What's new

Saudi Arabia Announces "Vision 2030"

you can not really say I am not part of a culture when you are part of that culture. There should be one set of rules and only one set of rules... but businesses are run from 4 pm to 12 am... even then there is an arrogance which really is an issue. The only thing missing in this plan was one year of compulsory military service to toughen up the nation and help free the next generations from the fixation of foreign labourers

more like 8 am.... if it was up to them

Night owls due to weather. Especially during the summer. Southern Europe, Latin America, most of the Muslim world etc. have a similar pattern during the day. In fact all places where warm weather dominates are like that. I personally would not change it for anything.

Try doing physical labour in the middle of July in Makkah for instance in 45-50 celsius heat under a burning sun. Good luck with that one, lol.

8 am.:lol: Good one.:rofl::tup:

First perfectly in the context of Saudi Arabians and Arabs (coffee originating in Arabia (Yemen) )





Owls are great animals.

The rare Arabian owl (Otus Pamelae):



Great page:

http://www.birdsofsaudiarabia.com

Yes, I would love the introduction of compulsory military service. UAE introduced it 2 years ago. I hope that it happens. Most Arab countries have it or at least had it not long ago.

Saudis do demand higher salaries but most of them tend to be target drives rather than time driven..They will aggressively pursue the work assigned to them but they don't like to be put in bounds of typical corporate culture. Saudis have their own way of doing work..for example..with few clients where purchasing manager has been replaced by a Saudi..there are no traditional project meetings during work hours...they prefer to meet up at one of the Riyadh cafe in the evening..and exit work early...also there is cultural mis-match..we tend to follow western routine of working 9-5 where as Saudis wish to start early and be at home by afternoon....Working after 12 is near impossibility for most Saudis..that is why Saudis are not faring well in commercial trading but doing good at factories and production plants where the day starts as early as 5AM...Saudis are night owls..they like to fall asleep at 12 Noon..
 
Last edited:
Try doing physical labour in the middle of July in Makkah for instance in 45-50 celsius heat under a burning sun. Good luck with that one, lol.
I meant sleep at 8 am not wake up then
or more accurately after fajr if possible
I did that throughout my student life there I know the Arab culture pretty well
i meant the business culture around the world which is where you did not get what I meant
the business culture needs change... especially the office culture.. Saudis are very good at business but not everyone can do that... Labour yes, I know the labour laws very well, and the times where you are legally not allowed to work labour jobs, construction etc
 

Mohammed Fahad Al-Harthi | Published — Tuesday 26 April 2016

It was an exceptional day for Saudi Arabia yesterday. The Royal Court was packed with Saudi and foreign journalists and writers. Their eyes were fixated on the declaration of the Saudi Vision 2030 — a new road map that charts a new future for Saudi Arabia.
Deputy Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, the architect of the path-breaking project, revealed the main features of the plan. He presented a comprehensive economic, social and military blueprint.
The plan rests on Saudi Arabia’s tall standing in Arab and Islamic world, the Kingdom’s massive investment capacity and the country’s strategic location. The plan includes key factors and initiatives that will take Saudi Arabia on par with the developed economies of the world. Most importantly, the plan relies on multiple resources of revenue rather than a complete reliance on a single commodity of oil.
The plan focuses on human resources through training and development to bring about a qualitative change in the field of education. The plan’s economic side is full of attraction, particularly the Public Investment Fund, which is expected to reach SR10 trillion, making it the largest investment fund in the world.
The deputy crown prince had extensive discussions with many of the attendees and he clearly has a comprehensive road map for implementing the project. He answered all the questions that were put to him with great assurance and provided accurate figures.
He encouraged dialogue during the conversation because he believes that dialogue will help us all to reach healthy solutions.
A bright future awaits Saudi Arabia. The number of Umrah pilgrims, for example, is expected to rise from the current 8 million to 30 million by 2030.
One of the striking examples in the plan is spending on culture and entertainment where the family spending is poised to increase from 2.9 percent to 6 percent. This is just one of the several aspects the map details with clear figures and objectives.
Yesterday, the Saudi people who listened to the deputy crown prince were more confident and more optimistic about the future of their country on the back of the country’s new development drive. As one of attendees said: “I now feel secure about the future of my children and grandchildren.”

http://www.arabnews.com/columns/news/915611

ARAB NEWS | Published — Wednesday 27 April 2016
file-26-ROADMAP2-%281%29.jpg
RIYADH: The Saudi government plans to work closely with the private sector to ensure that the economy grows for the benefit of the country’s citizens under Vision 2030, with further details to be announced soon on how this would take place.
This is according to Deputy Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, second deputy premier and defense minister, who provided further clarity on some initiatives at a press conference on Monday, the Saudi Press Agency reported.
He had earlier announced sweeping economic reforms to reduce the country’s dependence on oil and ensure long-term sustainable development, with plans for a $2 trillion sovereign fund.
These were some of the questions, edited by Arab News, posed by journalists to the prince at a press conference in Riyadh.

Q: We are beginning to see a new Saudi Arabia, where the contribution of the private sector is 40 percent. Privatization will focus on education and health but there are experiments in other countries where the privatization projects benefited the rich by virtue of financial capacity. How do we make sure that the results of this privatization will not make the rich richer and the poor poorer?
A: We have the experience of STC when it was privatized; its shares were offered for public subscription. Those who subscribed were the citizens and not businessmen. In the health sector, the idea now is to have the hospitals owned by the Ministry of Health to fall under a holding company and then be offered for public subscription. In this way, they will be offered to citizens directly. This will mostly prevent businessman and the wealthy from taking advantage of the privatization process because of the enhanced transparency.

Q: The vision is being carried out along two tracks: A clearer economic track and the social track. The question is about the social track: How will it materialize for citizens? Is there a timetable, whether in health, education and housing? And what about Aramco and freezing of oil production?
A: Forthcoming programs will be announced and launched under the umbrella of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia’s Vision 2030, the first of which is the national transformation program expected to be announced by the end of the fifth month or the beginning of the sixth month. It will be an executive program to achieve the objectives of the vision in many sectors, the most important of which is the services sector, to meet the needs of citizens.
Firstly, we are talking about more than a $1 trillion, but the valuation of Aramco has not been completed. We are working on this with the banks and specialized centers. We expect that the valuation of Aramco will be more than $2 trillion.
Non-Aramco assets will also be added to the fund to the value of $300 billion in addition to the current value of the fund which is nearly $200 billion. In this way, we will have a public investment fund of more than a trillion, nearly $3 trillion.

