SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

[Kompromat]

Project Azm is designed to internalise:

1: Materials
2: Software
3: Design skills
4: Test, Evaluation and Certification
5: Air Ordnance design & development
6: Unmanned Technologies

First, they might go for JF-17 Block-4, to internalise 4.5+ generation technology, then use that experience for a 5+ generation aircraft project. The capabilities you mentioned is exactly what this project tries to develop.

Azm "should" be an existing design, partnered with a 3rd country with a greater content of local systems and more local manufacturing. As to what it will be, no one knows,

You are right, Pakistan has no experience in designing aeroplanes, only a few small drones to date. India has demonstrated that when you follow a reverse order in your development path, you end up with a jet that also only ever fly’s backwards.

Had they gone in the order below, they would have ended up with a far better product in the Tejas than what they have currently.

HTT40 -> HJT-36 -> Tejas

The path that India chose was born out of arrogance and perceived brahmin superiority, once that has proven to be quite incorrect!!!!

Pakistan has gradually built up their capabilities via Mushtaq, K8 and now JF17 ( the correct order), this has ONLY been in the manufacturing space, not in design.

I think Azm will be the next link in the chain, but only in the manufacturing space. Pakistan as a country lacks the depth of intellecutal talent to have the correct level of talent pool to conduct a R&D project of this nature. Had Pakistan invested in better schools, more colleges and universities with a focus on science and engineering and broadened that to a much wider portion of her population, then they could had the skills to design something like the Mushtaq about now.. but they didn't....

Is PAF as arrogant on their perceived capabilities as the Indians.. possibily...

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Project Azm is designed to internalise:

1: Materials
2: Software
3: Design skills
4: Test, Evaluation and Certification
5: Air Ordnance design & development
6: Unmanned Technologies

First, they might go for JF-17 Block-4, to internalise 4.5+ generation technology, then use that experience for a 5+ generation aircraft project. The capabilities you mentioned is exactly what this project tries to develop.

Azm seems to be clean sheet, but that doesn't mean Pakistan is doing it alone. The previous CAS clearly said China was involved in some capacity.

 

[M16174]

Might I be wrong, but I personally think that, Jf17 blk 3 and 4 are steps being taken for our self made next stealth AC.

As mentioned by Alan Wales , 5th gen is project of PAF for 2040>
Do you really think If America is keeping eye over PAF regarding sharing of f16 blk52 technology with China, then would China share its J20 or J31 with Pakistan.
USA never did share anything about f22, nor will china share their weak points to Pakistan with fear of lots of CIA agents present in PK to steal such technology.
As did Alan say about J10.

We really need to do something on our own. I like this thing that Pakistanis are best to find solution of problem but sad to see ,they just find it not implement it.

 

[LeGenD]

Might I be wrong, but I personally think that, Jf17 blk 3 and 4 are steps being taken for our self made next stealth AC.

As mentioned by Alan Wales , 5th gen is project of PAF for 2040>
Do you really think If America is keeping eye over PAF regarding sharing of f16 blk52 technology with China, then would China share its J20 or J31 with Pakistan.
USA never did share anything about f22, nor will china share their weak points to Pakistan with fear of lots of CIA agents present in PK to steal such technology.
As did Alan say about J10.

We really need to do something on our own. I like this thing that Pakistanis are best to find solution of problem but sad to see ,they just find it not implement it.

We can approach Turkey.

They have contributions in F-35 program.

 

[ziaulislam]

Azm "should" be an existing design, partnered with a 3rd country with a greater content of local systems and more local manufacturing. As to what it will be, no one knows,

You are right, Pakistan has no experience in designing aeroplanes, only a few small drones to date. India has demonstrated that when you follow a reverse order in your development path, you end up with a jet that also only ever fly’s backwards.

Had they gone in the order below, they would have ended up with a far better product in the Tejas than what they have currently.

HTT40 -> HJT-36 -> Tejas

The path that India chose was born out of arrogance and perceived brahmin superiority, once that has proven to be quite incorrect!!!!

Pakistan has gradually built up their capabilities via Mushtaq, K8 and now JF17 ( the correct order), this has ONLY been in the manufacturing space, not in design.

I think Azm will be the next link in the chain, but only in the manufacturing space. Pakistan as a country lacks the depth of intellecutal talent to have the correct level of talent pool to conduct a R&D project of this nature. Had Pakistan invested in better schools, more colleges and universities with a focus on science and engineering and broadened that to a much wider portion of her population, then they could had the skills to design something like the Mushtaq about now.. but they didn't....

Is PAF as arrogant on their perceived capabilities as the Indians.. possibily...

I would disagree..under license production is manufacturing only. Pakistan was involved and LEARNED at design stage from jf-17, k8, and mushaq (super mushaq)...it didnt simply produced blue prints..

 

[GriffinsRule]

I would disagree..under license production is manufacturing only. Pakistan was involved and LEARNED at design stage from jf-17, k8, and mushaq (super mushaq)...it didnt simply produced blue prints..

You are incorrect on the Mushshak (we bought the license and manufacturing rights from Sweden) and very little information is available, if any, of any Pakistani involvement in the K-8, beyond our 25% share in its manufacturing. Americans were involved in that program at the onset, which later they withdrew from of course.

 

[messiach]

Two examples from chinese LoCon programme & one from an unknown source. The stumbling block would be the turbine. Its the same two decades old story around FC1 turbines being repeated again.

