SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

[MMM-E]

not unfair, but too much overated by most of you people, their so-called software codes were all wirten based on the architect, coding rules and frames that was done by the U.S, these are the real part, writing extesion and additional mission codes are nothing````even my company can do that, when given the open source

and some people from my circle had worked with Turkish projects before, we know it well where Turkey really stands.
If I categorize the level of tech difficulties in four:
assembly
extension work
upgrade
R&D

Turkey is at the first step, it can be in the extension works if being optimistic

thats the hard reality, as it was also for us 2 decades ago


to amatures, yes they all look flashy, but all of these you bragged are no more than a paper work if not for all the paid data and tech pakages from the West.
the data to make an efficient rotor blade, the data for ducted fan, the data for areodynamics, the software architect and frame for radar, sensors, and weapon system controls, the data to formulate missile fuel that is efficient and powerful, the machine tools and technological know-how packages to make sophisticated parts`````and not to mention all the core parts are imported.

so spare your Turkish propaganda and delusion, Turkey is a minor player in defense industry, just slightly ahead of India, but that due to your proximity to the West and ease to aquire best techs from Europe``````and btw, to your rocket technologies, you really have to thank us. because I mean your whole rocket industry was virtually built on TOT from China. we sold you not an assembly line like U.S did, but the whole production line!

so next time dont brag on you have 4th gen tech because you assembled few F-16````as you can find a no man's island, gather 100 well educated people (college level), throwing in a billion dollar + assembly menus and spare parts, within 2 years they well start rolling out F-16s in bulks with expected quality`````but if you give 10 billion dollars + blue prints and ask Turkey to made a F-16 from scratch, even for 10 years, you cant make a replica as good as F-16A/B````

between assembly skills to ground R&D there are two Alpses inbetween, this is the hard reality of complicated defense industry, has nothing to do with your propaganda and delsuion

You know nothing about TURKEY ....

Aselsan , Havelsan , Meteksan , AYESAS , MILSOFT and TUBITAK have developed Software , Source codes , National Data Links,,Data Software,, IFF Identification Friend or Foe System ,,, Combat Management System , etc for Turkish F-16s , T-129 Attack Helicopter ,,Frigates and Submarines

Turkish Airforce 163 of CCIP modernized F-16s uses Turkish software , source codes , Identification Friend or Foe System , electronic warfare systems ... ( Turkey is only Muslim Country that uses its own software , source codes , Identification Friend or Foe System , electronic warfare systems,,etc )

also TURKEY has developed everything you said , including JP-10 type Missile Fuel which is produced only a few countries in the world

-- Aselsan ASELPOD Targeting Pod
-- Aselsan MEHPED Jamming Pod ... ( only The US,Israel,Turkey and Russia in the World )
-- Aselsan KORAL Radar Electronic Warfare System .. ( only Russia and Turkey )
-- Aselsan Quantum-well infrared photodetectors ... ( only 5 in world wide)
-- Aselsan NANO Tecnology microchip for Radars ...( only 4 in world wide )
-- Aselsan Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suite (SPEWS )....( only 6 in world wide )
-- Aselsan TORK anti torpedo hard kill system .. ( only The US,Israel,Turkey ,Germany and Russia in the World )
-- Aselsan GaN based AESA Radars ..( 450km CAFRAD Radar for TF-2000 class Frigate ) one of the longest range

-- Meteksan MILDAR Fire control Radar for T-129 Attack Helicopter ... 12 km MILDAR is better than 8km American LONGBOW Radar

-- TAI ANKA Armed Drone ( UCAV ) ..SATCOM+SAR Radar+Laser guided Missiles ...( only The US,,Israel,,Turkey and China in the World )

-- by 2004 TURKEY was the 4th Country that developed Smart Bomb after The US , Israel and Russia

-- SOM and ATMACA Missiles are with Network enabled capability ... ( only The US,,Uk,,Turkey and Germany in the World )

I can show you around 550 Turkish Military Projects


TURKEY started to develop weapons after 2003 ... but only in 13 years 3 Turkish Defense Companies Aselsan,Roketsan and TAI entered into top 100 in the World by 2017

The US : 42
UK : 9
Japan : 8
Russia : 6
France : 5
Israel : 4
Turkey : 3
S.Korea : 3
Germany : 2
India : 2
China : 0

Source : http://people.defensenews.com/top-100/


its not propaganda and delsuion .... its reality ..... TURKEY IS MORE THAN YOU KNOW

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and what about China ? Russian-Ukranian and NATO technology

-- Russia designed , tested and gave Z10 Attack Helicopter to China
-- HQ9 Air Defense System = the HQ-9 was developed with Russian assistance and benefits from Russian technology transfers
-- Israel gave Jet Fighter Technology to China
U.S. Says Israel Gave Combat Jet Plans to China
http://articles.latimes.com/1994-12-28/news/mn-13774_1_combat-planes

-- Israel Passes U.S. Military Technology to China ,,, Secret U.S. missile and electro-optics technology was transferred to China recently by Israel
https://www.defensetech.org/2013/12/24/report-israel-passes-u-s-military-technology-to-china/


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[MMM-E]

you cant make a replica as good as F-16A/B````

TURKEY can make 4th gen Fighter as good as even F-16 Block70 ...

