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SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

MK , I know these leeches very well. They sucked the life away & pose as monks. I met Dr Mubashir Hasan few years ago in lahore. Perhaps you know him! He will tell you how these 'monks' liquidated pakistan as their private property.



Since this was expected, i quantified it - 'allete sections' of urdu speaking. I can name names. No problem.
It goes both ways, the quota system eliminated a lot of good urdu speakers from the system.

It was an urdu speaker who headed the Abdali and Ghaznavi programs and it was an urdu speaker who laughed while the tanks at Kemari burned under Indian missiles...
 
It goes both ways, the quota system eliminated a lot of good urdu speakers from the system.

It was an urdu speaker who headed the Abdali and Ghaznavi programs and it was an urdu speaker who laughed while the tanks at Kemari burned under Indian missiles...
So do a punjabi, sindhi, balochi and pathan are ... there are good and bad people irrespective of nationality ... we knows that zardari is sindhi and NS is punjabi but do we say that punjabi politicians looted the whole Pakistan and transfer money abroad or a sindhi prime president looted 10% of every business transaction for good 5 years ? ... no because we understand that its is above community ... traitors are in all the community and same are patriotics ... but unfortunately few people are so naive that they bring own personal biased as a trend ...
 
It goes both ways, the quota system eliminated a lot of good urdu speakers from the system.

It was an urdu speaker who headed the Abdali and Ghaznavi programs and it was an urdu speaker who laughed while the tanks at Kemari burned under Indian missiles...

I am an Urdu speaker. And I bear witness to an entire generation wasted by Altaf Hussain.

My father was a staunch supporter, and I grew up fanatically looking up to Altaf Hussain. Until ninth grade when the mum of my Punjabi friend got to know about my affiliations. She sat down with me and painstakingly explained the problems with Altaf Hussain. She witnessed his antics first hand during early 80s in Karachi Uni. His favorite act was breaking soft drink bottles on the heads of opponents. His entire rise to power was based on brutality. Even during his escape, he had the guards accompanying him to the airport executed. That knocked a lot of sense into my head. I can't say the same for my father who remained a supporter till death.

My uncle was a sector incharge. He managed to reach Canada. He tells the story of a friend there who used to spontaneously fall into prostration all the time. When quizzed, he revealed that he tied someone behind a car/motorcycle and dragged him around. Each time he remembered that, he fell into prostration.

My cousin joined a technical college in Karachi. On his very first day, he was quizzed by a guy holding a very large knife. During one clash with JI students, the MQM APMSO gang fired a burst of AK-47 fire into a JI student's head, due to which his brain literally splattered on the wall.

The guy who used to come to tutor us at home was a previous unit incharge at a Karachi college. He used to boast about armed clashes with JI. They used to form positions around the college, the girls filling up magazines while the guys fired. Once during a takeover they tried breaking in using a car. His friend received a full burst to the stomach that caused the guts to spill out. He literally pushed them back with hands and rushed to the hospital.

There are a thousand and one such stories involving an entire generation. And there are reasons behind it.

During the early seventies, my father hobnobbed with Sindhi elite in a social club at a five star hotel. He spoke Sindhi so fluently, you could not discern he is actually an Urdu speaker. He heard people saying we are going to push these Muhajirs into the Arabian Sea. Fast forward to circa 2001 my cousin, who similarly speaks Sindhi, heard the exact same words in the Sindh Secretariat.

This exploitation isn't limited to only MQM. I got on the radar of JI activists during my college days. On day, a car started following me as I walked to college and the person driving insisted that I get in. Eventually I got into the car. Luckily he did drive me to the college but he also offered me to join JI which I tactfully refused. Then one day, I was reading in the library when two JI students sat next to me. They started talking to each other saying things like what is the use of studying? Why waste time with books? Blah blah. Thankfully I survived college.

I consider myself very different from most Urdu speakers. But decades if poisonous propaganda and organized marginalization have left them in a very bad intellectual state. Which is why we need education.

Education. Education. Education. That is what we need.
 
I am an Urdu speaker. And I bear witness to an entire generation wasted by Altaf Hussain.

My father was a staunch supporter, and I grew up fanatically looking up to Altaf Hussain. Until ninth grade when the mum of my Punjabi friend got to know about my affiliations. She sat down with me and painstakingly explained the problems with Altaf Hussain. She witnessed his antics first hand during early 80s in Karachi Uni. His favorite act was breaking soft drink bottles on the heads of opponents. His entire rise to power was based on brutality. Even during his escape, he had the guards accompanying him to the airport executed. That knocked a lot of sense into my head. I can't say the same for my father who remained a supporter till death.

My uncle was a sector incharge. He managed to reach Canada. He tells the story of a friend there who used to spontaneously fall into prostration all the time. When quizzed, he revealed that he tied someone behind a car/motorcycle and dragged him around. Each time he remembered that, he fell into prostration.

My cousin joined a technical college in Karachi. On his very first day, he was quizzed by a guy holding a very large knife. During one clash with JI students, the MQM APMSO gang fired a burst of AK-47 fire into a JI student's head, due to which his brain literally splattered on the wall.

The guy who used to come to tutor us at home was a previous unit incharge at a Karachi college. He used to boast about armed clashes with JI. They used to form positions around the college, the girls filling up magazines while the guys fired. Once during a takeover they tried breaking in using a car. His friend received a full burst to the stomach that caused the guts to spill out. He literally pushed them back with hands and rushed to the hospital.

There are a thousand and one such stories involving an entire generation. And there are reasons behind it.

During the early seventies, my father hobnobbed with Sindhi elite in a social club at a five star hotel. He spoke Sindhi so fluently, you could not discern he is actually an Urdu speaker. He heard people saying we are going to push these Muhajirs into the Arabian Sea. Fast forward to circa 2001 my cousin, who similarly speaks Sindhi, heard the exact same words in the Sindh Secretariat.

This exploitation isn't limited to only MQM. I got on the radar of JI activists during my college days. On day, a car started following me as I walked to college and the person driving insisted that I get in. Eventually I got into the car. Luckily he did drive me to the college but he also offered me to join JI which I tactfully refused. Then one day, I was reading in the library when two JI students sat next to me. They started talking to each other saying things like what is the use of studying? Why waste time with books? Blah blah. Thankfully I survived college.

I consider myself very different from most Urdu speakers. But decades if poisonous propaganda and organized marginalization have left them in a very bad intellectual state. Which is why we need education.

Education. Education. Education. That is what we need.
I am urdu speaking myself ... this all started in 1970s when we were the most educated community but them come the nationalization plus quota system ... so now the most of the jobs were with government organizations and that too with the quota sysyem ... so people were holding degrees spent their life in education but jobs were given to less educated based on quota system ... this kept on going for 1.5 decades and then people retaliated ... capital also moved to islamabad and that too resulted in significant lay offs ... what people were supposed to do ? MQM was created by university students out of their fear of being pushed back ... what it becomes is totally criminal ... Altaf Hussain is a bitch and killer but he was a whole community was pushed to this by people with mentality like @messiach who are even miss quoting the facts ...

Anyways politics of last 5 decades is about to end and plan to divide Pakistan on community basis is failling unless we have stupids in key positions that keep on highlighting those ...

Forgetting people like tikka khan and general niazi they put all the blames on persons who retaliated out of frustration ...

Why didnt mention the name of persons who brought aeroplanes full of cash from india and submitted all of them to government treasury ...

Anyways politics of last 5 decades based on communities should end as it was pathetic ... people like Altaf Hussain, NS, Zardari, Asfandyar, zulfiqar Mirza should be put to garbage bin and so do their supporter as they did all their best to divide the nation for own personnal benefit
 
I am an Urdu speaker. And I bear witness to an entire generation wasted by Altaf Hussain.
actually not one but three
- First generation of Altaf and his companions and elders
- Than Generation of kids during mid 80s and 90s
 
Hi,

It betrays common sense to go with Turkey on a JV for a 5th gen aircraft---when China---which is under massive threat from the US is pouring billions into its stealth program---.

And Paf would leave it to go with Turkey who hardly has any funds for such a massive venture---that is TREASON---.[/QUOTE
Turks r procuring f35 even make parts of its fuselage Turkey is the European hub of f35
Maintainace so they must have some knowhow and industrial base
We selected there irst Pods for jf17
Turks already working. With rolls Royce on engine
In case of j31 conflicting reports emerge time to time that its gonna be shelved
And then there is question of tech transfer

I believe pak would procure some j31as interim solution if they become operational as turks would procure f35 but both nations should work together using there experience of respective jets to develop tfx/azm
Turks r procuring f35 even make parts of its fuselage Turkey is the European hub of f35
Maintainace so they must have some knowhow and industrial base
We selected there irst Pods for jf17
Turks already working. With rolls Royce on engine
In case of j31 conflicting reports emerge time to time that its gonna be shelved
And then there is question of tech transfer

I believe pak would procure some j31as interim solution if they become operational as turks would procure f35 but both nations should work together using there experience of respective jets to develop tfx/azm
 
I am urdu speaking myself ... this all started in 1970s when we were the most educated community but them come the nationalization plus quota system ... so now the most of the jobs were with government organizations and that too with the quota sysyem ... so people were holding degrees spent their life in education but jobs were given to less educated based on quota system ... this kept on going for 1.5 decades and then people retaliated ... capital also moved to islamabad and that too resulted in significant lay offs ... what people were supposed to do ? MQM was created by university students out of their fear of being pushed back ... what it becomes is totally criminal ... Altaf Hussain is a bitch and killer but he was a whole community was pushed to this by people with mentality like @messiach who are even miss quoting the facts ...

Anyways politics of last 5 decades is about to end and plan to divide Pakistan on community basis is failling unless we have stupids in key positions that keep on highlighting those ...

Forgetting people like tikka khan and general niazi they put all the blames on persons who retaliated out of frustration ...

Why didnt mention the name of persons who brought aeroplanes full of cash from india and submitted all of them to government treasury ...

Anyways politics of last 5 decades based on communities should end as it was pathetic ... people like Altaf Hussain, NS, Zardari, Asfandyar, zulfiqar Mirza should be put to garbage bin and so do their supporter as they did all their best to divide the nation for own personnal benefit
Very well said. We as Pakistanis need to put this Sindhi, Balochi, Pathan, etc. crap behind us. I'm not dissing these identities...one can be a proud Punjabi or a proud Pathan...but this shouldn't get in the way of our nationality(Pakistani). This "us vs them" mentality is dangerous...it divides us. This is exactly what our enemies want...it's been done before with Bengalis(Bangladeshis). Yes tensions existed...unfairness occurred...but it was fueled and hatred was incited to the point of no return.

In this case too...among various ethnic groups in Pakistan...yes unfairness has occurred...but at the end of the day we should put in front of us the common cause, which is a strong prosperous Pakistan. Being divided and pointing fingers leads us in the opposite direction. Regardless of ethnicity we should bring to justice the corrupt traitors(like Altaf Hussein, Zardari, etc.) or if that's not possible, at the very least we should try to keep them out of power. Power should be given to those who are right for the job and have the qualities to be good leaders for the nation...again regardless of their ethnic background.

P.S. let's all try to come back to topic here...which is FC-31...bcuz otherwise this sectarian/ethnic crap is going to be a long discussion with no end in sight.
 
Pretty shallow and pathetic thinking shown by a supposedly knowledgeable member is indeed unfortunate. Mistakes were made by all and there is no reason to bring all that into this thread. Open another thread and discuss your regrets there.
 
I can name elites of other communities as well ... and they r much higher in numbers ...


Yes but transferred all of them to other counteries as counsulate officers as bureacracy of that time was very powerful and bhutto was power hungry ... he promoted persons of his choice on secretary level and introduced quotas to make sure that bureaucracy keep on coming from small ruler class that can be controlled and manupilated and the strong and highly skilled educated individuals do not join bureaucracy to keep upper hand of politicians ... there is a reason that Pakistan grew leaps and bounds in first two decades as it was being run by professionals in bureaucracy but bhutton change the laws to give decision making and execution powers to ministers which should have been limited to policy making only ... and result is known to everyone ...


I used to respect you but now you not only lost my respect but i would like to say that if you cant contribute to my country by living here and face the problems then atleast try to not to create a divide ... people like you are the real culprit and fuel of divide and rule ... stay the hell out of affairs of my country if yoh contribute positively ...


Thats a rediculous statement and obviously shiw the personalitg of the person ...

Hi,

Only if it was in black or white---.

when a knowledgeable person says all good that you want to hear is fine---but when you hear what you don't like---then there is a problem with that person---.
 
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A very knowledgeable and otherwise decent person can also make a pretty ordinary or offensive statement. Nobody is infallible. We all say or do something that is not acceptable to some.

We should only point out the person's folly and then move on. Because as no one is above reproach, being knowledgeable and generally decent doesn't give someone a carte blanche to say or opine whatever they think without caring for other's sensibilities. Nor should we completely dismiss such a person as an absolute wrong doer, in the context of the knowledge and insight that persons usually shares and provides.

I too am Urdu speaking and advise everyone to end all this and get back to the main topic FC-31.
 
@Oscar @The Accountant @everybodyelse

Quota or no quota is an irrelevant debate. The tensions between provincial bureacracy & CSP cadre in the centre apexed during late 90s with many postings and transfers on hold & many CEE cadre decisions landed at LHC doorsteps. Many SG&D officers i know personally, were send back to centre or 'khuddaylined'. The 'alletist group' in the centre that i mention more often than not, than realised that they were being exposed more often than not. It was now time for a face change. They came out with a plan which most honest CSP cadre including my own son calls 'Plan - lets get the hell out here'. The method that came out of this sinister plan was the '18th amendment' by virtue of which first they transferred all resources to the provinces & then very conveniently slipped out into provincial services with all the resources still in their lap. And worst of all this dubious honour of constitutional amendment was dropped on the shoulders of politicians, who gladly accepted all the responsibility. @Oscar quota system is a smoke screen, behind which this 'alletist group'' has committed henious crimes against this docile nation. I mean, this is like jews, whenever Anthony Sutton exposed their deeds under trilateral commision, they came out against him under the disguise and deception of anti-semitism. Whenever I try to expose their crimes against this nation, these blood thirsty pack of hounds try to hide behind quota system.

Anyways, the message is directed to an 'alletist group' & not to a language based community.

It goes both ways, the quota system eliminated a lot of good urdu speakers from the system.

It was an urdu speaker who headed the Abdali and Ghaznavi programs and it was an urdu speaker who laughed while the tanks at Kemari burned under Indian missiles...

Ok.
I am urdu speaking myself ... this all started in 1970s when we were the most educated community but them come the nationalization plus quota system ... so now the most of the jobs were with government organizations and that too with the quota sysyem ... so people were holding degrees spent their life in education but jobs were given to less educated based on quota system ... this kept on going for 1.5 decades and then people retaliated ... capital also moved to islamabad and that too resulted in significant lay offs ... what people were supposed to do ? MQM was created by university students out of their fear of being pushed back ... what it becomes is totally criminal ... Altaf Hussain is a bitch and killer but he was a whole community was pushed to this by people with mentality like @messiach who are even miss quoting the facts ...

Anyways politics of last 5 decades is about to end and plan to divide Pakistan on community basis is failling unless we have stupids in key positions that keep on highlighting those ...

Forgetting people like tikka khan and general niazi they put all the blames on persons who retaliated out of frustration ...

Why didnt mention the name of persons who brought aeroplanes full of cash from india and submitted all of them to government treasury ...

Anyways politics of last 5 decades based on communities should end as it was pathetic ... people like Altaf Hussain, NS, Zardari, Asfandyar, zulfiqar Mirza should be put to garbage bin and so do their supporter as they did all their best to divide the nation for own personnal benefit

I would like to know but only PM it. Their maybe entirely innocent names that you may never have met or known & they could be my friends or collegues of past.

Language is a great assett but when used to create administrative cartels, secluded caucuses within administration, power-houses within a government, that alienates and destroys. This has happened in the past.

I can name elites of other communities as well ... and they r much higher in numbers ...
 
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@Oscar @The Accountant @everybodyelse

Quota or no quota is an irrelevant debate. The tensions between provincial bureacracy & CSP cadre in the centre apexed during late 90s with many postings and transfers on hold & many CEE cadre decisions landed at LHC doorsteps. Many SG&D officers i know personally, were send back to centre or 'khuddaylined'. The 'alletist group' in the centre that i mention more often than not, than realised that they were being exposed more often than not. It was now time for a face change. They came out with a plan which most honest CSP cadre including my own son calls 'Plan - lets get the hell out here'. The method that came out of this sinister plan was the '18th amendment' by virtue of which first they transferred all resources to the provinces & then very conveniently slipped out into provincial services with all the resources still in their lap. And worst of all this dubious honour of constitutional amendment was dropped on the shoulders of politicians, who gladly accepted all the responsibility. @Oscar quota system is a smoke screen, behind which this 'alletist group'' has committed henious crimes against this docile nation. I mean, this is like jews, whenever Anthony Sutton exposed their deeds under trilateral commision, they came out against him under the disguise and deception of anti-semitism. Whenever I try to expose their crimes against this nation, these blood thirsty pack of hounds try to hide behind quota system.

Anyways, the message is directed to an 'alletist group' & not to a language based community.



Ok.
I think I know who you are referring to by name exactly as this group sidelined many of its own “ethnicity” and speaking group too. I think they shared some common religious sect too??
Much like one sees with the Ismailis and certain Bradri cases in Punjab and Sindh.
Wherever nepotism reigns, be it from any group .. it has ruined things. Just see the damage Ayub, Zia and Musharraf caused to the military merit.
 
Yes. Just bare facts.

I was at a briefing with a ranking CSP officer IHZ, for purposes of modesty i dont wish to name. During our conversation, i for the first time came to know of the 'hagelian dialect'. This was a CSP officer advising me howto & hownot to rule. Hagelian dialect is where you create a 'group' & then an 'anti-group' and then bring these two groups into a catastrophic but controlled conflict where you conrol the war, its objectives and the end. Now, this was a CSP officer talking. This is how this 'alletist group based on a language' used this country as an experimental pot for their dirty ends. These demons sucked the blood out of us and our children & hennce my sensitivity for this subject.


I think I know who you are referring to by name exactly as this group sidelined many of its own “ethnicity” and speaking group too. I think they shared some common religious sect too??
Much like one sees with the Ismailis and certain Bradri cases in Punjab and Sindh.
Wherever nepotism reigns, be it from any group .. it has ruined things. Just see the damage Ayub, Zia and Musharraf caused to the military merit.
I think I know who you are referring to by name exactly as this group sidelined many of its own “ethnicity” and speaking group too. I think they shared some common religious sect too??
Much like one sees with the Ismailis and certain Bradri cases in Punjab and Sindh.
Wherever nepotism reigns, be it from any group .. it has ruined things. Just see the damage Ayub, Zia and Musharraf caused to the military merit.
 
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Yes. Just bare facts.

I was at a briefing with a ranking CSP officer IHZ, for purposes of modesty i dont wish to name. During our conversation, i for the first time came to know of the 'hagelian dialect'. This was a CSP officer advising me howto & hownot to rule. Hagelian dialect is where you create a 'group' & then an 'anti-group' and then bring these two groups into a catastrophic but controlled conflict where you conrol the war, its objectives and the end. Now, this was a CSP officer talking. This is how this 'alletist group based on a language' used this country as an experimental pot for their dirty ends. These demons sucked the blood out of us and our children & hennce my sensitivity for this subject.
That is essentially a human issue and cannot be fixed overnight. Even in a well “integrated” society on the surface like the UK you will see it pop up

A gentleman who hailed from Ridoli in UP, graduate from Indian Naval academy and had his Pak Navy number in the early teens(12 or 13) and provided nav planning for Dwarka was
sidelined after he disagreed during 71 on operational decisions with one of these good ol boys group(Bhuttos flat and flabby ones) who were keen to keep decision making (to be interpreted as sitting around watching kemari burn while chugging drinks and commenting “what a lovely bonfire!”) and left as commodore.

Your experience is with one group, Ive lived in three provinces and everyone has black hands and feet with the stench of nepotism, racism and corruption all over.. be it a Punjabi or Pathan or whosoever.

But, kudos to those throughout the country who still fight and try to stave off such disasters to get things done.. they are a reason why we arent a vassal state or like Burma.
 
Hi to all learned and senior posters if we are still in j31 can you all please delete your irrelevant
Post as mods also a very busy person not have enough time to culminate all these irrelevant posts
I hope my senior colleague don’t mind
Thank you
 
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