Freezing the production of Aramco has nothing to do with its value or entry into the fund. The decision is for the benefit of Aramco. Already, the Kingdom has announced that it will welcome any process to freeze production if agreed among all the major states in OPEC, but so far the other states have not committed to a freeze.

Q: What is being done about the role of women, the driving issue, Aramco and young people?
A: Women’s driving is not a religious issue but rather a social one. Currently our society is not convinced that women should drive and there will be very negative consequences if this happens. But I stress that this issue is totally related to the desire of members of Saudi society and we cannot impose something on them they do not want. But in the future, changes will occur and we hope it will be positive changes.
On Aramco’s IPO, the company will offer less than 5 percent and companies owned by Aramco will be offered very shortly afterwards. We expect that there will be a high growth rate in the Saudi economy over the next 15 years. We do not expect it to be in the first years because these will be years of reform, but after that we expect very high growth that will make us one of the twenty largest economies in the world.
Young people are the real power of our country. They are strong, creative, ambitious and have high standards and values.

Q: You spoke about the sovereign fund and said 50 percent would be directed to foreign investments and the rest to the domestic market. Will there be a preference given to foreign investments? And what about research centers?
A: The fund looks to invest for pure profitability. The fund’s function is not to bear the responsibility of the nation. Its role is to create revenues and profits, and the role of government is to look for revenues. So, the focus of the fund is purely an investment focus.
We are using Saudi expertise and offices in planning and this is important work currently taking place with the king and the team working with him, which includes the Ministry of Planning.

Q: What is the situation with regard to the oil price, and human resources?
A: We can achieve the vision if the oil price is $30 or less and we think it is nearly impossible that oil falls below $30 by virtue of the current demand existing in the world. However, a rise in oil prices would help achieve the vision, so that the country is not vulnerable to fluctuations.
Saudi human resources are vital for the plan to work. Saudis are able to work in all sectors of the economy to help care for future generations.

Q: What is your vision on manufacturing in the Kingdom?
A: We have major global factories in the Kingdom today. We want to develop the country’s military industries to bolster and create a new economic sector that will provide many jobs and be a source of great profits.

Q: What is being done about bureaucracy and other obstacles, including convincing the public about the plan?
A: There will be intensive work with the legislative authority to issue or modify some of the regulations that have to do with the work of businessmen and Saudi companies to facilitate procedures, and to raise the level of services provided for them.
One of the obstacles was to convince some Saudis that Aramco was not part of our faith. Aramco is an investment, and there are many obstacles we’ve faced within the Saudi government, some parts of the media and among some readers. But when you explain to them things clearly, many people are convinced, like today. We need this support to achieve this vision because it will benefit everyone.

Q: Will the number of pilgrims be increased?
A: It is very difficult to greatly increase their numbers because of time and site limitations. We are dealing with the Haj as a religious duty. It is our duty to offer Haj services completely free, and this is the duty of all Saudis toward the Muslim world.
As for Umrah, there is a chance to increase Umrah performers and visitors throughout the year. We’re looking at increasing them to 30 million within the next 15 years. Yes, we will also target tourists in various fields: in history, civilization and culture, and also through some distinctive natural sites.

Q: Which services can’t be privatized? And what about relations with other countries?
A: Privatization of some services such the Red Crescent and Civil Defense is difficult because of the lack of profitability.
We will rely on Egypt and Sudan in agriculture. We will rely on Egypt in a very big way for the promotion of our exports to Europe and Asia. This will be of huge benefit for Saudi Arabia and Egypt. We also have other programs with the Gulf states linking roads, connecting rail networks and ports. We have programs with Jordan in line with the vision, and others with all neighboring countries.

Q: What role should civil society organizations play, and family owned companies?
A: We’re focusing very strongly on the development of the non-profit sector. I can assure you that most wealthy families in Saudi Arabia have a very strong desire to do non-profit work but they have not found the suitable environment and appropriate regulations that will protect their money.
We’re looking to the non-profit sector to support education, culture, health and research. There are opportunities to convert some companies into non-profit enterprises such as King Faisal Specialist Hospital. There has also been a plan mooted to do so with King Saud University.

Q: How would Vision 2030 affect sports clubs?
A: We’re focusing on the sports market or football market. We want it to be a successful market providing revenues for clubs. I think there are many issues that can be addressed in terms of reducing the cost of running Saudi clubs and creating additional profits for them. For example, if the number of foreign players were increased then payment for Saudi players will be reduced. This will reduce the running costs of clubs.

Q: How will the private sector contribute to the economy?
A: Aramco’s IPO is a part of the plan to grow the country’s Gross Domestic Product. Aramco will be a part of the private sector and not the public sector. Privatization will increase private sector productivity.

http://www.arabnews.com/saudi-arabia/news/915966

ARAB NEWS | Published — Wednesday 27 April 2016
file-26-39326468037116724.jpg

RIYADH: Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques King Salman has promised that the government would continue to invest in the training and education of citizens, which he said would help boost the economy.
The king made the comments during a meeting at Al-Yamamah Palace Tuesday with Mufrej Al-Haqabani, labor minister, and a group of representatives from the private sector.
“Your state is moving steadily on the path of growth and development while adhering to its religious and social values. We will continue working toward achieving comprehensive development across all regions of the Kingdom.”
King Salman said: “The state has paid great attention to the labor sector and technical and vocational training. It has enacted regulations, and provided generous financial support to train Saudi human resources and Saudize the technology sector.”
He explained: “The investment in developing national human resources is the main investment of your country. The people of this country have taken advantage of the training programs available to them, to help themselves and serve their community and country. Some of them have won honorable awards in this regard.”

http://www.arabnews.com/saudi-arabia/news/916046

MOHAMMED FAHAD AL-HARTHI | Published — Wednesday 27 April 2016
file-26-Mohammed%20Fahad%20Al-Harthi.jpg