TURKISH F-16 BLOCK-70 MODERNIZATION



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Turkish Aerospace Industries has enough base, experience and technological-readness

I am saying again Turkish Aerospace Industries ( TAI ) produced under license F16 Fighter Jets and General Electric F110-GE-100 Engines for more than 25 years

and now Turkish Aerospace Industries ( TAI ) design , develops and manifantures its own platforms

TAI ANKA UCAV


TAI HURKUS TRAINER and LIGHT ATTACK AIRCRAFT


TAI T-625 5 ton class UTILITY HELICOPTER


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also Turkish Aerospace Industries ( TAI ) started to develop another new weapons until 2023

TAI ATAK-2 ATTACK HELICOPTER


TAI 10 ton class UTILITY HELICOPTER


TAI HURJET New Generation Basic Trainer and Close-Air Support / Light Strike Jet


TAI TFX 5th gen stealth Fighter Jet


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btw 10 Turkish Companies produce critical parts of the F35 Fighter Jet and F135 Engine , including Center Fuselage and Bliks-Spool technology

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[MMM-E]

The Pak military has said a lot of things and it for domestic consumption. They said the Buraq UAV and Barq Missile are Pakistani, based on CH-3, when we all know that the only thing that is Pakistani were the hands that opened the kits and assembled them. There is a possibility that Pakistan may be manufacturing them, but they are the CH-3 UAV and AR-1 Missile to be sure.

The reality is that IF Pakistan wants to get into the 5th gen fighter game, there are 4 ways.

1. BUY a solution off the shelf. This means acquiring a product in production ala F-16. The only option at this point could be J-20 as J-31 may never be produced for China. TFX could be am option in the future, but there is not much beyond comcepts currently. PAF cannot afford to be the only buyer of a design unless it has some control over the project. It is too risky amd costly unless the home nation is also acquiring the type. The KAI/IA KFX may also be am option in the future but will likely be under a lot of US influence.

2. JOINT VENTURE: this could entail PAF being the sole initial buyer for the type (as it was in JF-17) because it allows for some control of the project. J-31 is ideal for this but TFX is a possibility.

3. R&D from scratch. But Pakistan has very little experience in the aviation sector. Further more it has no experience in aeronautical design and zero experience in engine design or manufacturing. This would be a decades long endeavor culminating likely in 2040s

4. Contracting out the R&D while maintaining IP of the part and technology. This could include acquiring a project wholesale as the Turks did when they bought the Agusta Mangusta project amd turned it into the TAI ATAK. They took a project that was complete and bough the technology and IP for it, allowing them to jump to the end of the project. This is likely (imho) what project AZM will turn out to be. Pakistan will probably buy out the IP for a design (like J-31). China has shown little to no interest in it, but development it continuing on a rapid pace. Pakistan (the most logical launch customer has discussed it in passing). My suspicion it that J-31 will become F-31 for Project AZM. They may further contract out other subsystems when it comes under their control (like more J-20 subsystems or engine from Turkey (ala EJ200 Variant that turkey plans to acquire)). Pakistan in my opinion will likely buy the J-31 program much like Turkey bought the Mangusta project. It may evem have financial backing to do so by the Arabs (which would be huge for Pakistan) in order to supply them unencumbered by western demands.

