi, Abul Walid al-Baji and Ibn Taymiyyah, have all held that apostasy is a serious sin, but not one that requires the death penalty. In modern times, Mahmud Shaltut, Sheikh of al-Azhar, and Dr Mohammed Sayed Tantawi have concurred.

Dr. Maher Hathout, author of "In Pursuit of Justice: The Jurisprudence of Human Rights in Islam," writes:
"We strongly oppose the state's use of coercion in regulating Islamic belief in such a manner, since faith is a matter of individual choice on which only God can adjudicate."

Referring to the two hadiths traditionally used to justify the death penalty, Hathout writes:

"...both of them contradict the Quran and other instances in which the Prophet did not compel anyone to embrace Islam, nor punish them if they recanted."

"In one incident, the Prophet pardoned Abdullah bin Sa'd, after he renounced Islam. Abdullah bin Sa'd was one of the people chosen by the Prophet as a scribe, to write down Qur'anic text as it was revealed to the Prophet. After spending some time with the Muslims in Madina, he recanted and returned to the religion of the Quraish. When he was brought before the Prophet, Osman bin Affan pleaded on his behalf, and the Prophet subsequently pardoned Abdullah bin Sa'd (Ibn Hisham).

"The problem with the argument for punishment for apostasy is that it cannot be applied in any Islamic state without giving rise to the potential for abuse by the state itself. Erroneously equating moral with political power in the determination of law has led to the political repression that we see in Islamic countries today. We must separate the right of God from that of man in defining freedom of religion as a legal right. The right of God refers only to the moral obligations of Muslims towards God, and is adjudicated by God. The state cannot act as a coercive moral authority, in effect representing God's Will on earth, because it does not have the right to do so. In the context of freedom of religion, the state's responsibility is to uphold and protect it as the right of all humans, as granted by God, without exercising moral judgment on the content and/or manner of exercising those religious beliefs." 4,5


"A section of People of the Book used a tactic to create doubt among the Muslims in the hope that some of them might thereby be beguiled into repudiating Islam. How could it be possible for non-Muslims to have enacted this plan to entice Muslims to believe one day and reject next, if death was the penalty for apostasy? ... The Qur’an does not rule to kill the apostates."

"Abdullah b.Ubayy b.Salul was the leader of the munafiqun (hypocrites). But Prophet (s) took no action against him. Prophet prayed for him and stayed at the grave until he was buried. Those fanatics among us must explain the reason for Prophet (s) not executing the known hypocrites like Abdullah b.Ubayy. Ubbay lived until death plotting to destroy Islam and Prophet knew it. He was not executed for apostasy. This suggests that apostasy law is not a divine law but interpolation by fanatics among us. ..."

"The Qur'an states:

'How shall God guide those who reject Faith after they accepted it and bore witness that the apostle was true and that clear signs had come unto them? But God guides not a people unjust. Of such the reward is that on them (rests) the curse of the God, of His Angels, and of all mankind;--In that will they dwell; nor will their penalty be lightened, nor respite be their lot;--except for those that repent (even) after that, make amends; For verily God is oft-forgiving, most merciful'. [3:86-89]"

"It is obvious from these verses that no punishment is to be inflicted by one man or another for apostasy. By no stretch of the imagination can the phrase, "curse of Allah," be interpreted to be a license to murder anyone who he considers to be an apostate. If any such commandment was prescribed it would have been clearly defined as all other punishments are in the Holy Qur'an." 6"

I am the only one using proof idiot.

 

[Falcon29]

So you respond with personal insults, then claim you're using proof(for what, you are not specifying at all), some of about some semitic argument with an Iranian that has no relevance to my posts. But, regarding apostate law, your hadith show nothing. The apostate law is clear in Islam, you can choose to leave Islam as a child, anything after that though, the punishment is death penalty. Doesn't mean every Muslim implements that, but that is the general rule of law.

So if you were trying to state otherwise, you are wrong. Your personal insults aren't going to change that.

The insult game you're trying to play discredits the notion you make that you hold the truth/facts and debate via logic/reason/evidence based approach. Anyone can play the insult game, but not everyone is childish like you.

Anyway, we can end it here, or you can continue responding, but I'm likely to put you on ignore as I only tolerate evidence based arguments, with mature people.

 

[EgyptianAmerican]

So you respond with personal insults, then claim you're using proof(for what, you are not specifying at all), some of about some semitic argument with an Iranian that has no relevance to my posts. But, regarding apostate law, your hadith show nothing. The apostate law is clear in Islam, you can choose to leave Islam as a child, anything after that though, the punishment is death penalty. Doesn't mean every Muslim implements that, but that is the general rule of law.

I don't claim, I showed you the proof. Are you blind?

If it has no revelance then why do you Quote that post too?


Where is that said? Why do you keep talking like an Autistic Idiot? Did you not read my Posts? Are you Blind?

READ ALL OF IT.

Narrated Jabir: that a Bedouin gave the pledge to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) for Islam, then he was afflicted by the sickness in Al-Madinah. So the Bedouin went to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) and said: "Take back my pledge." But the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) refused. Then the Bedouin left and came back and said: "Take back my pledge," and he refused. Then the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: "Al-Madinah is but like bellows, it expels its filth and purifies its good."

Grade : Sahih (Darussalam)
English reference : Vol. 1, Book 46, Hadith 3920 Arabic reference : Book 49, Hadith 4299

Apostasy in Islam does not include acts against Islam or conversion to another religion that is involuntary, forced or done as concealment out of fear of persecution or during war (Taqiyya or Kitman).[10][11]

But those who reject Faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of Faith,- never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray.

— Quran 3:90

Is there any sentence against them?


Contemporary Islamic Shafi`i jurists such as the Grand Mufti Ali Gomaa,[103][104] Shi'a jurists such as Grand Ayatollah Hossein-Ali Montazeri,[105] and some jurists, scholars and writers of other Islamic sects, have argued or issued fatwas that either the changing of religion is not punishable or is only punishable under restricted circumstances, but these minority opinions have not found broad acceptance among the majority of Islamic scholars.[4][106] However others have successfully argued that the majority view, in both the past and the present, wasn't a severe punishment for mere apostasy.[107]

Islamic scholars like the Grand Mufti of Cairo Ali Gomaa have stated that while God will punish apostates in the afterlife they should not be executed by human beings. He compares the apostasy condemned by the Hadiths as closer to high treason, namely a betrayal of the Muslim state and polity.[108][109]

Javed Ahmad Ghamidi writes that punishment for apostasy was part of divine punishment for only those who denied the truth even after clarification in its ultimate form by Muhammad (Itmaam-i-hujjat), hence, he considers it a time-bound command and no longer punishable.[110]

Tariq Ramadan states that given "the way the Prophet behaved with the people who left Islam (like Hishâm and 'Ayyash) or who converted to Christianity (such as Ubaydallah ibn Jahsh), it should be stated that one who changes her/his religion should not be killed". He further states that "there can be no compulsion or coercion in matters of faith not only because it is explicitly forbidden in the Qur'an but also because free conscious and choice and willing submission are foundational to the first pillar (declaration of faith) and essential to the very definition of Islam. Therefore, someone leaving Islam or converting to another religion must be free to do so and her/his choice must be respected."[111]




"This is an alternative belief heard increasingly within Islam: that religious freedom and the absence of compulsion in religion requires that individuals be allowed adopt a religion or to convert to another religion without legal penalty. Of course, whether a person who leaves Islam can be expected to be free of condemnation from their family and neighbors is a different matter.

One group promoting this belief is Sisters in Islam (SIS), "a group of Muslim professional women committed to promoting the rights of women within the framework of Islam." 2 They claim that the death penalty is not an appropriate response to apostasy:

The former Chief Justice of Pakistan, SA Rahman, has written that there is no reference to the death penalty in any of the 20 instances of apostasy mentioned in the Qur'an. 3

The quotation from Surah An-Nisa', 4:137, shown at the top of this essay, seems to imply that multiple, sequential apostasies are possible. That would not be possible if the person were executed after the first apostasy.


Muslims who support the death penalty for apostasy often base their belief partly on a hadith in which he said: "Kill whoever changes his religion." But this is a weak foundation because:

This hadith was only transmitted from Muhammad (pbuh) by one individual. It was not confirmed by a second person. According to Islamic law, this is insufficient basis on which to impose the death penalty.

The hadith is so generally worded that it would require the death penalty for a Christian or Jew who converted to Islam. This is obviously not the prophet's intent. The hadith is in need of further specification, which has not been documented.

Many scholars interpret this passage as referring only to instances of high treason. (e.g. declaring war on Islam, Muhammad (pbuh), God, etc.)

There is no historical record which indicates that Muhammad (pbuh) or any of his companions ever sentenced anyone to death for apostasy.

A number of Islamic scholars from past centuries, Ibrahim al-Naka'I, Sufyan al-Thawri, Shams al-Din al-Sarakhsi, Abul Walid al-Baji and Ibn Taymiyyah, have all held that apostasy is a serious sin, but not one that requires the death penalty. In modern times, Mahmud Shaltut, Sheikh of al-Azhar, and Dr Mohammed Sayed Tantawi have concurred.

Dr. Maher Hathout, author of "In Pursuit of Justice: The Jurisprudence of Human Rights in Islam," writes:
"We strongly oppose the state's use of coercion in regulating Islamic belief in such a manner, since faith is a matter of individual choice on which only God can adjudicate."

Referring to the two hadiths traditionally used to justify the death penalty, Hathout writes:

"...both of them contradict the Quran and other instances in which the Prophet did not compel anyone to embrace Islam, nor punish them if they recanted."

"In one incident, the Prophet pardoned Abdullah bin Sa'd, after he renounced Islam. Abdullah bin Sa'd was one of the people chosen by the Prophet as a scribe, to write down Qur'anic text as it was revealed to the Prophet. After spending some time with the Muslims in Madina, he recanted and returned to the religion of the Quraish. When he was brought before the Prophet, Osman bin Affan pleaded on his behalf, and the Prophet subsequently pardoned Abdullah bin Sa'd (Ibn Hisham).

"The problem with the argument for punishment for apostasy is that it cannot be applied in any Islamic state without giving rise to the potential for abuse by the state itself. Erroneously equating moral with political power in the determination of law has led to the political repression that we see in Islamic countries today. We must separate the right of God from that of man in defining freedom of religion as a legal right. The right of God refers only to the moral obligations of Muslims towards God, and is adjudicated by God. The state cannot act as a coercive moral authority, in effect representing God's Will on earth, because it does not have the right to do so. In the context of freedom of religion, the state's responsibility is to uphold and protect it as the right of all humans, as granted by God, without exercising moral judgment on the content and/or manner of exercising those religious beliefs." 4,5


"A section of People of the Book used a tactic to create doubt among the Muslims in the hope that some of them might thereby be beguiled into repudiating Islam. How could it be possible for non-Muslims to have enacted this plan to entice Muslims to believe one day and reject next, if death was the penalty for apostasy? ... The Qur’an does not rule to kill the apostates."

"Abdullah b.Ubayy b.Salul was the leader of the munafiqun (hypocrites). But Prophet (s) took no action against him. Prophet prayed for him and stayed at the grave until he was buried. Those fanatics among us must explain the reason for Prophet (s) not executing the known hypocrites like Abdullah b.Ubayy. Ubbay lived until death plotting to destroy Islam and Prophet knew it. He was not executed for apostasy. This suggests that apostasy law is not a divine law but interpolation by fanatics among us. ..."

"The Qur'an states:

'How shall God guide those who reject Faith after they accepted it and bore witness that the apostle was true and that clear signs had come unto them? But God guides not a people unjust. Of such the reward is that on them (rests) the curse of the God, of His Angels, and of all mankind;--In that will they dwell; nor will their penalty be lightened, nor respite be their lot;--except for those that repent (even) after that, make amends; For verily God is oft-forgiving, most merciful'. [3:86-89]"

"It is obvious from these verses that no punishment is to be inflicted by one man or another for apostasy. By no stretch of the imagination can the phrase, "curse of Allah," be interpreted to be a license to murder anyone who he considers to be an apostate. If any such commandment was prescribed it would have been clearly defined as all other punishments are in the Holy Qur'an." 6"

So if you were trying to state otherwise, you are wrong. Your personal insults aren't going to change that.

The insult game you're trying to play discredits the notion you make that you hold the truth/facts and debate via logic/reason/evidence based approach. Anyone can play the insult game, but not everyone is childish like you.

I insult you because YOU ARE BLIND! Can YOU NOT SEE MY PROOF!

evidence based arguments

SAYS THE PERSON WITH NO PROOF!

 

[Falcon29]

Firstly, you need to explain specifically what your copy paste long articles are intended for. 'Take a pledge, take a pledge, take a pledge',... nobody understands what this random hadith is supposed to pertain to. As for the argument that apostasy law can only be implemented in an Islamic state, that is someones personal opinion, and I'm not reading this random things that are long for you.

Here is ruling on apostasy:

The ruling of execution because of a word that somebody utters is what the Muslim scholars call al-riddah (apostasy). What is apostasy and what constitutes apostasy? What is the ruling on the apostate (al-murtadd)?

1 – Riddah (apostasy) refers to when a Muslim becomes a disbeliever by saying a clear statement to that effect, or by uttering words which imply that (i.e., which imply kufr or disbelief), or he does something that implies that (i.e., an action which implies kufr or disbelief).

2 – What constitutes apostasy

The matters which constitute apostasy are divided into four categories:

(a) Apostasy in beliefs, such as associating others with Allaah, denying Him, or denying an attribute which is proven to be one of His attributes, or by affirming that Allaah has a son. Whoever believes that is an apostate and a disbeliever.

(b) Apostasy in words, such as insulting Allaah or the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

(c) Apostasy in actions, such as throwing the Qur’an into a filthy place, because doing that shows disrespect towards the words of Allaah, so it is a sign that one does not believe. Other such actions include prostrating to an idol or to the sun or moon.

(d) Apostasy by omission, such as not doing any of the rituals of Islam, or turning away from following it altogether.

3 – What is the ruling on the apostate?

If a Muslim apostatizes and meets the conditions of apostasy – i.e., he is of sound mind, an adult and does that of his own free will – then his blood may be shed with impunity. He is to be executed by the Muslim ruler or by his deputy – such as the qaadi or judge, and he is not to not be washed (after death, in preparation for burial), the funeral prayer is not to be offered for him and he is not to be buried with the Muslims.

The evidence that the apostate is to be executed is the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 2794). What is meant by religion here is Islam (i.e., whoever changes from Islam to another religion).

https://islamqa.info/en/20327

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Examples of apostate position in Sahih Hadith:

Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 84, Number 58:

Narrated Abu Burda: (Bukhari (84:58)Abu Musa said, "I came to the Prophet along with two men (from the tribe) of Ash'ariyin, one on my right and the other on my left, while Allah's Apostle was brushing his teeth (with a Siwak), and both men asked him for some employment. The Prophet said, 'O Abu Musa (O 'Abdullah bin Qais!).' I said, 'By Him Who sent you with the Truth, these two men did not tell me what was in their hearts and I did not feel (realize) that they were seeking employment.' As if I were looking now at his Siwak being drawn to a corner under his lips, and he said, 'We never (or, we do not) appoint for our affairs anyone who seeks to be employed. But O Abu Musa! (or 'Abdullah bin Qais!) Go to Yemen.'" The Prophet then sent Mu'adh bin Jabal after him and when Mu'adh reached him, he spread out a cushion for him and requested him to get down (and sit on the cushion). Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Muisa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers and one of us said, 'I pray and sleep, and I hope that Allah will reward me for my sleep as well as for my prayers.'"

[It should be noted that this incident took place during the life of the Prophet. At that time Abu Musa represented the Prophet as governor and Muadh as vice-governor. If their action had not been based on the decision of God and His Messenger, surely the Prophet would have objected.]

Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 84, Number 59:

Narrated Abu Huraira: When the Prophet died and Abu Bakr became his successor and some of the Arabs reverted to disbelief, 'Umar said, "O Abu Bakr! How can you fight these people although Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, 'and whoever said, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah', Allah will save his property and his life from me, unless (he does something for which he receives legal punishment) justly, and his account will be with Allah?' "Abu Bakr said, "By Allah! I will fight whoever differentiates between prayers and Zakat as Zakat is the right to be taken from property (according to Allah's Orders). By Allah! If they refused to pay me even a kid they used to pay to Allah's Apostle, I would fight with them for withholding it." 'Umar said, "By Allah: It was nothing, but I noticed that Allah opened Abu Bakr's chest towards the decision to fight, therefore I realized that his decision was right."

Bukhari (83:37)

"Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas), (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse, and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate."

Bukhari (52:260):

"...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.'" Note that there is no distinction as to how that Muslim came to be a Muslim.

Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:

Narrated 'Ikrima: Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the [words of] Allah's Apostle, “Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him”.

Bukhari (89:271): A man who embraces Islam, then reverts to Judaism is to be killed according to "the verdict of Allah and his apostle."

Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 84, Number 64:

Narrated 'Ali: Whenever I tell you a narration from Allah's Apostle, by Allah, I would rather fall down from the sky than ascribe a false statement to him, but if I tell you something between me and you (not a Hadith) then it was indeed a trick (i.e., I may say things just to cheat my enemy). No doubt I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, where-ever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection."

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The notion that the ruling is fair, because of reaching a mature age(where you can actually question your beliefs), is an admission that there is no free will in the religion. And it's only acceptable to leave once one is a child, ie when they aren't developed enough to make that judgement.

So once again, you're misinformed of your own religion. Now my thread was about what a significant transition would occur in the Muslim world if Saudi's 'treasure' was put at test, it was not anti- or pro Islam, it was merely observational writeup. Which you turned into religious discussion. And I'm simply responding.

My opinion is that Islam needs reform, and Muslim community also needs it. That's not 'bigotry' stupid.

 

[EgyptianAmerican]

Hadiths can't be Trusted, but the Quran can. What does the Quran say?

Just to give you an example on how contradictory Hadiths can be,


Narrated Jabir: that a Bedouin gave the pledge to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) for Islam, then he was afflicted by the sickness in Al-Madinah. So the Bedouin went to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) and said: "Take back my pledge." But the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) refused. Then the Bedouin left and came back and said: "Take back my pledge," and he refused. Then the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: "Al-Madinah is but like bellows, it expels its filth and purifies its good."

Sahih (Darussalam)
English reference : Vol. 1, Book 46, Hadith 3920 Arabic reference : Book 49, Hadith 4299



You cannot guide those you would like to but God guides those He wills. He has best knowledge of the guided.” (Holy Quran/28: 56)

How do these verses not support Religious freedom?

“God does not forbid you from being good to those who have not fought you in the religion or driven you from your homes, or from being just towards them. God loves those who are just.” (Surat al-Mumtahana, 8)

“We have appointed a law and a practice for every one of you. Had God willed, He would have made you a single community, but He wanted to test you regarding what has come to you. So compete with each other in doing good. Every one of you will return to God and He will inform you regarding the things about which you differed.” (Surat al-Ma’ida, 48)


If you follow these Verses then they also Apply with Apostates.

But those who reject Faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of Faith,- never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray.

— Quran 3:90

Where does it say execute them?


'How shall God guide those who reject Faith after they accepted it and bore witness that the apostle was true and that clear signs had come unto them? But God guides not a people unjust. Of such the reward is that on them (rests) the curse of the God, of His Angels, and of all mankind;--In that will they dwell; nor will their penalty be lightened, nor respite be their lot;--except for those that repent (even) after that, make amends; For verily God is oft-forgiving, most merciful'. [3:86-89]"

"It is obvious from these verses that no punishment is to be inflicted by one man or another for apostasy. By no stretch of the imagination can the phrase, "curse of Allah," be interpreted to be a license to murder anyone who he considers to be an apostate. If any such commandment was prescribed it would have been clearly defined as all other punishments are in the Holy Qur'an."

Tariq Ramadan states that given "the way the Prophet behaved with the people who left Islam (like Hishâm and 'Ayyash) or who converted to Christianity (such as Ubaydallah ibn Jahsh), it should be stated that one who changes her/his religion should not be killed". He further states that "there can be no compulsion or coercion in matters of faith not only because it is explicitly forbidden in the Qur'an but also because free conscious and choice and willing submission are foundational to the first pillar (declaration of faith) and essential to the very definition of Islam. Therefore, someone leaving Islam or converting to another religion must be free to do so and her/his choice must be respected."[111]


"...both of them contradict the Quran and other instances in which the Prophet did not compel anyone to embrace Islam, nor punish them if they recanted."

"In one incident, the Prophet pardoned Abdullah bin Sa'd, after he renounced Islam. Abdullah bin Sa'd was one of the people chosen by the Prophet as a scribe, to write down Qur'anic text as it was revealed to the Prophet. After spending some time with the Muslims in Madina, he recanted and returned to the religion of the Quraish. When he was brought before the Prophet, Osman bin Affan pleaded on his behalf, and the Prophet subsequently pardoned Abdullah bin Sa'd (Ibn Hisham).

"The problem with the argument for punishment for apostasy is that it cannot be applied in any Islamic state without giving rise to the potential for abuse by the state itself. Erroneously equating moral with political power in the determination of law has led to the political repression that we see in Islamic countries today. We must separate the right of God from that of man in defining freedom of religion as a legal right. The right of God refers only to the moral obligations of Muslims towards God, and is adjudicated by God. The state cannot act as a coercive moral authority, in effect representing God's Will on earth, because it does not have the right to do so. In the context of freedom of religion, the state's responsibility is to uphold and protect it as the right of all humans, as granted by God, without exercising moral judgment on the content and/or manner of exercising those religious beliefs." 4,5


Source: https://defence.pk/threads/saudi-arabias-treasure.458414/page-5#ixzz4OdJfxgl4



"If we turn to the Qur`an and authentic ahadith after freeing ourselves from the extraneous influences of the type I have mentioned above, the situation becomes crystal clear: there is no legal punishment for apostasy in Islam, whether death or any other. The Qur`an and authentic ahadith teach us to treat apostates like other kuffar, whose treatment varies from kindness to killing depending on the circumstances and on the degree of hostility they show towards Islam and Muslims. I will insha allah present evidence for this view in two parts. In this first part, I will insha allah show that the death penalty or any other legal punishment for apostasy is contrary to the Qur`an. And in the second part I examine the ahadith about apostasy and show with God’s permission that those ahadith that prescribe the death penalty do not come from the mouth of our and God’s beloved Prophet (may God bless and honor him evermore)."
- http://www.islamicperspectives.com/apostasy1.htm

WHAT IS APOSTASY?



Before discussing the question of punishment of apostasy, it is well to define what apostasy is.



A person commits apostasy (irtidad) or becomes an apostate (murtadd) if he describes himself a Muslim and then at a later time takes one of the following actions in a public way:



1) Converts to another religion, e.g. becomes a Christian or Buddhist or Baha`i etc.

2) Rejects a part of the Qur`an after recognizing it to be a part of the Qur`an. For example, all those “Muslims” who opposed the Shari‘ah-based arbitration in family and business disputes in Ontario[1] have become apostates if they knew well that a great part of the Shari‘ah that they opposed is based on the Qur`an. May Allah guide them back to Islam.


3) In some cases when the whole ummah agrees that a certain interpretation of some Qur`anic verses or ahadith is unacceptable, then the person who holds such an interpretation may become an apostate by a decision of the ummah. For example, Ahmadis insist on being called Muslims and they indeed profess and practice much of Islam like most Sunni Muslims. But they believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadiyan in the British colonial India was a prophet and in order to prepare room for this belief they interpret khatm nubuwwah in a way different from the rest of the ummah.. The ummah has rejected their interpretation of khatm nubuwwah and Mirza’s claims for which this interpretation is devised. The ummah has also declared this group as non-Muslims and banned their entry into Makkah. Finally, the falsehood of Mirza’s claims has been proved by history[2]. Consequently, all converts from Islam to Ahmadism are apostates.



Normally, however, having an interpretation of a part of the Qur`an or Hadith different from the one held by other Muslims does not result in apostasy. For example, if the people who rejected Shari‘ah-based arbitration in Ontario would have said that the way rules of Shari‘ah are interpreted and applied is not faithful to the teachings of God and his Messenger and argued for more discussion about correcting the interpretation and the application before adopting Shari‘ah-based arbitration, they would not have committed apostasy. But they opposed Shari‘ah as such and for this reason they should be considered apostates.



An apostate is different from a hypocrite (munafiq). A hypocrite is a person who is outwardly willing to say/do what a Muslim says/does but in his heart has decided not to believe in Islam. An apostate, in contrast, is someone who openly and knowingly does or says something that makes him a non-Muslim after he had called himself a Muslim.



It also needs to be pointed out that we should distinguish apostasy from a state of kufr that many Muslims may privately pass through during the process of their growth towards the state of iman. In most Muslim families we have some members who express disbelief about the existence of God or about divine revelations or about the hereafter. Muslims have wisely and correctly tolerated such disbelief because they recognize that the way to iman is not always smooth and may pass through doubts and confusion (cf. Qur`an 6:76-79, 93:7). However, if a Muslim expresses his disbelief in the form of a declared position and insists on its truth publicly, then he will be considered an apostate.


THE ABSENCE FROM THE QUR`AN OF ANY PENALTY FOR APOSTASY


It is a significant fact that the Book of God does not prescribe any punishment for apostasy. Many Muslims would immediately say, The Qur`an does not tell us everything. We need to go to the Hadith to find guidance on matters not touched by the Qur`an. But while this is true of matters of detail, this is not true of fundamental issues. God knew that while the Qur`an would be preserved faithfully, the authenticity of ahadith will remain subject to doubts in most cases. Therefore, he would make sure that all the basic teachings would be included in the Qur`an while leaving some details to ahadith so that the size of the Qur`anic text remains manageable for memorization. Looked in this way the absence in the Qur`an of any punishment for apostasy becomes very significant.


The punishment for apostasy is not a detail that we can expect God to leave for ahadith, especially if that punishment is death, since taking the life of a person, if done without a just cause, is regarded by the Qur`an as tantamount to killing all human beings (5:32). Even lesser penalties for theft (cutting of hands, 5:38), illicit sexual intercourse (100 lashes, 24:2), and unsubstantiated accusation of adultery (80 lashes, 24.4) were not considered by God as matters of details to be left to the ahadith. Therefore there is no reason why God would consider the more serious penalty of death for a more serious sin of apostasy as a matter of detail to be left to ahadith.


It is also significant that the Qur`an refers to apostasy several times (2:217, 3:86-90, 4:137, 9:66, 9:74, 16:106-109, 4:88-91, 47:25-27) and yet does not prescribe any punishment for it. Had the Qur`an not mentioned apostasy at all, we could have perhaps argued that there was no occasion for the Qur`anic revelation to deal with this subject and it was therefore left for the Holy Prophet to deal with. It may also be noted that almost all the verses that refer to apostasy are found in surahs said to be belonging to the Madinan period when the Islamic state had been established and penalties for crimes could be prescribed and applied. Only 16:106-109 appears in a surah identified as Makkan.


It is thus a natural conclusion to draw that the absence of any legal penalty for apostasy in the Qur`an means that God never intended any such penalty to become part of Islamic Shari‘ah.


THE DEATH PENALTY FOR APOSTASY CONFLICTS WITH THE QUR`AN

The evidence against any legally prescribed penalty for apostasy in Islam does not rest only on the fact that the Qur`an does not prescribe any such penalty while referring to the subject of apostasy many times. We can go further and state that:


a) There is no mandatory death penalty in the Qur`an for any crime.

b) The death penalty for apostasy in fact conflicts with the Qur`an.

The truth of the above statements can be seen by examining the verses: 5:32-33, 45, 2:178 and 4:88-91.

Qur`an 5:32-33, 45, 2:178



In 5:32, after relating the story of the murder of Habil by his brother Qabil, God says:



On that account We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole humanity: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the whole humanity. Then although there came to them Our Messengers with clear (guidance), yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. (5:32)

In the context of an emphasis on preserving the life of each and every individual the above verse mentions only two crimes for which a person can be killed:



1) Murdering another human being;

2) Spreading mischief (fasad) in the land.



Nowhere else the Qur`an mentions any other crime for which the death penalty is considered. There are, of course, verses that mention killing during a war in the way of God. But that is different from killing as a penalty for a crime. Moreover, in the Qur`anic understanding the objective of even killing in a war is to stop or punish crimes similar to the two mentioned in the above verse -- violence and mischief -- when committed in an organized way by a tribe or nation ((2:191-193, 2:217, 4:88-91 etc)).



Hence the above-mentioned two crimes exhaust all possible cases for which the Qur`an considers the death penalty[3]. And in both of these cases, the death penalty is not mandatory in the Qur`an.



In case of spreading mischief in the land, the Qur`an says in the next verse:



The recompense for those who wage war against God and his Messenger[4], and strive with might and main for mischief through the land[5] is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and for them in the hereafter is a severe punishment. (5:33)

There is no prescribed mandatory death penalty here. Even when the person wages war against God and his Messenger along with striving in the land for mischief, death is considered only one of several options, starting from exile. If such is the case with persons who wage war against God and his Messenger and actively seek to spread mischief in the land, then the question of death as a prescribed penalty for an apostate who continues to lead a peaceful life after his sin of apostasy can hardly arise within a Qur`anic perspective.

A little later in the same surah, al-Ma`idah, the Qur`an deals with the other crime – murdering another human being -- for which death penalty can be applied:

And We ordained for them in [the Torah]: “Person for person, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal.” But if anyone remits the retaliation as charity, it shall be an expiation for him. And whoever does not judge by what God has sent down, such are the transgressors (zalimun)[6]. (5:45)

The above verse refers to what God commanded the Jews through the Torah, but in the following verse the Qur`an gives a more balanced law to the Muslims:

O you who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the slain, the free for the free, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. But if one (who killed) is forgiven by the brother of (the one killed) against ransom, there should be follow up in fairness and payment to the heir in handsome gratitude. This is a concession from your Lord and a mercy (from him). Then whoever exceeds the limit (of the ransom agreement) after this he shall have a painful chastisement. (2:178)

Again there is no mandatory death penalty. If the relatives of the murdered person accept ransom, the death penalty can be removed.

Hence: a) there is no mandatory death penalty in the Qur`an for any crime; and b) since the Qur`an does not prescribe the death penalty even for crimes more serious than simple apostasy, death penalty for apostasy as such has no place within the Qur`anic perspective.



Qur`an 4:88-91



The four verses, 4:88-91, when carefully examined, also show that the Qur`anic perspective conflicts with the death penalty for apostasy. The first two verses state:





Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two groups regarding the hypocrites? God has cast them backward (arkasa) because of what they have earned. Do you want to guide him whom God has made to go astray? And he whom God has made to go astray, you will not find for him any way. They wish that you reject faith as they have done, so that you all become the same. So take not protectors/friends from them till they emigrate in the way of God. But if they turn away, seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither protectors/friends from them nor helpers. (4:88-89)

This passage begins by talking about hypocrites, that is, people who had declared themselves Muslims but in their hearts had decided not to believe in the teachings of Islam. The demand that they should do hijrah fi sabil allah (emigrate for the sake of God) shows that they are not the hypocrites of Madinah but are living among non-Muslims in Makkah and possibly elsewhere. Verse 98 of the same surah shows that these people were not doing hijrah despite the fact that they were able to. The reason for their not doing hijrah was their hypocrisy. Makkan non-believers who had persecuted Muslims for years, would not have tolerated in their midst any true Muslims. They would have accepted among them only those “Muslims” who had stopped taking their “islam” seriously and felt more comfortable among non-believers, hostile to Islam, than among Muslims. These hypocrites pretended to be Muslims because they wanted to be secure from both sides (see 4:91). And Makkan non-believers did not force them to publicly renounce their “islam” because they found them useful for gathering information about Muslims or for some other subversive actions against the ummah.



In order to defeat these hypocrites in their game and force them to clearly choose between Islam and kufr, God commanded them to do hijrah. Their obedience to this command meant that they had chosen Islam and their disobedience meant that they had chosen kufr. Those who chose kufr in this way became apostates, since previously they called themselves Muslims. Thus the verses are a source of guidance for us regarding the way the apostates are to be treated.



At first sight the words “seize them and kill them wherever you find them” would suggest that they are to be killed. But this is quickly seen to be wrong if we read the next two verses:



Except those who join a group between you and whom there is a (peace-) treaty or those who approach you with their hearts restraining them from fighting you or fighting their own people. Had God willed he would have given them power over you and they would have fought you. So if they withdraw from you and do not fight you but give you (guarantees of) peace, then God has opened no way for you against them.



You will find others that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people. Every time they are sent back to temptation they give in to it. If they do not withdraw from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace, nor restrain their hands, seize them and kill them, wherever you find them. In their case We have provided you with a clear warrant against them. (4:90-91).

These verses clarify the command “seize them and kill them”. The apostates who rejected Islam by failing to emigrate as commanded by God are divided into three categories:



1) Those who ally themselves with a group with whom Muslims have a peace treaty;

2) Those who want to keep neutrality, committing themselves to peace with both the Muslims and their own people who had not accepted Islam;

3) Those who provide no real guarantee of peace to Muslims and by all indications ally themselves with non-believers engaged in hostilities towards Islam.



The first two types of apostates are to be left in peace while the third one is to be treated like any non-believers in a state of war: they are to be seized and killed wherever they are found. Notice that the Qur`an uses the words “God has opened no way for you against them” in connection with the apostates of the first two types. This means that the Qur`an actually prohibits killing those apostates who want to live in peaceful terms with the Muslims.



Thus according to the Qur`an the apostates are to be treated like other kuffar: If they want to live in peace with the Muslims, they are to be left in peace and if they assume a hostile attitude, then they are to be treated accordingly.



Additional Evidence



There are some other Qur`anic verses that, although not as conclusive as those discussed above, nevertheless reveal a perspective that is at odds with a legal penalty for apostasy. Thus the Qur`an is very emphatic that victory belongs to truth. It says:

“Truth has come and falsehood has vanished. Surely, falsehood was bound to vanish” (17:81)

“Nay, We fling the truth against falsehood and it destroys it and behold it then vanishes” (21:18)

In other passages it predicts the victory of Islam because it is the religion of truth:

He it is who has sent his Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth that he may make it prevail over all (corrupted expressions of) religion (48:28; see also 9:32-33, 61:8-9).

These verses show that the Qur`an is founded on a complete confidence in the validity of the following three principles:



1. Truth is bound to win over falsehood.

2. Islam is founded on truth.

3. Islam will therefore prevail.



Within this perspective Islam has no need for keeping people under its fold at pain of death. Such measures befit those systems that are essentially built on falsehood because that is the only way their followers can hope to slow down their inevitable march to defeat and disappearance. For a “religion of truth” it is more advantageous if people are free to examine ideas and then choose the religion or ideology or system they want. This is why the Qur`an establishes the following famous principle:



There is no compulsion in religion. Right has become distinct from wrong. So whoever rejects evil and puts faith in God has grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold that never breaks. And God is hearing, knowing. (2:256)

This verse is usually understood to mean that people cannot be compelled to become Muslims but they can be compelled to stay Muslims. But the words, “no compulsion in religion” are very general. They should apply equally to entering or leaving any religion, including Islam. One may try to argue against this general understanding of the verse as follows:



A person cannot be compelled to enter Islam but a person who is a Muslim is subject to the laws of Islam and those laws require death for leaving Islam.



This argument would have had force only if we are able to establish that the Qur`an prescribes the death penalty for apostasy like it prescribes penalties for theft, zina` etc. But in the absence of any such prescription, we must take the words “no compulsion in religion” in their general sense and understand them to be applicable for both entering and leaving Islam7].



Moreover, apostasy is a move from islam to kufr. But what if we cannot establish the islam of a person? For example, consider a person born in a Muslim family who at one point described himself as a Muslim according to custom but he never really believed in Islam. If he then renounces Islam, is he really moving from islam to kufr? Is he really bound by the laws of Islam considering that he never really made a choice to live by them?



From the confident conviction that the message of the Qur`an is based on truth and therefore will prevail, comes also the Qur`anic condemnation of fitnah, persecuting people for their religion, which is described as worse than killing in battle:

And fight in the way of God those who fight you but do not transgress due limits … al-fitnah is worse than killing (in battle). … Fight them till there is no fitnah and the religion is for God (alone) (2:191-193; see also 2:217).

These verses refer to the fighting that the non-believers were waging against the Prophet and his followers. This fighting was part of their fitnah or persecution of Muslims, aimed at suppressing the Islamic movement. The verses commanded the Muslims to fight back because fitnah is worse than killing in battle and so they should choose the lesser of the two evils. The fighting should continue till there is no more fitnah and the religion is for God. The words “the religion is for God (alone)” are closely related to “there is no more fitnah” and mean that the choice of religion is a matter between a person and God and not to be determined by force. Contrary to what some commentators suggest the words do not mean, “till everyone accepts Islam” because it is definitely known that the Prophet made peace with many tribes even though they had not accepted Islam (see e.g. 4:90 discussed earlier) and because the Qur`an explicitly states that when the non-believing opponents incline to peace the Prophet should do the same (8:61).



That the death penalty for apostasy conflicts with the Qur`anic perspective is also shown by those verses in which it is stated that the Messenger came not as a watcher over people but only as one who clearly declares the truth: 5:92, 99, 13:40, 16:35, 82, 24:54, 29:18, 36:17, 42:48, 64:12. Significantly, the first of these verses is addressed to the believers, since it is after explicitly addressing the believers and giving to them some laws (5:90-91) that the verse says:

“And obey God and obey the Messenger and beware (and fear God). Then if you turn away, know that our Messenger’s duty is to simply convey (the message) clearly. (5:92)

The Qur`an then continues addressing believers, giving some further regulations, and then says again:

On our Messenger there is no obligation but conveying (the message). And God knows what you reveal and what you conceal (5:99)

In 5:92 and 99 the Muslims are not told that if you turn away then death penalty awaits you but rather they are told that the Messenger has done his duty by conveying the message to you and now it is up to you whether you want to stay faithful to him or whether you want to turn away from him8].



DEALING WITH APOSTASY



As observed above the Qur`an expects us to deal with apostates like other kuffar. Therefore the Qur`anic guidance for dealing with the apostates is essentially the same as its guidance for dealing with other kuffar. Briefly, this guidance is that we should treat them according to the degree of friendship or hostility they show to Islam and Muslims. To translate this into more specific guidance we can divide apostates in three categories and see how each category is to be treated:



1) An apostate leaves Islam because of ignorance of Islam or some confusion that leads him to think that his new religion or way is truer and better. Such a person will be willing to listen to the Muslims if they want to show him that he has made a mistake. The Muslims should treat him kindly and argue with him in the best possible way. (60:8, 16:125). But Muslims should be careful not to show him more kindness than they show to other Muslims, for, otherwise the apostate may be encouraged to stay an apostate.



2) An apostate leaves Islam, not out of a belief that he is moving to something truer and better, but to satisfy some of his worldly desires, e. g., to get greater importance or more comfortable life or greater acceptance of his lifestyle such as homosexual lifestyle. A sign of such an apostate is that he shows little inclination to listen to any reasoning. If such an apostate does not engage in any hostile activity against Islam and Muslims, he should not be subjected to any active hostility (4:90). But since he has clearly preferred kufr over iman the following commandment of God will apply:




O you who believe! Do not take for friends and allies (even) your fathers and your brothers if they love disbelief more than faith: if any of you do so, they are the wrong doers. (9:23)

According to some traditions “this ayah was revealed concerning those nine men who after apostasy went to Makkah”. (Panipati, Tafsir Mazhari)



Beyond avoiding friendship and alliance with apostates of this second type, the Muslims can impose boycott against them, since such boycott was imposed by the Prophet on the three Companions mentioned in 9:118. These three Companions did not commit apostasy but simply failed to join the Muslims in jihad without a good reason.



3) The third type of apostate is one who leaves Islam and then engages in hostile actions against Islam and Muslims, e.g. knowingly engages in propaganda against Islam and Muslims blatantly ignoring facts that he is expected to know well, passes secrets to the enemy, takes part in fighting against the Muslims. Such an apostate can be punished by anything from exile to death.



And God knows better!

- http://www.islamicperspectives.com/apostasy1.htm



Make ye no excuses: ye have rejected Faith after ye had accepted it. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you, for that they are in sin.

— Quran 9:66
He who disbelieves in Allah after his having believed, not he who is compelled while his heart is at rest on account of faith, but he who opens (his) breast to disbelief-- on these is the wrath of Allah, and they shall have a grievous chastisement.

— Quran 16:106
Other Qur'anic verses[33] refer to apostasy. The Quran reprimands apostasy in Islam, and appears to suggest that it deserves coercion and severe punishment and that apostates are damned.[34] However, there is no mention of any specific corporal punishment for apostates to which they are to be subjected in this world,[35][36][37] nor do Qur'anic verses refer, whether explicitly or implicitly, to the need to force an apostate to return to Islam or to kill him if he refuses to do so.[38]


Once again you have been proven wrong and showed you no little to nothing about Islam. Next time Read the Quran you ninwit. Islam does not need to be reformed.