Saudi Arabia is on a new trajectory of growth. The new vision outlines the future of the country. This week, the Kingdom revealed its post-oil plans and introduced a clear road map for its future. That road map prepares for change in a new Saudi Arabia in line with modern times. It has the potential for not only economic achievements but also political, social and military ones.
Saudi Arabia’s road map for the future will see it transformed from a state dependent on oil to a productive country with diversified sources of income. It is clear that this vision sets a path which will reduce wasteful government spending and raise the level of productivity.
Mistaken are those who see this transformation only from the economic side as it is in fact a comprehensive vision for the country in the post-oil era. This calls for structural, economic and social changes, and it is evident that society is preparing for this transformation because it is the only choice available that guarantees the stability of the state and the well-being of future generations.
Such changes require strong policies and decisions and decisive leadership in order to explain and manage the transformation; it is only natural that there will be resistance as human beings are by nature against change and anything that is new or unfamiliar.
Deputy Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, who also chairs the Council of Economic and Developmental Affairs, introduced the Vision 2030 on Monday. It is a comprehensive vision for the future and it focuses on specific targets and figures. It aims to find and create new concepts that require raising the level of productivity and transitioning to a new phase characterized by new thought. The deputy crown prince sees that society is expected to increase productivity, and he acknowledges that, without a doubt, women are one-half of society, and there is a need to increase the productivity of that half as well.
Certainly social change has an important role in any society seeking to improve itself. This change goes with establishing the idea of a civil state and increasing education and training so that Saudi skills and capabilities become one of the strengths of the national economy. No doubt the concept of the rentier state will remain for a while in Saudi culture, but the concept has created barriers to the state’s advancement. The result has been vast unemployment and a limited role for half of society; societies that run at half-capacity are unable to compete fully in the global market.
Discussions about social change are centered around development and modernization. The change is driven and led by the state in order to guarantee peaceful social change. Our leaders who have a long-term vision understand the nature of the people, their requirements, and the preparations needed for each stage. The Kingdom is entering a new phase in the history of its development and growth, and social change will be in line with the pillars of the Holy Qur’an and the Sunnah. This fact was emphasized by the Saudi leadership in its meetings with various groups of society.
Social change is associated with political, developmental and community actions. Those who have been monitoring Saudi society in recent years are aware of the tremendous changes because of the revolution in communications, the spread of education and the availability of scholarships as well as interaction with foreign communities in the Kingdom. These factors, among others, have created a new reality in Saudi society. As Anthony D. Smith wrote in his book on the concept of social change, “Change, be it social or historical, is so all encompassing that it is difficult to fully study, grasp and understand. This creates a sort of ambiguity that makes it difficult to reach a unique definition of social change.”
Nonetheless, social change is part of all societies and has been throughout history; its impressive results and outcomes vary depending on the community, the nature of the culture and people’s ways of thinking in addition to the context. This change gives birth to new societal values, structures and interpersonal connections. Changes also occur in the internal structure of society and sometimes clashes may occur due to the rapid speed of change and the emergence of different ways of thinking; this is of course the natural way of historical development.
Today, Saudi Arabia’s voice has become stronger and clearer than ever, and its decisions critical when it comes to benefiting and protecting its people. In order to guarantee these, the Kingdom launched Operation Decisive Storm and formed the Islamic Military Coalition to counter terrorism. We are an influential country in the G-20, and that is why we anticipate entering a new phase, not only economically but also socially and politically.
Saudi society has matured in its evolution and development as was described by the writer Dr. Abdul Aziz Al-Gharib in his book on social and cultural change in which he used practical examples from Saudi society. He writes that amid these cultural changes emerges the importance of reform in society, and he calls for the establishment of organizations to manage the reform process and guarantee its success in all aspects. He also advocates periodic evaluation and strategic planning as a “feature of civil societies.” He also confirms the importance of having a clear long-term vision based on what we want for society, and one that includes a methodology for use over several generations unaffected by any temporal or unexpected changes.
Saudi Arabia in the era of King Salman is enforcing a new rhythm with a loud and well-heard voice. This is true not only in its foreign policy and international relations, but also in the ambitions for tremendous growth that Saudis can translate into reality. As the force behind this project, Deputy Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, rightfully said: “There are great qualifications among Saudi youth that simply need the chance and opportunity to be shown, and it appears with the announcement of Vision 2030, the opportunity has arrived.”

http://www.arabnews.com/columns/news/916051#

Private sector to get help in promoting culture, entertainment
May 1, 2016

Adel Al-Turaifi​

RIYADH — Saudi Vision 2030 include supporting the efforts of the Kingdom’s provinces and governorates in holding various festivals and activities, supporting talented writers, authors and producers, and supporting the creation of various cultural and recreational options that suit the various tastes and segments of the society, said Minister of Culture and Information Adel Al-Turaifi.

He said: “The Vision focused on boosting, consolidating and diversifying the concept of the cultural industry via a number of mechanisms. They include: supporting the nonprofit and private sectors in setting up festivals and various activities, activating the role of the different funds in establishing and developing recreational centers, encouraging investors from within the Kingdom and abroad to forge partnerships with international entertainment companies, allocating land for setting up cultural and entertainment projects including libraries, museums and arts, among others.”

http://saudigazette.com.sa/saudi-arabia/private-sector-get-help-promoting-culture-entertainment/
 
Vision or mirage?
Saudi Arabia’s post-oil future
Bold promises from a young prince. But they will be hard to keep
Apr 30th 2016 | RIYADH | From the print edition
20160430_map001.jpg


IF ANYONE needed confirmation that Muhammad bin Salman, Saudi Arabia’s deputy crown prince, is a man in a hurry, they got it on April 25th. The 30-year-old unveiled a string of commitments to end the kingdom’s dependence on oil by 2030 which, in themselves, would be a remarkable achievement for a hidebound country. Then he proceeded to trump himself, saying that the kingdom could overcome “any dependence on oil” within a mere four years, by 2020.

That may have been meant to convey a sense of urgency; but it also sums up what seems to be manic optimism among the youthful new policy-setters of the royal court. They have yet to set out a cool, detailed explanation of how to turn vision into reality. That has been promised since January, and will now supposedly be provided in a few weeks’ time.

In this section
Reprints
Related topics
The outlines of the announcement, which has generated much anticipation, had been well trailed. They included: the floating of a small stake in Saudi Aramco, the world’s biggest oil company; the creation of the world’s largest sovereign-wealth fund to invest in a diverse range of assets; more jobs for women; and more vibrant non-oil industries, ranging from mining to military hardware. These are radical proposals in a country that has historically generated nine-tenths of government revenues from oil, and whose budget deficit is expected to reach 13.5% of GDP this year after an 18-month slump in oil prices.