PAKISTAN buys Turkish-Italian TAI T129 Attack Helicopters

and PAKISTAN should join to Turkish TAI TFX 5th gen Fighter Jet Project ..first flight by 2023
TURKEY and UK will develop better Fighter Jet than Chinese J31

NATO Aircraft and Engine technology are always better than Chinese

also TAI TFX 5th gen Fighter Jet will have Turkish software , source codes , Identification Friend or Foe System , electronic warfare systems ,, etc also Aselsan develops GaN based AESA Radar


---AYESAS and KALE in Aviation
---TAI in Fuselage design and integration
---ASELSAN in Avionics (AESA Radar)... Electronics,,,Mission Computer ,,Targeting Pod...Self protection Electronic Warfare Suite ,,, Identification friend or foe system..etc
---ROKETSAN , TUBITAK and MKEK in Weapon systems
---AYESAS and MILSOFT in Data Software
---METEKSAN in National Data Links

also Turkish KALE AERO and British ROLLS ROYCE will develop the national engine for TF-X

https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/p...create-defence-aero-engine-joint-venture.aspx

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[MMM-E]

Main problem with the TFX will be engines a version of (EF-200) which will bbe sanction prone

no any sanction prone ..... , Turkey intends to export the TFX. Intellectual property ownership of the design and the joint venture manufacturing of the turbofan engine (and export licenses) will be essential

Kale Group (Turkey ) will own 51% and Rolls-Royce 49% of the joint venture, which aims to develop aircraft engines for Turkey

I remind You In August 2016, the Pakistani Minister of Defence Production Rana Tanveer Hussain told Pakistan’s state-owned television network PTV that Turkey invited Pakistan to take part in the TFX program

 

[Dungeness]

Absolutely. Original design, but with strong external support.

It depends if the "original design" comes in on a piece of restaurant napkin or on a truck load of blue prints.

not unfair, but too much overated by most of you people, their so-called software codes were all wirten based on the architect, coding rules and frames that was done by the U.S, these are the real part, writing extesion and additional mission codes are nothing````even my company can do that, when given the open source

and some people from my circle had worked with Turkish projects before, we know it well where Turkey really stands.
If I categorize the level of tech difficulties in four:
assembly
extension work
upgrade
R&D

Turkey is at the first step, it can be in the extension works if being optimistic

thats the hard reality, as it was also for us 2 decades ago


to amatures, yes they all look flashy, but all of these you bragged are no more than a paper work if not for all the paid data and tech pakages from the West.
the data to make an efficient rotor blade, the data for ducted fan, the data for areodynamics, the software architect and frame for radar, sensors, and weapon system controls, the data to formulate missile fuel that is efficient and powerful, the machine tools and technological know-how packages to make sophisticated parts`````and not to mention all the core parts are imported.

so spare your Turkish propaganda and delusion, Turkey is a minor player in defense industry, just slightly ahead of India, but that due to your proximity to the West and ease to aquire best techs from Europe``````and btw, to your rocket technologies, you really have to thank us. because I mean your whole rocket industry was virtually built on TOT from China. we sold you not an assembly line like U.S did, but the whole production line!

so next time dont brag on you have 4th gen tech because you assembled few F-16````as you can find a no man's island, gather 100 well educated people (college level), throwing in a billion dollar + assembly menus and spare parts, within 2 years they well start rolling out F-16s in bulks with expected quality`````but if you give 10 billion dollars + blue prints and ask Turkey to made a F-16 from scratch, even for 10 years, you cant make a replica as good as F-16A/B````

between assembly skills to ground R&D there are two Alpses inbetween, this is the hard reality of complicated defense industry, has nothing to do with your propaganda and delsuion

Nowadays, every John and Joe thinks he is just as capable of creating a 5th gen fighter jet from ground up, since even Chinese could do it.

 

[MMM-E]

more of Turkish propaganda and usual China bashing materials``

there is only two countries that has a complete R&D capability, U.S and China, (Soviet was the one before China)
and few countries that excel in respective fields: U.K, Russia and France
and few countries that excel in material and machine tools techs: Japan, Germany and Holland
and few countries that have good system integration capabilities in respective field: Israel, Sweden

Turkey is no body, it is capable of assembly, forget about ground breaking and systematic R&D

Military high tech field is quite clear and ordered, you'd know the true landscape once your are in the circle```no matter how long the list you can make of Turkey "developed" weapon systems, but they are more of bought parts assembly and few extension works, Turkey is nobody at high tech defense field, fact


forget about TFX, they have no technological know-how and readness to develop a 4th gen, let alone a 5th gen, not for 30 years they can make a flying one, no disrespect, but its a hard fact!



nothing comes funnier than these delusion`````the french came to offer their full pakage of aviation techs in exchange for our quantum techs, "that guy" replied (not actual words, but close in friendly way):" why would we trade the world's leading tech for something we already have and better?"

