SAC's J-XX?

[Akasa]

But cost gives you a numbers advantage. Against an F-22, you get an advantage of about 4-1. No chance in hell your short range missile would spot the Su-35 before it's OLS spots you.

The BVR capabilities are not useful considering the ranges involved. The Su-35 will be able to evade anything you fire at it if you stay out of detection range.

Even if you have 10, they would still be picked off by BVR missiles before they can see the F-22. Short range missiles will be fired and the Su-35BM would not be able to pick up who fired it.

The Su-35BM would not be able to fight even at medium ranges.

 

[Birbal]

Even if you have 10, they would still be picked off by BVR missiles before they can see the F-22. Short range missiles will be fired and the Su-35BM would not be able to pick up who fired it.

The Su-35BM would not be able to fight even at medium ranges.

First of all, the F-22 can't carry 10 BVR missiles. Second, depending on what you mean by "medium ranges", the Su-35 may or may not be able to fight. The bottom line is that if you actually want your AMRAAM to hit the Su-35, you have to get much closer. And at that point, the Su-35 can also engage you.

 

[Akasa]

First of all, the F-22 can't carry 10 BVR missiles. Second, depending on what you mean by "medium ranges", the Su-35 may or may not be able to fight. The bottom line is that if you actually want your AMRAAM to hit the Su-35, you have to get much closer. And at that point, the Su-35 can also engage you.

And the Su-35BM isn't 10 times as less expensive.

Medium ranges in this case means within the range of the F-22's BVR range, but not within the Su-35BM's tracking range. The AMRAAMs can be fired in volleys which are very hard to evade.

Even if it gets closer, it would have a safety zone in which its RCS would not be tracked by the Su-35BM.

 

[April.lyrics]

i heard that F-22 is not hard to be find.

it is hard to be locked on

 

[Birbal]

And the Su-35BM isn't 10 times as less expensive.

Medium ranges in this case means within the range of the F-22's BVR range, but not within the Su-35BM's tracking range. The AMRAAMs can be fired in volleys which are very hard to evade.

Even if it gets closer, it would have a safety zone in which its RCS would not be tracked by the Su-35BM.

Volleys are not much harder to evade than a single missile. Doppler beaming will evade all of them. Or you can just outrun them. And no, it does not have much of a safety zone. The Irbis-E is a very powerful radar, and the Su-35 optical locator system is very effective.

i heard that F-22 is not hard to be find.

it is hard to be locked on

That's true, but the R-77 with infrared seeker range can lock on at a pretty decent range, and the Su-35 optical locater system might be able to feed datalink updates to the active version of the R-77.

 

[NeutralCitizen]

This baby looks like a Mix of the F-22/F-35, when it going to be revealed ?

 

[amalakas]

Volleys are not much harder to evade than a single missile. Doppler beaming will evade all of them. Or you can just outrun them. And no, it does not have much of a safety zone. The Irbis-E is a very powerful radar, and the Su-35 optical locator system is very effective.



That's true, but the R-77 with infrared seeker range can lock on at a pretty decent range, and the Su-35 optical locater system might be able to feed datalink updates to the active version of the R-77.

Not entirely true. Some (most) IR seeker heads are unable to get a sustained lock on the F-22.

 

[rcrmj]

But cost gives you a numbers advantage. Against an F-22, you get an advantage of about 4-1. No chance in hell your short range missile would spot the Su-35 before it's OLS spots you.

The BVR capabilities are not useful considering the ranges involved. The Su-35 will be able to evade anything you fire at it if you stay out of detection range.

you still blindly believe the russian Su-35 campaign propaganda, there is no way Su-35 can go up against F-22, neither can match it per capability nor in any real time war senario...in air combat nowadays how many fighters can operation in a theater is limited, its not like your wishful thinking like 100s of 35 flying up against like 15 of F-22, there is a communication, command and control channels capacity which are all limited.

in real war senario it is stupid to send one F-22 to deal with swarming Su-35s, what is important is combat efficienvy which Su-35 is seriouly lack behind F-22 (even F-18E/F, F-16 Block60 and silent Egle)..

and you keep insisting Su-35 can easily evade AIM-120, but dont you know the fact the reason called 'Non-escape zoon' is because within that certain range (in this case 50KM) is the zoon the killing ration is siginificently high if you dont take drastic measures. Su-35 has to pull its arse-off to get a little chance of surviving the first wave of BVR attacks, even if it succeed Su-35 will not have the AoA, speed, altitude and energy figure to win a dogfight.

and you insist that the Optical sensors can pick up F-22 50KM away, this is even more wishful thinking.. they always quote the range acheived in optimum condition against the easy targets like big cargo plane or huge fighters like Flanker family or F-15s (early version), but it would be lucky to spot F-22 within 30 KM distance, and even it is spot again its all far too late to do anything..... and if Su-35 desperately fired a volley of R-77s, before turning to evade incoming BVRAAMs, they are very unlikely to hit F-22.