20160430_mac219.png

Prince Muhammad backtracked on none of them this week—though his modest goal of raising the female participation rate in the workforce from 22% to only 30% in 15 years appeared to reflect resistance from the Wahhabi religious establishment, whose shadow hangs over all reform in Saudi Arabia. A promise that women would be allowed to drive, essential if they are to enter the workforce fully, had been hoped for by some, but failed to materialise. There was also no word on democratic reform or other freedoms: the sort of things which might be expected to appeal to a youthful population.

The prince expects the sale of a stake of up to 5% in Aramco to value the company at a minimum of $2 trillion, and he promised to transform it into a “global industrial conglomerate” (see article). Much remains unclear. But the proceeds of the sale, and the business itself, would be put into a sovereign wealth fund known as the Public Investment Fund, which with other assets could be worth as much as $3 trillion, generating plenty of non-oil investment income. Other industries would be given incentives to grow. The kingdom, with the world’s third-biggest military budget, spends only 2% of it on arms purchases at home. The “vision” calls for over half of it to be spent on locally made armaments by 2030.

To achieve such goals, Saudi Arabia needs to throw itself open to trade, investment, foreign visitors and international codes of conduct such as more transparency and secular laws. But much of this is anathema to the clerics who, for decades, have sought to shun the outside world. Powerful business interests within the prince’s own huge extended family will also slow things down. The tense feud with Iran, stoked by Prince Muhammad through a proxy war in neighbouring Yemen, adds potential instability to the risks that investors would face. But a step in the right direction was unveiled this week with the promise of “green cards”, permanent-residence documents for foreigners.

The indolence of a society brought up to expect that oil riches will be lavished upon them is another large hurdle. For years, efforts to end the kingdom’s addiction to oil have run up against a wall of apathy. As one Saudi commentator puts it, “It’s been like a father telling his 40-year-old son that it’s time to go out and get a job.” Prince Muhammad’s youth in a country used to gerontocratic rulers should make it easier for him to motivate young people, and social media give him better access to the pulse of the country. But with oil revenues weak and unemployment at 11.6%, the chances of disillusion are strong.

That is why he will have to address some of the questions hanging over the reforms when he reveals the National Transformation Plan, fleshing out his vision, in late May or early June. Foreign executives in Riyadh, impressed by the urgency with which Prince Muhammad’s economic council appears to be slashing government waste, say concrete steps are needed before investment will come in.

“The big change here is that they’ve recognised ‘We’re inefficient, we’re corrupt and we need to change,’” says Paddy Padmanathan, chief executive of Acwa Power, a Saudi electricity-generator which hopes to benefit from a pledge to produce 9,500 megawatts of renewable energy. He lauds the cutting of subsidies for public services such as electricity. But he adds that to attract investment the government will need to clarify the privatisation plans for its utilities, and show how they can balance their books. Investors “don’t want to rely on a macho government saying ‘Trust me, I will pay,’” he says. Another businessman says the country needs labour-market reform so that it becomes politically possible to fire Saudi employees who fail to do their jobs. “If you fired 20 Saudis who didn’t turn up for work, you’d find yourself in a Twitter storm,” he says.

Ultimately, the chances for success may depend on the power of the prince himself, who has amassed enormous control over policymaking since his 80-year-old father, Salman, became king last year. But he remains only second in line to the throne, and has a stalemate in Yemen counting against him. “This is not a dream, this is a reality that will be achieved, God willing,” he says. But when the sums involved are in the trillions of dollars, the neighbourhood is fraught with tension and the reforms require the tearing up of a social contract to succeed, the burden of proof is high. Saudi Arabia has promised diversification away from oil for decades. The prince still needs to prove that this time is any different.

From the print edition: Middle East and Africa
 
This is nothing but wishful thinking on the part of Saudi Arabia, in my opinion.

Saudi Arabia has been in a severe budget deficit since 2014. It has lost hundreds of billions of US dollars in forex reserves ever since it naively decided to lower the price of oil and get itself involved in an unwinnable war against Yemen. The problem is that Saudi Arabia doesn't show any signs that it's genuinely trying to diversify its economy, nor does it have enough local manpower to successfully diversify away from oil in the first place.

The Saudis, as well as the other Gulf Arabs, should have planned for the post-oil era many decades ago -- not now! I'm sorry, but it's way too late for Saudi Arabia (or any other GCC country, for that matter) to plan for the post-oil era.

Another thing Saudi Arabia must do in order to have a competitive economy is undergo huge socioeconomic transformations, many of which might not be tolerated by the kingdom's conservative population. Is Saudi society ready to give women more rights? Will women finally be allowed to drive, dress how they please, and move freely in (and outside) the country? The Saudi economy will never be able to sustain itself without the inclusion of women in the workforce and without introducing liberalizing reforms to Saudi society.

This isn't real planning, I'm afraid.
 
This is nothing but wishful thinking on the part of Saudi Arabia, in my opinion.

Saudi Arabia has been in a severe budget deficit since 2014. It has lost hundreds of billions of US dollars in forex reserves ever since it naively decided to lower the price of oil and get itself involved in an unwinnable war against Yemen. The problem is that Saudi Arabia doesn't show any signs that it's genuinely trying to diversify its economy, nor does it have enough local manpower to successfully diversify away from oil in the first place.

The Saudis, as well as the other Gulf Arabs, should have planned for the post-oil era many decades ago -- not now! I'm sorry, but it's way too late for Saudi Arabia (or any other GCC country, for that matter) to plan for the post-oil era.

Another thing Saudi Arabia must do in order to have a competitive economy is undergo huge socioeconomic transformations, many of which might not be tolerated by the kingdom's conservative population. Is Saudi society ready to give women more rights? Will women finally be allowed to drive, dress how they please, and move freely in (and outside) the country? The Saudi economy will never be able to sustain itself without the inclusion of women in the workforce and without introducing liberalizing reforms to Saudi society.

This isn't real planning, I'm afraid.

So what's your point, TurkoPersian? Is your alternative, which is no less backwards, provide something better for the region? It's worked out greatly in Iraq....:rolleyes:

Both of you use religion as a tool, and willing to hinder progress in the region as long as it benefits your personal nationalist interests. It's really sad how many young men, women and children are dying over all this.
 