I would agree with the 6 points of @Horus also including development of airforce space command.

Azm seems to be clean sheet, but that doesn't mean Pakistan is doing it alone. The previous CAS clearly said China was involved in some capacity.

 

[ziaulislam]

You are incorrect on the Mushshak (we bought the license and manufacturing rights from Sweden) and very little information is available, if any, of any Pakistani involvement in the K-8, beyond our 25% share in its manufacturing. Americans were involved in that program at the onset, which later they withdrew from of course.

super mushaq was comprehensive upgrade, read about it

 

[SQ8]

Interesting. Lets wait for Ideas then. @Oscar @MastanKhan

Interim fighters were highly dependent upon economic conditions; however the lean was on the EF.

 

[CriticalThought]

In terms of advancing learning and capability development, Turkey is a natural partner for fifth gen project. Here is how it should ideally unfold:

1. Both Turkey and Pakistan invest in J-31 to setup the production infrastructure - lathe machines, technicians, supply chains etc. They can now start producing a fifth gen fighter.
2. At the same time, they should start developing infrastructure for core design and testing. Wind tunnels, computational power and software for designing, RCS measurement tools, anechoic chambers etc.
3. When the design needs to move into testing phase, utilize the production infrastructure in 1 above to create the entirely new design. Hopefully, the design will be an incremental change so existing methods can be employed. Otherwise, they will need to bring in expertise in precision engineering, joining and welding to create the new design.
4. Take it through wind tunnel tests etc.
5. Iterate until a prototype is ready for flying.

This should be the general pattern to be followed. It naturally provides the interim fighter at a low cost, and also leads to capability development. Now think about this: PAC is well placed to follow these steps for some kind of Thunder variant. And that would be a VERY good start. Here is my intuition: we have a contract for 150 Thunders on 58% workshare basis. This should end with Block 3. So I predict some of these steps will be followed for Block 4.

@Oscar @messiach @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

 

[Thorough Pro]

We will not develop until and unless we stop looking at China and Turkey. We MUST start our own indigenous program from scratch if we want to develop talent and skill in Pakistan. If budget is the constraint then start designing and manufacturing scale model drones to at least get some knowhow of airframe aerodynamics, wind tunnel testing, and measuring flying performance at university level, while continuing research on other key areas like radars, weapons, EW, etc.

In terms of advancing learning and capability development, Turkey is a natural partner for fifth gen project. Here is how it should ideally unfold:

1. Both Turkey and Pakistan invest in J-31 to setup the production infrastructure - lathe machines, technicians, supply chains etc. They can now start producing a fifth gen fighter.
2. At the same time, they should start developing infrastructure for core design and testing. Wind tunnels, computational power and software for designing, RCS measurement tools, anechoic chambers etc.
3. When the design needs to move into testing phase, utilize the production infrastructure in 1 above to create the entirely new design. Hopefully, the design will be an incremental change so existing methods can be employed. Otherwise, they will need to bring in expertise in precision engineering, joining and welding to create the new design.
4. Take it through wind tunnel tests etc.
5. Iterate until a prototype is ready for flying.

This should be the general pattern to be followed. It naturally provides the interim fighter at a low cost, and also leads to capability development. Now think about this: PAC is well placed to follow these steps for some kind of Thunder variant. And that would be a VERY good start. Here is my intuition: we have a contract for 150 Thunders on 58% workshare basis. This should end with Block 3. So I predict some of these steps will be followed for Block 4.

@Oscar @messiach @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

 

[CriticalThought]

We will not develop until and unless we stop looking at China and Turkey. We MUST start our own indigenous program from scratch if we want to develop talent and skill in Pakistan. If budget is the constraint then start designing and manufacturing scale model drones to at least get some knowhow of airframe aerodynamics, wind tunnel testing, and measuring flying performance at university level, while continuing research on other key areas like radars, weapons, EW, etc.

There is the design aspect and the industrial aspect. The only realistic way is to obtain the industrial aspect from China.

 

[serenity]

We will not develop until and unless we stop looking at China and Turkey. We MUST start our own indigenous program from scratch if we want to develop talent and skill in Pakistan. If budget is the constraint then start designing and manufacturing scale model drones to at least get some knowhow of airframe aerodynamics, wind tunnel testing, and measuring flying performance at university level, while continuing research on other key areas like radars, weapons, EW, etc.

This costs too much. You can do it but it will come with more costs because you are developing everything from scratch.

 

[rcrmj]

they just smoke too much cannabis,but they are not alone, here we have iranis,indians,S.koreas are smoking cannabis like no tommorw.
the only two possible can develope a 5th G fighter now are united europe and jap

even worse than India, leave Jap, it is too much overated for military tech, there is a very big, big, big gap between civilian and military tech systems``````people from my circle dont even talk about Japan in this field````

however, they make superb small bits and bots, that I have to say`````well, they just cant put them all together to work perfectly````

 

[MastanKhan]

Two examples from chinese LoCon programme & one from an unknown source. The stumbling block would be the turbine. Its the same two decades old story around FC1 turbines being repeated again.

I would agree with the 6 points of @Horus also including development of airforce space command.

Hi,

To a person with some intellect---that would a signal enough to understand the level of difficulty---but the level of thoughtlessness amongst young pakistanis is so severe that they have no clue what that means---.

What that means is that manufacturing a successful modern fighter aircraft engine maybe a 1000 times more difficult than manufacturing an atom bomb---.