You might argue that R-77 is a 'Fire-forget' missile, but you have to understand the missile's active radar can only give a solid lock on 5 RCS target at maximum (again optimum condition) 20KM, but a target like F-22 has a 0.001 RCS it simply needs the launching platform to send constant tracking info to the missile to stay on course, but the launching platform is busy evading incoming AIM-120Cs they simply cant point its nose to the target, so its like shooting a fly in 100m distance with an AK-47!!!

 

[amalakas]

you still blindly believe the russian Su-35 campaign propaganda, there is no way Su-35 can go up against F-22, neither can match it per capability nor in any real time war senario...in air combat nowadays how many fighters can operation in a theater is limited, its not like your wishful thinking like 100s of 35 flying up against like 15 of F-22, there is a communication, command and control channels which are all limited.

in real war senario it is stupid to send one F-22 to deal with swarming Su-35s, what is important is combat efficienvy which Su-35 is seriouly lack behind F-22 (even F-18E/F, F-16 Block60 and silent Egle)..

and you keep insisting Su-35 can easily evade AIM-120, but dont you know the fact the reason called 'Non-escape zoon' is because within that certain range (in this case 50KM) is the zoon, the killing ration is siginificently high if you dont take drastic measures. Su-35 has to pull its arse-off to get a little chance of surviving the first wave of BVR attacks, even if it succeed Su-35 will not have the AoA, speed, altitude and energy figure to win a dogfight.

and you insist that the Optical sensors can pick up F-22 50KM away, this is even more wishful thinking.. they always quote the range acheived in optimum condition against the easy target like big cargo plane or huge fighters like Flanker family or F-15s (early version), but it would be luck to spot F-22 within 30 KM distance, and even it is spot again its all far too late to day anything..... and if Su-35 desperately fired a volley of R-77s, before turning to evade incoming BVRAAMs, they are very unlikely to hit F-22.

You might argue that R-77 is a 'Fire-forget' missile, but you have to understand the missile's active radar can only give a solid lock on 5 RCS target at maximum (again optimum condition) 20KM, but a target like F-22 has a 0.001 RCS it simply needs the launching platform to give constant tracking info to the missile to stay on course, but the launching platform is busy evading incoming AIM-120Cs they simply cant point its nose to the target, so its like shooting a fly in 100m distance with an AK-47!!!

Wrong.

The 'no escape zone' for the missile is a varied thing, depending on the shot parameters, speed, range, altitude etc.

In reality if you fire 10 missiles within the 'no escape zone' even against straight flying drones, you won't get 10 hits.

The Su-35s (BM) has indeed the capability (as do most other Su-27 family planes) but mostly the Su-35s because of its uprated engines to evade incoming volleys of missiles. And no, it will not lose AoA, speed, or kinetic energy, if anything, usually it will end up with more energy but pointing at the wrong angle ...

This however is not a victory for either side, although the F-22 has denied access to the airspace to the Su-35s, something that in itself is crucial for operations.

It is likely that the Su-(27 to 35s) will see the F-22 in their IRSTs if the F-22s indeed come closer to assure a shorter reaction time from their enemies, but that engagement will be even shorter than before, the F-22s will launch, the Su's will launch and both parties will get the hell out of there as fast as they can ...

 

[SQ8]

The Su-35 optical locator system has a head-on detection range of 50km. That is well outside the no-escape zone of the AMRAAM (and no-escape zones are a bit deceptive, since they assume the aircraft tries to outrun the missile rather than using jamming and/or doppler beaming). The Irbis-E detection range against the F-22 is about 30km head-on, and it will be significantly better from an angle.

Your assumption is on the basis that the OLS will spot an F-22 at its extreme range.. again assuming BEST case scenario's... that too if the raptor approaches at an angle.. after burning. Such does not happen.. nor will happen.
The OLS will at best pick the F-22 up after the AMRAAM's are already in the air.

If the F-18SH's APG-79 has trouble picking up the F-22 at anything less than 15km.. and that too without a lock.
I doubt the IRBIS-E can do even half better than that.

 

[Jungibaaz]

Volleys are not much harder to evade than a single missile. Doppler beaming will evade all of them. Or you can just outrun them. And no, it does not have much of a safety zone. The Irbis-E is a very powerful radar, and the Su-35 optical locator system is very effective.

That's true, but the R-77 with infrared seeker range can lock on at a pretty decent range, and the Su-35 optical locater system might be able to feed datalink updates to the active version of the R-77.

I've read some of your posts here....

Honestly, I think it's very unlikely that Su-35BM would win in such an engagement. Please do consider that the F-22 is designed not to be a lone wolf, it is designed to have some sort of AWACS support or a coupled with another fighter, be it another F-22.

Now we've been using AIM-120C, Now take into account that F-22s have AIM-120D, and also take into account the advantages of firing away an AMRAAM during supercruise.... missile range is increased by a lot.

and as for tracking the Su-35BM, it shouldn't really be a problem, some people are under the strange impression that it has a low RCS, it is very low for a Flanker sure, but it is a good size target for F-22's, also taking into account exposed weapons on the Flanker, it may just be able to dip below 4-5m2 if it's lucky.

The F-22 will detect first and fire first. Now you've implied that evading AMRAAMs will be somewhat of a walk in the park.
It is likely that the F-22 can get the Su-35 within the AMRAAM's NEZ! and well... a NEZ is a NEZ. Due to ranges it can be fired at without giving away it's position, Su-35s will be busy trying to evade the AMRAAMs rather trying to engage the source which they can't see.

Even if the F-22 is outnumbered by the Su-35BM, chances are F-22 will take them out.

Now in reality, F-22 wont be at all alone, you can expect at least 2 raptors up in the air, one painting the other gearing up to kill.
and in that scenario F-22(s) can ripple fire, since they are no longer limited to only 6 AMRAAM.

 

[DrSomnath999]

I've read some of your posts here....

Honestly, I think it's very unlikely that Su-35BM would win in such an engagement. Please do consider that the F-22 is designed not to be a lone wolf, it is designed to have some sort of AWACS support or a coupled with another fighter, be it another F-22.

Now we've been using AIM-120C, Now take into account that F-22s have AIM-120D, and also take into account the advantages of firing away an AMRAAM during supercruise.... missile range is increased by a lot.

and as for tracking the Su-35BM, it shouldn't really be a problem, some people are under the strange impression that it has a low RCS, it is very low for a Flanker sure, but it is a good size target for F-22's, also taking into account exposed weapons on the Flanker, it may just be able to dip below 4-5m2 if it's lucky.

The F-22 will detect first and fire first. Now you've implied that evading AMRAAMs will be somewhat of a walk in the park.
It is likely that the F-22 can get the Su-35 within the AMRAAM's NEZ! and well... a NEZ is a NEZ. Due to ranges it can be fired at without giving away it's position, Su-35s will be busy trying to evade the AMRAAMs rather trying to engage the source which they can't see.

Even if the F-22 is outnumbered by the Su-35BM, chances are F-22 will take them out.

Now in reality, F-22 wont be at all alone, you can expect at least 2 raptors up in the air, one painting the other gearing up to kill.
and in that scenario F-22(s) can ripple fire, since they are no longer limited to only 6 AMRAAM.

well brother,21 st century BVR warfare depends upon superior radar (Most probably x band AESA radar ) to detect stealthy targets ,LOng range bvr MISSILES well US's aimraam 120 c7 ,or D & russian R 77 PD ,but the real no escape zone of Bvr warfare is 60 -70 km .
Also to dodge radar guided missiles they need to have super manuverabilty & advanced counter measures .Well the problem is
US F22 is superioir to Su35 in all departments right now ,so F22 is clear winner in BVR warfare .
But within bvr warfare though F22 have stealth nozzles but still it can be locked on with infra red guided missiles .So in within bVR warfare F22 can be shot down

 

[PERSIAN GOD KING]

Is this the j-20? how many fifth gen planes is china planning to make? whats the j18 and j21??

 

[rcrmj]

Is this the j-20? how many fifth gen planes is china planning to make? whats the j18 and j21??

this one is not CAC J-20, it is supposed to be SAC's J-2X, dont have confirmed No. of how many types 5th gen China is going to make``but at least 2 for sure

 

[NeutralCitizen]

this one is not CAC J-20, it is supposed to be SAC's J-2X, dont have confirmed No. of how many types 5th gen China is going to make``but at least 2 for sure

what of stealth fighter the snowy owl j-16 ?