So what's your point, TurkoPersian? Is your alternative, which is no less backwards, provide something better for the region? It's worked out greatly in Iraq....:rolleyes:

Both of you use religion as a tool, and willing to hinder progress in the region as long as it benefits your personal nationalist interests. It's really sad how many young men, women and children are dying over all this.

Who is "TurkoPersian" bro? Does not sound very Kuwaiti, lol. Is she or he even an Kuwaiti or Arab? I smelled a rat initially but I did not want to be rude. The ignorance in that post was telling though. Probably an European, Iranian or South Asian false-flagger.

Anyway Prince Muhammad bin Salman is a good guy. I have come to believe that he wants to see radical changes in not only KSA but the Arab world as a whole. He is part of our generation albeit a few years older.

You can watch his entire interview for yourself and judge.


Anyway if you visit Arab forums or even Reddit forums used by Arabs, you will see that basically everyone (native as those living abroad) is highly critical of the regimes and leaderships in the Arab and Muslim world but we ought not to be too negative for the sake of it. It's a transitional period due to a lot of reasons.

@Falcon29 please watch this video below.


The demographic and generational changes will alone ensure better times not far from now.
 
Last edited:
Who is "TurkoPersian" bro? Does not sound very Kuwaiti, lol. Is she or he even an Kuwaiti or Arab? I smelled a rat initially but I did not want to be rude. The ignorance in that post was telling though. Probably an European, Iranian or South Asian false-flagger.

Claims to be Kuwaiti woman, although I have no idea. I view an Iranian forum from time to time, that was the user's name over there, everyone disliked the user, it was pretty funny, then the user was banned. :lol:

All I know is this person has serious dislike for Arabs, but also tried sowing division along ethnic lines among Iranians on that forum, and was accused of being a Zionist troll for that.
 
So what's your point, TurkoPersian? Is your alternative, which is no less backwards, provide something better for the region? It's worked out greatly in Iraq....:rolleyes:

Both of you use religion as a tool, and willing to hinder progress in the region as long as it benefits your personal nationalist interests. It's really sad how many young men, women and children are dying over all this.
What exactly is my alternative, seeing as how you've already made up your mind about what I stand for? Do tell...

My criticism of the Saudi economic model was fair and valid.

I'd be very happy if the Saudis prove me wrong and change their country for the better, but I have my doubts, as do so many other people.

Who is "TurkoPersian" bro? Does not sound very Kuwaiti, lol. Is she or he even an Kuwaiti or Arab? I smelled a rat initially but I did not want to be rude. The ignorance in that post was telling though. Probably an European, Iranian or South Asian false-flagger.

Anyway Prince Muhammad bin Salman is a good guy. I have come to believe that he wants to see radical changes in not only KSA but the Arab world as a whole. He is part of our generation albeit a few years older.

You can watch his entire interview for yourself and judge.


Anyway if you visit Arab forums or even Reddit forums used by Arabs, you will see that basically everyone (native as those living abroad) is highly critical of the regimes and leaderships in the Arab and Muslim world but we ought not to be too negative for the sake of it. It's a transitional period due to a lot of reasons.

@Falcon29 please watch this video below.


The demographic and generational changes will alone ensure better times not far from now.
TurkoPersian was my username on another forum, but that's off topic and has nothing to do with the conversation at hand.

I already watched the interview. It lacked substance, in my opinion.

By the way, your views and writing style remind me of a Saudi I knew on another forum. His username started with a V. Is that you by any chance? (It wasn't a military forum.)

Claims to be Kuwaiti woman, although I have no idea. I view an Iranian forum from time to time, that was the user's name over there, everyone disliked the user, it was pretty funny, then the user was banned. :lol:

All I know is this person has serious dislike for Arabs, but also tried sowing division along ethnic lines among Iranians on that forum, and was accused of being a Zionist troll for that.
LOL. Either you're a very good stalker or you're a member on that forum. In any case, I was temporarily banned for promoting the idea that Israel and Iran can become friends in the future. Some of the members there got upset when I told them that alliances change all the time in politics and that Israel can (theoretically) win a war against Iran by virtue of its superior military technology. That automatically made me the most hated person on that forum. Anyway, I couldn't care less. I'm used to saying what's on my mind.

Likewise, I'm being as honest as I could in this thread. Saudi Arabia won't have a future unless it undergoes massive socioeconomic transformations. Without liberalizing social reforms, Saudi Arabia doesn't stand a chance in this increasingly globalized world.
 
Last edited:
What exactly is my alternative, seeing as how you've already made up your mind about what I stand for? Do tell...

My criticism of the Saudi economic model was fair and valid.

I'd be very happy if the Saudis prove me wrong and change their country for the better, but I have my doubts, as do so many other people.

The resistance agenda of course...unless you claim to favor independent agenda which clearly isn't the case. It's more like a diatribe against KSA rather than good willed criticism as you present it.

LOL. Either you're a very good stalker or you're a member on that forum. In any case, I was temporarily banned for promoting the idea that Israel and Iran can become friends in the future. Some of the members there got upset when I told them that alliances change all the time in politics and that Israel can (theoretically) win a war against Iran by virtue of its superior military technology. That automatically made me the most hated person on that forum. Anyway, I couldn't care less. I'm used to saying what's on my mind.

Likewise, I'm being as honest as I could in this thread. Saudi Arabia won't have a future unless it undergoes massive socioeconomic transformations. Without liberalizing social reforms, Saudi Arabia doesn't stand a chance in this increasingly globalized world.

I like viewing that forum because the rants are hilarious(not a member), and it was funny seeing all your posts being down voted, to their credit you were trolling them. :lol:

Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Iran will all adopt economic 'transformations'. As for 'liberal social reforms', I find it funny that you proponents of Shia Islam are advocating for the dissipation of Islam in another society. If you want Islam taken away from Saudi's, do your part first, and take it away from your resistance agenda. Which is not going to happen, unless you hope to lose much influence in the Arab world.
 
TurkoPersian was my username on another forum, but that's off topic and has nothing to do with the conversation at hand.

I already watched the interview. It lacked substance, in my opinion.

By the way, your views and writing style remind me of a Saudi I knew on another forum. His username started with a V. Is that you by any chance? (It wasn't a military forum.)