Turkey's rocket techs are full breed Chinese, it is the only field that Turkey can brag about ground R&D, but that is based on importing the entire production line, facilities and data pakages from China``````I guess we are too kind, unlike the West and America that only gives you assembly line````yet, you are still clueless to know that there are two Alps inbetween assembly and ground R&D

I am not compare Turkey with China , TURKEY needs more 10 years . then everybody will see Turkey is nobody or not

and almost all military technology was transferred to China by Russia, Ukraine and Israel ... still Chinese weapons has no high tech NATO quality

1..) SOM Cruise Missile , ATMACA Anti Ship Missile , CIRIT 70mm laser guided rocket, UMTAS anti Tank Missile MIZRAK Missile , TEMREN Missile , GOKTUG Air to Air Missile designed , developed and manifactured by ROKETSAN ..... nothing with Chinese

also AKBABA Anti-radiation Missile , Supersonic Anti ship Missile and GEZGIN Land and Naval based Cruise Missile are under development

also HGK , KGK and TEBER Smart Bombs ( 29-110 km ) and LGK Laser guided Missile have developed by TUBITAK-SAGE and ASELSAN

KALE AERO and ROKETSAN develops Engines including RAMJET for Missiles
TUBITAK has developed JP-10 type Missile Fuel which only a few countries developed in the World


2 .. ) ANKA Armed Drone ( UCAV ) was designed ,developed and manifactured by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) ... nothing with The US or NATO

ASELSAN , ROKETSAN , METEKSAN have developed Software , Source codes , Flight control System , Electro-Optics ,SATCOM , SAR Radar , Laser guided Missiles , etc

TEI ( Turkish Engine Industries ) has developed TEI PD-170 Engine ( 170 hp ) for ANKA UAV-UCAV


The US blocked to sell Armed Drone ( UCAV ) to TURKEY and The US said that TURKEY can not develop Armed Drone ( UCAV ) in 30 years

but Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) has developed ANKA Armed Drone ( UCAV ) in 9 years and by 2017 only The US,Israel,Turkey and China uses their own MALE Armed Drone ( UCAV ) in the World

and now Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) started to develop Stealth UCAV and New Generation Basic Trainer and Close-Air Support / Light Strike Jet ( mach 1,2 speed , 35.000 feet service ceiling ,3 tons payload ..... first flight by 2022 )

so Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) can develop 4th gen Fighter .... but 5th gen Fighter is another level ... so TAI develops 5th gen Fighter with British BAE Systems ( first fligh by 2023 and will be in service by 2029 ) and TAI TFX will be superior to Chinese J31



3 ...) ASELPOD Targeting Pod , MEHPOD Jamming Pod ,KORAL Radar Electronic Warfare System , Airborne Stand off Jammer ,, Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suite (SPEWS ) , CATS (Common Aperture Targeting System) , IFF System , AVCI Helmet Integrated Cueing System (HICS) , Quantum-well Infrared Photodetectors , NANO Tecnology Microchip , GaN based AESA Radars , TORK Anti Torpedo hard kill System , DAKA Acoustic Torpedo Countermeasure Decoys , TBT-01 YAKAMOZ Sonar , AKKOR Active Protection System , Imaging Infrared Seeker for Missiles , Missile seeker Radar , HISAR Air Defense Systems ,, High energy LASER , Electromagnetic Rail Gun were developed by ASELSAN

ASELSAN Research Center

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btw Air to Air Missile technology , Electro-optics technology and Combat Aircraft technology ( American technology ) were transferred to China by Israel

Air Defense Systems technology , Anti Ship and Cruise Missile technology and Engine technology ( Soviet technology ) were transferred to China by Russia and Ukraine

even Russia designed developed tested and gave Z10 Attack Helicopter to China

NATO , Russia , Japan are far superior to China ..... China is good in replica , nothing else

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[Deino]

@Berkant

STOP these nationalistic propaganda and off-topic-posts. This is the thread on any possible FC-31-use in the PAF and not a Turkish-propaganda thread.

Take this as a warning.

Deino

 

[araz]

It depends if the "original design" comes in on a piece of restaurant napkin or on a truck load of blue prints.




Nowadays, every John and Joe thinks he is just as capable of creating a 5th gen fighter jet from ground up, since even Chinese could do it.

That is an unfair comment. People always aspire to do well and better themselves.
You have to understand that Turkey is a stake holder in the F35 programme. That will give them exposure and exposure in its own rights has value. Or have our Chinese brothers forgotten the joint collaboration between PAF and PLAAF which has borne fruit in various projects which China calls its own and looks at proudly. So just like you dont want the Chinese effort to be belittled, do not belittle the efforts that the Turks are making. The Chinese have launched their efforts into 5th generation fighters which are bearing fruits. Why not be happy at the efforts others are making. We will fall, get up and walk together. We will crawl, walk run and then fly together. There is no need to take offence at posts that you find wrong, just press the report button.
Kind regards
A

 

[HannibalBarca]

What I love about this thread... is those who belittle were belittled by another a decade and half before when they seek to achieve what the other got... and a decade later acheived it... at least what they want you to believe...since the thing that they are proud of ( and should be) is yet not combat proven...

"The King always forget that he was also a baby... and forgot that a Prince is in the making..."

Best regards...

 

[Dungeness]

That is an unfair comment. People always aspire to do well and better themselves.
You have to understand that Turkey is a stake holder in the F35 programme. That will give them exposure and exposure in its own rights has value. Or have our Chinese brothers forgotten the joint collaboration between PAF and PLAAF which has borne fruit in various projects which China calls its own and looks at proudly. So just like you dont want the Chinese effort to be belittled, do not belittle the efforts that the Turks are making. The Chinese have launched their efforts into 5th generation fighters which are bearing fruits. Why not be happy at the efforts others are making. We will fall, get up and walk together. We will crawl, walk run and then fly together. There is no need to take offence at posts that you find wrong, just press the report button.
Kind regards
A

Being on PDF for quite a few years, I have seen enough grandiose "plans" and "projects" that ended nowhere. Quite a few counties have announced their "plans" to build their own version of 5-gen fighter since J-20 surfaced in 2011, but we yet to see anything except for Japan's Shinshin demonstrator. So I tend to pay my respect more to the result than to the talk.

A military enthusiast arrogantly dismissed Chinese military industries, which are tens of times larger than their biggest, so I just politely posted some information to supplement his knowledge deficit. There is no any hard feelings, so reporting is not warranted.

 

[武成王]

It's good to see other countries develop their 5th generation fighters, China is an inspiration to them, this is one of the Chinese contribution to the world, an inspiring model, a part of soft power. Please applaud more, belittle less, to such efforts. Or just ignore troll, Or keep this thread clean.

Chinese fellows should have a mentality of tolerant super power, don't learn from pseudo power 2012, arguing over chicken feather and garlic skin.

 

[araz]

Being on PDF for quite a few years, I have seen enough grandiose "plans" and "projects" that ended nowhere. Quite a few counties have announced their "plans" to build their own version of 5-gen fighter since J-20 surfaced in 2011, but we yet to see anything except for Japan's Shinshin demonstrator. So I tend to pay my respect more to the result than to the talk.

A military enthusiast arrogantly dismissed Chinese military industries, which are tens of times larger than their biggest, so I just politely posted some information to supplement his knowledge deficit. There is no any hard feelings, so reporting is not warranted.

There wqs no question to report. No one is denegradi g the Chinese efforts and they are wsll on their way to becoming a leading Superpower. So criticism is unwarranted. I merely pointed out that one ahould respect the ecforts of other nations. They might not be there at the moment but God willing will get there. The emphasis should be on learning from one another about the efforts of the respective countries. I would even criticize those who put down the HAL Tejas effort. If we give respect we will get respect back. As to Jingoism the posters will soon sift between diamond and coal so let the idiots rant and get banned.
A

 

[MastanKhan]

Japan spent 10 years and over $40 billion to come up with this 5th freak called Shinshin, what make turkey believe they can do a better job than japan? both financially and technologically. Now even pak members joint this brag contest by preaching their own 5th program, what a joke!!!

There is only a limit number of countries could produce 4th planes, much less could develop 5th. Europe couldn't, russian is struggling, what make turkey so confident? by assembling f16? indians also assemble s30 for years while counld't pull off their lca. There turks really elevate their braging skill to another level to even make indians look humble.

View attachment 440434

View attachment 440435

Hi,

Pakistanis make big claims out of habbit---. The 5th gen aircraft is of a different dimension---.

Turkey may want to---but it has no experience in it---.

It has no industrial complex like that of Japan either.

 

[royalharris]

Everyone should keep a realistic point of view, don't belittle others nor flatter others
No one like te be belittled, but most of people like to be flattered, ultra compliment will make people drop to ground badly

Every nation can say you want to do everyting, just do it , wish you succeed
But before achieving it, pls do more, say less, especially don't compared PPT with others from time to time
We wish others grown up quickly, but it is boresome to compare a primay student with a graduation one

 

[IblinI]

thread is belong to my Pakistani brothers , not Chinese

and I am talking about only military ( 5th gen stealth Fighter projects )

why are Chinese guys so angry ? Pakistan has good relationship with both Turkey and China

if China gives the 5th gen stealth Fighter to Pakistan , then I will be so happy

maybe FC-31 and TFX will be future combat fleet for PAF ( Nightmare for Indian Air Force )

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First of all, I do not think anyone here is angry, secondly please read the thread title again.
SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF