SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

[Path-Finder]

https://twitter.com/x/status/934098092923719682

 

[araz]

TFX will be as good as a paper work, Turkey has no base, experience and technological-readness to develop 4th gen fighter let alone 5th, period !

You are being unfair to Turkey. The development in the aviation industry in Turkey needs to be researched by you. They built and had the software codes to their own F16s. This puts them at least at level with us if not further. Some of the work on ASELPOD is superior to the Chinese offerings to PAF.
A

 

[Deino]

... but Turkey develops 5th gen Jet Fighter ( will be the best Fighter in the World )

Pardon, I don't know what stuff You smoked but I want some too

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

If not the the best then one of the best. @Berkant has a point there.

Pardon, I don't know what stuff You smoked but I want some too

 

[Deino]

... nothing more than Turkish propaganda.

Could You please stop derailing this thread - which is on the FC-31 for Pakistan - with Your hyper nationalistic propaganda of any Turkish aerospace products?

If not the the best then one of the best. @Berkant has a point there.

No, he has not. ... all these projects, TFX, UAVs, carriers, helicopters and so on will burst like a soap-bubble because of rising inflation, internal political unrest and isolation, especially on the part of Europe. Most of them are nothing more than a wet dreams.

And now back to the topic this is for the FC-31 in Pakistan !

Deino

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

There is an interview from Retd AVM zulfiqar mentioning J20. ACM also has talked of PAF evaluating J20/J31. The point is all of a sudden people have started talking about the J20 after having heard that J20 is only for PLAAF.
A

I think the J-20 talk predates the Project Azm announcement. The PAF CAS seemed to be clear that the Project Azm fighter would be an original design. It's also important to remember that the PAF has experience working with CAC, not SAC. In terms of a next-gen fighter, it's possible that the PAF wants to work with CAC, especially since CAC has a serviceable 5th-gen fighter in its CV.

 

[araz]

I think the J-20 talk predates the Project Azm announcement. The PAF CAS seemed to be clear that the Project Azm fighter would be an original design. It's also important to remember that the PAF has experience working with CAC, not SAC. In terms of a next-gen fighter, it's possible that the PAF wants to work with CAC, especially since CAC has a serviceable 5th-gen fighter in its CV.

I personally think knowing PAF's modus operandi that there will be "significant input" from 3rd parties and multiple collaborators will result in our next fifth generation project. The help will be in nearly all departments including design. The design may be original but will have lots of input from other parties.
I understand that PAC and PAF is really upbeat but objectively a new generation design with no experience from earlier planes of the same generation is asking a bit too much. This remains my own assessment so maybe totally wrong.
A

 

[The Eagle]

Discussion w.r.t. credibility of other platform in favour of any nation, may please be moved and members are advised to tag concerned debaters in respective section/thread.

Regards,

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I personally think knowing PAF's modus operandi that there will be "significant input" from 3rd parties and multiple collaborators will result in our next fifth generation project. The help will be in nearly all departments including design. The design may be original but will have lots of input from other parties.
I understand that PAC and PAF is really upbeat but objectively a new generation design with no experience from earlier planes of the same generation is asking a bit too much. This remains my own assessment so maybe totally wrong.
A

Absolutely. Original design, but with strong external support.

 

[rcrmj]

You are being unfair to Turkey. The development in the aviation industry in Turkey needs to be researched by you. They built and had the software codes to their own F16s. This puts them at least at level with us if not further. Some of the work on ASELPOD is superior to the Chinese offerings to PAF.
A

not unfair, but too much overated by most of you people, their so-called software codes were all wirten based on the architect, coding rules and frames that was done by the U.S, these are the real part, writing extesion and additional mission codes are nothing````even my company can do that, when given the open source

and some people from my circle had worked with Turkish projects before, we know it well where Turkey really stands.
If I categorize the level of tech difficulties in four:
assembly
extension work
upgrade
R&D

Turkey is at the first step, it can be in the extension works if being optimistic

thats the hard reality, as it was also for us 2 decades ago

TURKEY produced under license F16 Fighter Jets and General Electric F110-GE-100 Engines for more than 25 years

Turkey has base, experience and technological-readness easly to develop 4th gen fighter ... but Turkey develops 5th gen Jet Fighter ( will be the best Fighter in the World )

-- Aselsan IFF (Friend or Foe) System
-- Aselsan SPEWS II Electronic Warfare Self Protection Suite
-- Aselsan GaN based AESA Radar
-- Aselsan ASELPOD Targeting Pod
-- Aselsan MEHPOD Jamming Pod
-- Tubitak - Sage SOM Cruise Missile
-- Tubitak - Sage HGK and KGK Smart Bombs
-- Tubitak - Sage GOKTUG BVR and VWR Air to Air Missiles
-- Aselsan TEBER Smart Bomb
-- Aselsan LGK Laser Guided Bomb

also Turkish TAI ANKA MALE Armed Drone ( UCAV ) SAR Radar+SATCOM+Laser Guided Missiles ( only The US,,Israel,,Turkey and China in the World )



also TURKEY started to develop new TAI ATAK-2 Attack Helicopter
-- 6-8 ton class new design
-- 2 x Turkish TEI TS-1400 Engines
-- Turkish Mission Computer
-- Turkish Aselsan Helicopter Electronic Warfare System
-- Turkish MILDAR milimetric wave fire control Radar ... ( 12 km range )
-- Turkish AVCI Helmet Integrated Cueing System (HICS)
-- 8 km Turkish CIRIT Laser guided Rocket
-- 8 km Turkish MIZRAK Laser guided Missile
-- 30 km Turkish TEMREN Missile
-- 22 km Turkish GOKTUG Air to Air Missile

to amatures, yes they all look flashy, but all of these you bragged are no more than a paper work if not for all the paid data and tech pakages from the West.
the data to make an efficient rotor blade, the data for ducted fan, the data for areodynamics, the software architect and frame for radar, sensors, and weapon system controls, the data to formulate missile fuel that is efficient and powerful, the machine tools and technological know-how packages to make sophisticated parts`````and not to mention all the core parts are imported.

so spare your Turkish propaganda and delusion, Turkey is a minor player in defense industry, just slightly ahead of India, but that due to your proximity to the West and ease to aquire best techs from Europe``````and btw, to your rocket technologies, you really have to thank us. because I mean your whole rocket industry was virtually built on TOT from China. we sold you not an assembly line like U.S did, but the whole production line!

so next time dont brag on you have 4th gen tech because you assembled few F-16````as you can find a no man's island, gather 100 well educated people (college level), throwing in a billion dollar + assembly menus and spare parts, within 2 years they well start rolling out F-16s in bulks with expected quality`````but if you give 10 billion dollars + blue prints and ask Turkey to made a F-16 from scratch, even for 10 years, you cant make a replica as good as F-16A/B````

between assembly skills to ground R&D there are two Alpses inbetween, this is the hard reality of complicated defense industry, has nothing to do with your propaganda and delsuion

 

[Globalwarrior]

With all due respect, forget Turks in the 5th gen
The Chinese ones are already in the air
Need to get coupled with one of them asap

 

[rcrmj]

I think the J-20 talk predates the Project Azm announcement. The PAF CAS seemed to be clear that the Project Azm fighter would be an original design. It's also important to remember that the PAF has experience working with CAC, not SAC. In terms of a next-gen fighter, it's possible that the PAF wants to work with CAC, especially since CAC has a serviceable 5th-gen fighter in its CV.

FC-31 is the only viable option so far````at the end of the day CAC or SAC they are all from the same coporation

 

[Tank131]

I think the J-20 talk predates the Project Azm announcement. The PAF CAS seemed to be clear that the Project Azm fighter would be an original design. It's also important to remember that the PAF has experience working with CAC, not SAC. In terms of a next-gen fighter, it's possible that the PAF wants to work with CAC, especially since CAC has a serviceable 5th-gen fighter in its CV.

The Pak military has said a lot of things and it for domestic consumption. They said the Buraq UAV and Barq Missile are Pakistani, based on CH-3, when we all know that the only thing that is Pakistani were the hands that opened the kits and assembled them. There is a possibility that Pakistan may be manufacturing them, but they are the CH-3 UAV and AR-1 Missile to be sure.

The reality is that IF Pakistan wants to get into the 5th gen fighter game, there are 4 ways.

1. BUY a solution off the shelf. This means acquiring a product in production ala F-16. The only option at this point could be J-20 as J-31 may never be produced for China. TFX could be am option in the future, but there is not much beyond comcepts currently. PAF cannot afford to be the only buyer of a design unless it has some control over the project. It is too risky amd costly unless the home nation is also acquiring the type. The KAI/IA KFX may also be am option in the future but will likely be under a lot of US influence.

2. JOINT VENTURE: this could entail PAF being the sole initial buyer for the type (as it was in JF-17) because it allows for some control of the project. J-31 is ideal for this but TFX is a possibility.

3. R&D from scratch. But Pakistan has very little experience in the aviation sector. Further more it has no experience in aeronautical design and zero experience in engine design or manufacturing. This would be a decades long endeavor culminating likely in 2040s

4. Contracting out the R&D while maintaining IP of the part and technology. This could include acquiring a project wholesale as the Turks did when they bought the Agusta Mangusta project amd turned it into the TAI ATAK. They took a project that was complete and bough the technology and IP for it, allowing them to jump to the end of the project. This is likely (imho) what project AZM will turn out to be. Pakistan will probably buy out the IP for a design (like J-31). China has shown little to no interest in it, but development it continuing on a rapid pace. Pakistan (the most logical launch customer has discussed it in passing). My suspicion it that J-31 will become F-31 for Project AZM. They may further contract out other subsystems when it comes under their control (like more J-20 subsystems or engine from Turkey (ala EJ200 Variant that turkey plans to acquire)). Pakistan in my opinion will likely buy the J-31 program much like Turkey bought the Mangusta project. It may evem have financial backing to do so by the Arabs (which would be huge for Pakistan) in order to supply them unencumbered by western demands.

 

[帅的一匹]

FC-31 is the only viable option so far````at the end of the day CAC or SAC they are all from the same coporation

Same corporation with different culture

 

[rcrmj]

Same corporation with different culture

I dont see any issue in that``````