I reacted to @Falcon29 's post and him mentioning some "TurkoPersian" user on some Iranian forum which does not sound very Kuwaiti or Arab to me. That fact coupled with your post made me believe that you were not a Kuwaiti or of Arab origin. If that is the case (I do not care) it will show in your views. If you apparently dislike Arabs too, well, then you can guess the rest of the story.

In any case KSA is very well-positioned to weather any storm. KSA and the GCC have almost 3 trillion dollars of assets just when it comes to sovereign wealth funds not to mention the numerous other investments abroad. KSA has investments worth 1 TRILLION US Dollars in the US alone. KSA remains the biggest "surplus-nation" on the planet. What is more important, the non-oil/gas sectors in KSA are constantly growing even despite obstacles such as the lack of privatization, legal stumbling blocks etc. The "Vision 2030" is exactly aimed at increasing privatization, liberalizing the economy and removing moronic stumble blocks.

The living standards, GDP (per capita) of KSA and that of the average GCC country are already higher than the average of the EU. Let alone the standards seen in the Muslim world. We are talking different galaxies here.

KSA's oil is the cheapest and easiest to extract in the world. KSA has survived much lower oil prices in the past and today the country is able to withstand the current situation much better than any oil producing nation. I don't think that I have to tell you about the situation of oil producing nations in Latin America (Venezuela), Sub-Saharan Africa, Northern Africa (Algeria), Central Asia, Iran, Iraq let alone Russia. A hint, they are much, much worse off. Just like their citizens have always been since oil and gas were discovered in those nations.

Saudi Arabian women are some of the most talented in the entire Muslim world. This is evident when one takes a look at their academic accomplishment abroad and inside KSA where they outnumber the men at universities. For each month more and more Saudi Arabian women become a part of the workforce in practically every field.

You talk about social changes like that was not constantly occurring (like anywhere else in the world) and reforms when KSA has changed tremendously on almost every front just in the past 10 years for the better. Especially the youth which forms 2/3 of the population.

KSA universities are now ranked as the best in the Muslim world, women now outnumber men at universities, the literacy rate is almost 100% today, people are some of the most educated in the Muslim world and developing world etc.

Some of the most impressive industrial cities, infrastructural projects etc. are being built in KSA while we speak. Nor is anything "too late". In KSA's position nothing is too late.

It seems that you just took a quick glance at the plan (which is quite extensive to put it mildly) and made your own biased conclusions.

It's telling that the issues that you quickly mentioned, are issues that this plan aims to correct and improve. Those issues are similarly found in all Muslim and developing countries to smaller and bigger degrees.

Lastly I don't think that anyone in KSA, the GCC or anywhere else for that matter is not aware of the fact that a purely oil-based economy is not sustainable. Or that profound social, economic and political changes must not occur. Everyone I know agrees with all of that.

No, I don't think that we have ever encountered each other. I am only active on Arabic forums, Reddit and this forum.
 
Last edited:
The resistance agenda of course...unless you claim to favor independent agenda which clearly isn't the case. It's more like a diatribe against KSA rather than good willed criticism as you present it.



I like viewing that forum because the rants are hilarious(not a member), and it was funny seeing all your posts being down voted, to their credit you were trolling them. :lol:

Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Iran will all adopt economic 'transformations'. As for 'liberal social reforms', I find it funny that you proponents of Shia Islam are advocating for the dissipation of Islam in another society. If you want Islam taken away from Saudi's, do your part first, and take it away from your resistance agenda. Which is not going to happen, unless you hope to lose much influence in the Arab world.
I'm not a Shiite Muslim. I'm not a Muslim, in fact. I hate the fact that Iran is ruled by the mullahs. I wish it was ruled by secularists instead, preferably Western-oriented secularists. Religiously speaking, I don't identify with the so-called "Axis of Resistance". Even politically, I'm not really a passionate advocate of the Axis of Resistance. I agree with some of its positions, but I reject most of its positions. Speaking of which, that's another reason why I wasn't liked on that forum. Frankly speaking, I was surprised to see so many mullah lovers in one place. Prior to joining that forum, most of the Iranians I came across on the internet were anti-mullah. It's amazing (and sad) how that forum has managed to attract only the Iranian hardliners. That said, it doesn't surprise me the slightest bit, since the members there are very good at harassing those who disagree with them until they end up leaving the forum.

Anyway, I think I've said enough about that sad excuse for a forum.

I'd like to see Saudi Arabia liberalize. The Arabian Peninsula has a lot of potential, but it needs proper leadership and planning. The region also needs an organic process of democratization. You can't have a good economy unless you have political stability. And you can't have a competitive economy unless your society becomes inclusive and tolerates women and minorities.

These challenges are not only unique to Saudi Arabia. They apply to other countries in the region as well.
 
I reacted to @Falcon29 's post and him mentioning some "TurkoPersian" user on some Iranian forum which does not sound very Kuwaiti or Arab to me. That fact coupled with your post made me believe that you were not a Kuwaiti or of Arab origin. If that is the case (I do not care) it will show in your views. If you apparently dislike Arabs too, well, then you can guess the rest of the story.

In any case KSA is very well-positioned to weather any storm. KSA and the GCC have almost 3 trillion dollars of assets just when it comes to sovereign wealth funds not to mention the numerous other investments abroad. KSA has investments worth 1 TRILLION US Dollars in the US alone. KSA remains the biggest "surplus-nation" on the planet. What is more important, the non-oil/gas sectors in KSA are constantly growing even despite obstacles such as the lack of privatization, legal stumbling blocks etc. The "Vision 2030" is exactly aimed at increasing privatization, liberalizing the economy and removing moronic stumble blocks.

The living standards, GDP (per capita) of KSA and that of the average GCC country are already higher than the average of the EU. Let alone the standards seen in the Muslim world. We are talking different galaxies here.

KSA's oil is the cheapest and easiest to extract in the world. KSA has survived much lower oil prices in the past and today the country is able to withstand the current situation much better than any oil producing nation. I don't think that I have to tell you about the situation of oil producing nations in Latin America (Venezuela), Sub-Saharan Africa, Northern Africa (Algeria), Central Asia, Iran, Iraq let alone Russia. A hint, they are much, much worse off. Just like their citizens have always been since oil and gas were discovered in those nations.

Saudi Arabian women are some of the most talented in the entire Muslim world. This is evident when one takes a look at their academic accomplishment abroad and inside KSA where they outnumber the men at universities. For each month more and more Saudi Arabian women become a part of the workforce in practically every field.

You talk about social changes like that was not constantly occurring (like anywhere else in the world) and reforms when KSA has changed tremendously on almost every front just in the past 10 years for the better. Especially the youth which forms 2/3 of the population.

KSA universities are now ranked as the best in the Muslim world, women now outnumber men at universities, the literacy rate is almost 100% today, people are some of the most educated in the Muslim world and developing world etc.

Some of the most impressive industrial cities, infrastructural projects etc. are being built in KSA while we speak. Nor is anything "too late". In KSA's position nothing is too late.

It seems that you just took a quick glance at the plan (which is quite extensive to put it mildly) and made your own biased conclusions.

It's telling that the issues that you quickly mentioned, are issues that this plan aims to correct and improve. Those issues are similarly found in all Muslim and developing countries to smaller and bigger degrees.

Lastly I don't think that anyone in KSA, the GCC or anywhere else for that matter is not aware of the fact that a purely oil-based economy is not sustainable. Or that profound social, economic and political changes must not occur. Everyone I know agrees with all of that.

No, I don't think that we have ever encountered each other. I am only active on Arabic forums, Reddit and this forum.
That's a shame. I was hoping you were him.

Anyway, good luck to Saudi Arabia. I'd like to see Saudi Arabia become a high tech hub. Perhaps Saudi Arabia could one day have its very own Google, etc. That would be very nice, in my opinion.

The biggest question is, what will be Saudi Arabia's main source of income in the post-oil era?

In the UAE, tourism is the second largest income source, after oil. And yet, that's not enough to keep the UAE's economy sustainable.

Of all the resource-rich GCC states, the UAE has tried the hardest to diversify away from oil and gas, and yet it's continuing to struggle economically.

So the real question is, what is Saudi Arabia going to do that will make it different from the UAE?

Saudi Arabia needs to undergo industrialization in order to truly find a substitute for oil and gas.

How is Saudi Arabia going to compete with the likes of Turkey, Iran, and Egypt, all of which are more industrialized, have larger populations, and greater manpower?

These are the serious questions that need to be addressed.

In his interview, the Saudi deputy crown prince said that Saudi Arabia's location next to busy trade routes was going to help the economy flourish. But how? A lot of economists laughed at this notion. Saudi Arabia won't make a dime from being located next to busy trade routes.

The 2030 vision also focused heavily on heritage tourism. Well, unfortunately for the Saudis, most of Saudi Arabia's Islamic heritage has been destroyed by past Saudi governments. Also, the Emiratis learned the hard way that tourism doesn't cut it in this part of the world. You need something more than that.

Finally, there was a lot of talk about investing in foreign countries. Well, Saudi Arabia already has many investments abroad. Have these investments given anything back to the Saudi economy? Considering the fact that 87% of Saudi Arabia's revenue still comes from oil, I'd say the answer is no.
 
Anyway GCC regimes have many faults that they share with all regimes of the Arab, Muslim and developing world but at least they have been able to create successful and stable societies on most fronts (compared to the average Muslim country) and likewise they have done much better overall than all other oil and gas producing countries (Muslim as non-Muslim), excluding the Western ones obviously such as USA, Canada, Norway etc.

Living standards (HDI Index), GDP (per capita), GDP (nominal) are some of the very highest compared to the population sizes. In terms of security the GCC remains one of the safest areas of the world despite being located in the middle of the most volatile (arguably) region of the world. In terms of infrastructure and services the GCC is doing much, much better overall than most (if not all) Muslim and developing states.

The GCC economies (almost all of them) have been able to establish highly successful sovereign wealth funds (the largest in the world alongside those of 1.2 billion big China and Norway) as well. Likewise being able to make successful investments abroad on a very large scale (second to none in the Muslim world as well). The overall economy of the GCC is almost 2 trillion US dollars big. That would make the economy, if 1 single country, the 7th largest in the world of today.

The GCC has the best functioning welfare systems in the Muslim world. Nationals are mostly pampered beyond belief (compared to standards everywhere else and in particularly the Muslim world) as well.

Despite the GCC regimes not being democratic there are hardly any online restrictions unlike nearby Iran where social networks such as Facebook are banned and the internet speed is one of the lowest in the world (deliberately to prevent people from organizing unrest) etc. Everything that you can get in the West you can get in the GCC. Outside of KSA hardly anything is outright banned.

Not to mention the GCC being the most visited area of the Muslim world alongside Turkey.

Yes, the average person has little say in day-to-day politics but as one of the founding fathers of the US once wrote, "no taxation without representation".

I firmly believe, as do most neutral observers, that KSA, a G-20 Major Economies Member State, will remain in the top 20 for decades to come (as most figures and reports also show) and I even believe that KSA will continue to growth as a nation on every front in the future as well. In fact the growth would be/will be much bigger if even half of the things this plan (Vision 2030) mentions will occur.

What is holding the nation down on many fronts (politically, socially and economically) is the ultraconservative Najdi-dominated clergy and the few old dinosaurs within that circle of people who have too much power and have had it for decades. It is due to them that moronic 25 year old "laws" such as the women driving ban etc. (based on a fatwa of the late ibn Baaz in 1990) and the ban on cinemas came to be. Prior to those fatwas both were legal. Anyway as Prince Muhammad bin Salman has said on many occasions, it's a question of time and not if, when such "laws" will be abolished.

Likewise the GCC has one of the highest literacy rates in the Muslim world overall and one of the highest in the developing world.

So yes, there are challenges ahead (some serious and some not so much) but nobody should come here and tell me that everything is bad or that the GCC will soon "disappear". The truth is that we are in a much, much better position than the vast majority of the countries of the world let alone regional and Muslim countries.

Anyway time will tell but I will remain positive as things have been moving in the right direction continuously in the past 10 years.

That's a shame. I was hoping you were him.

Anyway, good luck to Saudi Arabia. I'd like to see Saudi Arabia become a high tech hub. Perhaps Saudi Arabia could one day have its very own Google, etc. That would be very nice, in my opinion.

The biggest question is, what will be Saudi Arabia's main source of income in the post-oil era?

In the UAE, tourism is the second largest income source, after oil. And yet, that's not enough to keep the UAE's economy sustainable.

Of all the resource-rich GCC states, the UAE has tried the hardest to diversify away from oil and gas, and yet it's continuing to struggle economically.

So the real question is, what is Saudi Arabia going to do that will make it different from the UAE?

Saudi Arabia needs to undergo industrialization in order to truly find a substitute for oil and gas.

How is Saudi Arabia going to compete with the likes of Turkey, Iran, and Egypt, all of which are more industrialized, have larger populations, and greater manpower?

These are the serious questions that need to be addressed.

In his interview, the Saudi deputy crown prince said that Saudi Arabia's location next to busy trade routes was going to help the economy flourish. But how? A lot of economists laughed at this notion. Saudi Arabia won't make a dime from being located next to busy trade routes.

The 2030 vision also focused heavily on heritage tourism. Well, unfortunately for the Saudis, most of Saudi Arabia's Islamic heritage has been destroyed by past Saudi governments. Also, the Emiratis learned the hard way that tourism doesn't cut it in this part of the world. You need something more than that.

Finally, there was a lot of talk about investing in foreign countries. Well, Saudi Arabia already has many investments abroad. Have these investments given anything back to the Saudi economy? Considering the fact that 87% of Saudi Arabia's revenue still comes from oil, I'd say the answer is no.

Saudi Arabia already has quite a few large and successful companies in different fields. Be it conglomerates, consumer goods, financials, industrials, media, oil and gas, retail, technology, telecommunications, travel and leisure, agriculture etc.

I guess that the aim is to continue the ongoing industrialization and eventually turn into a knowledge-based economy.

With all due respect, the UAE is a small country (tiny in fact) compared to KSA and their population likewise. Thus this impacts their potential a lot. They are already punching WAY above their size. Take a look at the size of their economy. It's quite impressive compared to the population size. They dwarf equally as resource-rich countries with a similar population and even equally resource-rich countries with a much, much larger population. If the UAE is struggling then what do you have to tell about the situation that the Muslim and most developing countries are in?

I agree that Turkey is more industrialized than KSA but how exactly is Egypt more industrialized? Iran is only ahead on certain fronts in this regard (they are behind on others) due to them having a 2.5 times larger population.

KSA is already benefiting from its strategical location much like the GCC has. Be it in terms of trade, aviation etc. Have you taken a look at the regional projects and those aimed at connecting China with the Middle East and Africa? KSA and the GCC hold a key position in that plan. It's naive to believe that this will impact everyone else but the GCC positively. The region is interconnected, in fact the entire world is.

KSA is home to dozens upon dozens of well-kept ancient cities and heritage sites, several World UNESCO Heritage Sites and numerous of well-kept villages, towns, cities etc. all across the country. Let alone the nature and the variety of landscapes in the form of numerous mountain ranges (half of the country basically), 3000 km of mostly tropical coastline - some of the most beautiful and untouched marine life can be found in KSA. For instance the Saudi Arabian Red Sea coastline has the biggest coral reefs in the world after the Great Barrier Reef in Australia. Almost 1500 islands, all kind of deserts (volcanic, mountainous, sandy, rocky), hundreds of valleys, the almost 100 national parks and protected areas, wildlife, wild nature etc. KSA is a extremely underrated country in this regard.

Let alone Makkah and Madinah which naturally has the potential to attract millions upon millions of Muslims each single month. All reports show that the number of Hajj and Umrah pilgrims will reach 30-40 million on a yearly basis not long from now. If all of those can be able to obtain a tourism visa (a proposal) as is the plan, then the tourism industry will be an important source of income. Also there are plenty of historical Islamic sites in KSA. More than anywhere else. What was removed (I don't agree with that BTW) were tombs. Nothing that prevents or has prevented millions of pilgrims to arrive each single year.

UAE cannot compete with all of this at all. Nor anyone else in the region.

The investments abroad are not supposed to impact the day-to-day goings of the Saudi Arabian and other GCC economies but rather serve as an additional guarantee if needed, much like the sovereign wealth funds do.

Also you forget that the population of KSA, much like that of the entire GCC, is growing steadily and that the GCC has one of the youngest populations out there, in particular KSA. The Arabian Peninsula as a whole already have a larger population than Iran and Turkey. The fertility rate of the Arabian Peninsula is bigger as well so the difference will just increase for each year. However the population size is not really that important if you take a look at developed countries in the West. It's only important if you want to compete (on the long run) with heavyweights such as the US, China, India etc. but I think that no sane person expects KSA, Egypt, Iran, Turkey or whoever in the region to be able to do that. If KSA can keep its place among the 20 most powerful economies of the world (out of almost 200 sovereign nations), which most reports show that they will for decades to come, there will be no reason to complain.

Yes, the governments budget relies on oil and gas (Dutch disease) but "only" around 2/3 of Saudi Arabia's exports are oil or gas. Also you should remember that the non-oil and gas sectors in KSA are on a steadily rise and that will continue. Even more so when needed social, political and economic changes occur, which they WILL, as they simply have to.

Not to forget that there is no taxation in KSA. That alone is a key source of income for most governments. Also I am not sure if you have heard about the plan of giving migrants (Arabs as non-Arabs) permanent residency which again will ensure that billions upon billions of dollars remain in the Saudi Arabian market instead of leaving the country. As you might know KSA is the largest remittance-sending country in the world after the US.

Also take a look at this thread for instance:

https://defence.pk/threads/oiling-the-wheels-on-a-road-to-success-in-saudi-arabia.428713/

This is what we will continue to see more and more of for each year that goes by. Also I believe, despite certain stumbling blocks, that the future of the GCC and the Arabian Peninsula as a whole (this includes Yemen) is closely tied so we ought to look at the region as one entity on many fronts. Likewise I firmly believe that the Arab world as a whole will cooperate increasingly more (once many of the current plagues have ended) and the MENA region as a whole. At the end of the day we are all interconnected whether we like it or not let. Particularly neighboring states. The world, as you yourself wrote, is moving towards globalization and the differences appear to be smaller for each generation as well. For good and bad.

So overall we are in a more than good position but likewise we have some serious challenges ahead of us that must be solved, as I wrote before. That however does not mean that sensationalist agendas or claims have any relation to ground realities which is very often not the case when KSA is discussed, unfortunately.

Anyway could you update me on the plans of Kuwait in this regard? I know the overall story but not the more recent details. Thank you. Anyway I have to go and I hope that we can have constructive debates in the future.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom