SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

[dBSPL]

I do not want to digress, but made quite erroneous determinations exist without enough information about Turkey's current installed capacity , contracts in progress in the international arena, as well as on ongoing infrastructure investments and guarantees legal and financial...

We expect to reach more than 70% of the sub-system by 2025. Because many projects for many years now began to become the final product. If there is a curiosity, we can evaluate more than 100 subsystems in its topic. The main problem is trying to exceed original mainframe design certification process in Turkey. The first step was the Hurkus project (and also included AESA certification process) was successfully completed. The second step will be the Hurjet LIFT. Turkey has the capacity of an important modernization projects but more importantly, completed their own first mission computers like OZGUR project almost 10 years ago . Together with the Hurjet project, the existing 4.5 generation systems and other ongoing projects will be tested for the first time on an indeginous design. TFX is a very long-term project, marathon and another topic.

Ok, i go back to the subject.And again I like to mention that the idea of having a common aviation infrastructure with Turkey's "in all circumstances allies / brother" countries like Pakistan. If I'm analyzing the situation correctly, I think that there is such a projection.

If China allows the integration of its technology (i mean which opened to Pakistan before and now) into Turkish systems, , Pakistan and Turkey (and indirectly, China) can establish a common aviation infrastructure in 30 years projection. If This common infrastructure to be established by Pakistan and Turkey, may followed by some countries like Russian natural market countries in Central Asia, and some US market in the Middle East/euro-asia

In other words, the fact that China plays a positive role in Turkish-Pakistani defense relations can produces both strategic and economic benefits. And as far as I can understand , the Chinese state will act rationally in this field. For example, I presume, we will see advanced derivative MILGEM classes at Karaçi Shipyard with bearing Chinese EW and Weapon systems.

PS
In addition, I need to specify: It is very important for Pakistan to establish the infrastructure that will produce 5 gen of jet within its own borders. That's what matters. Each other question is secondary. Because Pakistan is the eastern castle of our people. Pakistan's survival in aviation is more important than anything else.

 

[GriffinsRule]

super mushaq was comprehensive upgrade, read about it

Thanks, I know enough about Super Mushshak to know that all the upgrade work was done with the help out outside firms. Who do you think supplies the newer engine, propellers, or all the updated cockpit instrumentation.

Anyways, an upgrade is not the same as designing the aircraft from bare bones. In the end, its still a Swedish design

 

[CriticalThought]

I do not want to digress, but made quite erroneous determinations exist without enough information about Turkey's current installed capacity , contracts in progress in the international arena, as well as on ongoing infrastructure investments and guarantees legal and financial...

We expect to reach more than 70% of the sub-system by 2025. Because many projects for many years now began to become the final product. If there is a curiosity, we can evaluate more than 100 subsystems in its topic. The main problem is trying to exceed original mainframe design certification process in Turkey. The first step was the Hurkus project (and also included AESA certification process) was successfully completed. The second step will be the Hurjet LIFT. Turkey has the capacity of an important modernization projects but more importantly, completed their own first mission computers like OZGUR project almost 10 years ago . Together with the Hurjet project, the existing 4.5 generation systems and other ongoing projects will be tested for the first time on an indeginous design. TFX is a very long-term project, marathon and another topic.

Ok, i go back to the subject.And again I like to mention that the idea of having a common aviation infrastructure with Turkey's "in all circumstances allies / brother" countries like Pakistan. If I'm analyzing the situation correctly, I think that there is such a projection.

If China allows the integration of its technology (i mean which opened to Pakistan before and now) into Turkish systems, , Pakistan and Turkey (and indirectly, China) can establish a common aviation infrastructure in 30 years projection. If This common infrastructure to be established by Pakistan and Turkey, may followed by some countries like Russian natural market countries in Central Asia, and some US market in the Middle East/euro-asia

In other words, the fact that China plays a positive role in Turkish-Pakistani defense relations can produces both strategic and economic benefits. And as far as I can understand , the Chinese state will act rationally in this field. For example, I presume, we will see advanced derivative MILGEM classes at Karaçi Shipyard with bearing Chinese EW and Weapon systems.

PS
In addition, I need to specify: It is very important for Pakistan to establish the infrastructure that will produce 5 gen of jet within its own borders. That's what matters. Each other question is secondary. Because Pakistan is the eastern castle of our people. Pakistan's survival in aviation is more important than anything else.

Thanks, a very sensible post.

 

[messiach]

Interesting.

Interim fighters were highly dependent upon economic conditions; however the lean was on the EF.

FC1 was a no go w/o russian assisstance. Wth an industrial base on respirator, your best option as they say - 'Boss is always right. When Boss is wrong, read rule number One.'

In terms of advancing learning and capability development, Turkey is a natural partner for fifth gen project. Here is how it should ideally unfold:

1. Both Turkey and Pakistan invest in J-31 to setup the production infrastructure - lathe machines, technicians, supply chains etc. They can now start producing a fifth gen fighter.
2. At the same time, they should start developing infrastructure for core design and testing. Wind tunnels, computational power and software for designing, RCS measurement tools, anechoic chambers etc.
3. When the design needs to move into testing phase, utilize the production infrastructure in 1 above to create the entirely new design. Hopefully, the design will be an incremental change so existing methods can be employed. Otherwise, they will need to bring in expertise in precision engineering, joining and welding to create the new design.
4. Take it through wind tunnel tests etc.
5. Iterate until a prototype is ready for flying.

This should be the general pattern to be followed. It naturally provides the interim fighter at a low cost, and also leads to capability development. Now think about this: PAC is well placed to follow these steps for some kind of Thunder variant. And that would be a VERY good start. Here is my intuition: we have a contract for 150 Thunders on 58% workshare basis. This should end with Block 3. So I predict some of these steps will be followed for Block 4.

@Oscar @messiach @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

If chinese can do it, we could have also done it.

Thanks to turram khans like ijlal H zaidi & bullshitters like jamaat shah, we are where we are. These wretched souls & the mafias behind them raped this country. If atall, justice was possible.....

Hi,
What that means is that manufacturing a successful modern fighter aircraft engine maybe a 1000 times more difficult than manufacturing an atom bomb---.

 

[MastanKhan]

Interesting.


FC1 was a no go w/o russian assisstance. Wth an industrial base on respirator, your best option as they say - 'Boss is always right. When Boss is wrong, read rule number One.'



If chinese can do it, we could have also done it.

Thanks to turram khans like ijlal H zaidi & bullshitters like jamaat shah, we are where we are. These wretched souls & the mafias behind them raped this country. If atall, justice was possible.....

Hi,

You are right in what you are saying---. If you had progressed at that time---we could have had a reasonable aircraft engine---.

 

[messiach]

Although it's almost a 3 decade old story now but even more relevant today than ever before. Look at the implications,....we are w/o hydro-electricity & and a non-exsistent lifeless small/lo-med/med-hi industrial base. The water&power, finance divisions largely responsible have always always been dominated by 'allete sections' of urdu speaking so-called educated community & that is an unbiased, qualified statement with documented facts to back it up.

Hi,
If you had progressed at that time---we could have had a reasonable aircraft engine---.

 

[The Accountant]

Although it's almost a 3 decade old story now but even more relevant today than ever before. Look at the implications,....we are w/o hydro-electricity & and a non-exsistent lifeless small/lo-med/med-hi industrial base. The water&power, finance divisions largely responsible have always always been dominated by 'allete sections' of urdu speaking so-called educated community & that is an unbiased, qualified statement with documented facts to back it up.

This is so stupid of you to bring secterian differences here ... urdu speaking community was long removed from top bureaucratic levels back in 70s by bhutto and that was the same period the decline started ... sorry to see that you are not only miss quoting the facts by trying to create secterian divide ... only an insane person can say that water power and finance divisions are dominated by urdu speaking ... even the quota sysyem dont allow more than 2 to 3 percent of beaurecrates from karachi then how the hell urdu speaking can dominate 2 ministeries ?

 

[MastanKhan]

Although it's almost a 3 decade old story now but even more relevant today than ever before. Look at the implications,....we are w/o hydro-electricity & and a non-exsistent lifeless small/lo-med/med-hi industrial base. The water&power, finance divisions largely responsible have always always been dominated by 'allete sections' of urdu speaking so-called educated community & that is an unbiased, qualified statement with documented facts to back it up.

Hi,

Thank you for bringing that up---. The sectarian difference was real---.

You are talking about time 30 plus years ago---.

 

[messiach]

Interesting.

urdu speaking community was long removed from top bureaucratic levels back in 70s by bhutto and that was the same period the decline started ...

Even better.

....only an insane person can say that water power and finance divisions are dominated by urdu speaking ... even the quota sysyem dont allow more than 2 to 3 percent of beaurecrates from karachi

 

[Dazzler]

Interesting.


Even better.

What do you mean by that?

 

[messiach]

MK , I know these leeches very well. They sucked the life away & pose as monks. I met Dr Mubashir Hasan few years ago in lahore. Perhaps you know him! He will tell you how these 'monks' liquidated pakistan as their private property.

Hi,
Thank you for bringing that up---. The sectarian difference was real---.

Since this was expected, i quantified it - 'allete sections' of urdu speaking. I can name names. No problem.

trying to create secterian divide

 

[MastanKhan]

MK , I know these leeches very well. They sucked the life away & pose as monks. I met Dr Mubashir Hasan few years ago in lahore. Perhaps you know him! He will tell you how these 'monks' liquidated pakistan as their private property.



Since this was expected, i quantified it - 'allete sections' of urdu speaking. I can name names. No problem.

Hi,

Bhutto only removed a very few of them---and I am not being prejudicial---.

 

[Thorough Pro]

What is PAC's contribution in that?
Unless you rollup your dhoti and sleeves, nothing will ever be achieved.
Success rides on the back of failures, and failures teach you what no collaboration, cooperation, or TOT can ever teach. To learn to swim you have to get wet and let go off of floating supports.

Might I be wrong, but I personally think that, Jf17 blk 3 and 4 are steps being taken for our self made next stealth AC.

As mentioned by Alan Wales , 5th gen is project of PAF for 2040>
Do you really think If America is keeping eye over PAF regarding sharing of f16 blk52 technology with China, then would China share its J20 or J31 with Pakistan.
USA never did share anything about f22, nor will china share their weak points to Pakistan with fear of lots of CIA agents present in PK to steal such technology.
As did Alan say about J10.

We really need to do something on our own. I like this thing that Pakistanis are best to find solution of problem but sad to see ,they just find it not implement it.

That is the only way to get experience based knowledge, a key ingredient to grow in any area. There is a difference in getting expertise and hiring experts. Self sufficiency comes from former, not later.

This costs too much. You can do it but it will come with more costs because you are developing everything from scratch.

In a layman's terms I call that knowing
What to do (Design aspect), and
How to do (Industrial aspect)

Unless you have mastered the first, second is useless.
For example there are millions of mechanics who can run a lathe and copy a sample, but they can not produce an original working part unless someone with that knowledge provides them with a design.

There is the design aspect and the industrial aspect. The only realistic way is to obtain the industrial aspect from China.

The thread just went south a few posts above.

 

[CriticalThought]

What is PAC's contribution in that?
Unless you rollup your dhoti and sleeves, nothing will ever be achieved.
Success rides on the back of failures, and failures teach you what no collaboration, cooperation, or TOT can ever teach. To learn to swim you have to get wet and let go off of floating supports.





That is the only way to get experience based knowledge, a key ingredient to grow in any area. There is a difference in getting expertise and hiring experts. Self sufficiency comes from former, not later.



In a layman's terms I call that knowing
What to do (Design aspect), and
How to do (Industrial aspect)

Unless you have mastered the first, second is useless.
For example there are millions of mechanics who can run a lathe and copy a sample, but they can not produce an original working part unless someone with that knowledge provides them with a design.




The thread just went south a few posts above.

For cutting edge projects, the design actually drives the industrial manufacturing. For the SR-71, entirely new tooling had to be invented to shape and join titanium alloys. That is like the zenith of manufacturing capability.

 

[The Accountant]

MK , I know these leeches very well. They sucked the life away & pose as monks. I met Dr Mubashir Hasan few years ago in lahore. Perhaps you know him! He will tell you how these 'monks' liquidated pakistan as their private property.



Since this was expected, i quantified it - 'allete sections' of urdu speaking. I can name names. No problem.

I can name elites of other communities as well ... and they r much higher in numbers ...

Hi,

Bhutto only removed a very few of them---and I am not being prejudicial---.

Yes but transferred all of them to other counteries as counsulate officers as bureacracy of that time was very powerful and bhutto was power hungry ... he promoted persons of his choice on secretary level and introduced quotas to make sure that bureaucracy keep on coming from small ruler class that can be controlled and manupilated and the strong and highly skilled educated individuals do not join bureaucracy to keep upper hand of politicians ... there is a reason that Pakistan grew leaps and bounds in first two decades as it was being run by professionals in bureaucracy but bhutton change the laws to give decision making and execution powers to ministers which should have been limited to policy making only ... and result is known to everyone ...

Interesting.


Even better.

I used to respect you but now you not only lost my respect but i would like to say that if you cant contribute to my country by living here and face the problems then atleast try to not to create a divide ... people like you are the real culprit and fuel of divide and rule ... stay the hell out of affairs of my country if yoh contribute positively ...

What do you mean by that?

Thats a rediculous statement and obviously shiw the personalitg of the person ...