SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

[gambit]

@gambit
Isn't intensity if IR a controlled measure too? Can't they use the system's known capability to measure a specific intensity level from a known distance and compare that with the received intensity to calculate the distance with reasonable accuracy?

Yes, you can. In fact, the newer IR sensors have this data processing capability. But it is still inferior in precision and accuracy compare to active radar signals.

 

[Viper0011.]

without examining a Su-33 and J-15 how do you know it isn't a carbon copy ? Give it to the Chinese they are very good at copying stuff.

When you cannot build an engine for 4th generation fighter how are you going to build an engine for 5th generation fighter ?

Either you have a lot of empty space between both of your ears or the "stuff" that might exist in your head, doesn't have brain waves, showing thinking ability.

I don't think I denied that something was or WAS NOT a carbon copy. The argument was, the Chinese can't make a 4th gen jet. I've given you plenty of examples that they have been building MANY 4th gen fighters. Whether they copy or not, that's just quality. If a jet the Chinese built, does everything a F-16 or an F-15 does, but does it 70 or 80% of the American or Western products, that's a quality issue. Doesn't mean that their planes aren't 4th gen.

By reading your messages, it doesn't look like you, yourself know the topic you started and derailed the thread!!

 

[Indian Jatt]

Pakistan should opt for it 100% TOT , and share of knowledge with Chinese Private Company
This would be a great strategic asset to have to make visits to New Delhi for special ocassions

frequent visits to Delhi haan????? yes off course......to pickup the leftover of the plane right????

 

[Khurram2349]

Good option for PAF for future ! But PAF should also evaluate other Chinese stealth fighter J-20 before making final decision ! Also PAF should request Chinese for technology transfer as it will be natural step after experience of Pakistanis with JF-17 Thunder !

 

[Sulman Badshah]

Good option for PAF for future ! But PAF should also evaluate other Chinese stealth fighter J-20 before making final decision ! Also PAF should request Chinese for technology transfer as it will be natural step after experience of Pakistanis with JF-17 Thunder !

J20 will be designated PLAAF fighter jet and will not be available for export ...

the only best thing that china going to export will be J31

 

[araz]

Good option for PAF for future ! But PAF should also evaluate other Chinese stealth fighter J-20 before making final decision ! Also PAF should request Chinese for technology transfer as it will be natural step after experience of Pakistanis with JF-17 Thunder !

Bhai.
Technology transfer is the most misunderstood concept amongst you guys. Just think clearly, you have just taken baby steps at manufacturing a fourth generation fighter. Your contribution to it is still 58%manufacturing. You do not have the grasp of the subject and the skills of manufacturing the full fighter. Now on top of it you want to manufacture a fifth generation fighter. You don't have the skill set to manufacture the composites and RAM coatings, the metallurgy to make the parts, the research to get into these fields. An even bigger stupidity is that you want another country no matter how friendly to hand over their latest technology on a silver platter and say to you,"here you go little brother we will give you what we have sweated over for 20yrs to acquire and let you manufacture it by setting up plants in your country and while you are at it we will also fork out the money to do so and forget about any of our aspirations to make money out of our investment". Do you see the stupidity of this line of thinking?
It is like getting your baby to learn particle physics at PHD level without having gone through kindergarten. It will work as well as you trying to manufacture a fifth generation fighter.
Lastly, assuming you have the skills, the utility of TOT depends on the numbers produced as the price per unit drops down as the numbers increase. PAF will probably not require more than a couple of squadrons to begin with( ie. within the next ten years!!!) And you want to establish plants that will set you back 4-5 billion$ to manufacture just 40 fighters!!! What do you think the price per fighter is going to be? We need to think clearly before we write and try and analyze what we are writing. This, along with some research, is what will develop your skills as an internet warrior.
Araz

 

[MastanKhan]

By reading your messages, it doesn't look like you, yourself know the topic you started and derailed the thread!!

Hi,

He knows everything very well----he is just trying to scratch to get every bit of information out there. His inquisitions are of the professional quality---there are a few others as well. A snub here a provocation there---very well practiced jibes---.

 

[The SC]

Bhai.
Technology transfer is the most misunderstood concept amongst you guys. Just think clearly, you have just taken baby steps at manufacturing a fourth generation fighter. Your contribution to it is still 58%manufacturing. You do not have the grasp of the subject and the skills of manufacturing the full fighter. Now on top of it you want to manufacture a fifth generation fighter. You don't have the skill set to manufacture the composites and RAM coatings, the metallurgy to make the parts, the research to get into these fields. An even bigger stupidity is that you want another country no matter how friendly to hand over their latest technology on a silver platter and say to you,"here you go little brother we will give you what we have sweated over for 20yrs to acquire and let you manufacture it by setting up plants in your country and while you are at it we will also fork out the money to do so and forget about any of our aspirations to make money out of our investment". Do you see the stupidity of this line of thinking?
It is like getting your baby to learn particle physics at PHD level without having gone through kindergarten. It will work as well as you trying to manufacture a fifth generation fighter.
Lastly, assuming you have the skills, the utility of TOT depends on the numbers produced as the price per unit drops down as the numbers increase. PAF will probably not require more than a couple of squadrons to begin with( ie. within the next ten years!!!) And you want to establish plants that will set you back 4-5 billion$ to manufacture just 40 fighters!!! What do you think the price per fighter is going to be? We need to think clearly before we write and try and analyze what we are writing. This, along with some research, is what will develop your skills as an internet warrior.
Araz

Why not? i can even hand my little brother a Mercedes when i can afford it. I know he has his driver's license and drives well. I also make computers and give him all the tech he needs to make some too and be independent since I know that he's got his PHD in science. It takes nothing from my business. I also know that if I was in need he would support me wholeheartedly.
So what if Pakistan decides to make a 150 or more J-31s, just like the JF-17 (low end/high end), the investment will certainly be worth it, and more yet, it will bring in other foreign interests, just like the JF-17. So in the long run the investment will even be financially rewarding on top of securing both lands.

 

[araz]

Why not? i can even hand my little brother a Mercedes when i can afford it. I know he has his driver's license and drives well. I also make computers and give him all the tech he needs to make some too and be independent since I know that he's got his PHD in science. It takes nothing from my business. I also know that if I was in need he would support me wholeheartedly.
So what if Pakistan decides to make a 150 or more J-31s, just like the JF-17 (low end/high end), the investment will certainly be worth it, and more yet, it will bring in other foreign interests, just like the JF-17. So in the long run the investment will even be financially rewarding on top of securing both lands.

Try again when your brother is 2 yrs old see what benfit that merc will do him. My feiend you are either very naive or taking the mickey out of me. In either case there is no free lunch in this world and if you think anyone will hand you the tech for 5th generation fighters then you are obviously from a different world. Good luck and when you seriously want to learn we can talk again. I can tell you on good authority that your dream is not about to come true at least for the next decade and possibly more.
Araz

 

[The SC]

Try again when your brother is 2 yrs old see what benfit that merc will do him. My feiend you are either very naive or taking the mickey out of me. In either case there is no free lunch in this world and if you think anyone will hand you the tech for 5th generation fighters then you are obviously from a different world. Good luck and when you seriously want to learn we can talk again. I can tell you on good authority that your dream is not about to come true at least for the next decade and possibly more.
Araz

I know my brother can make nuclear bombs, Ballistic missiles, submarines, Tanks...etc, at the edge of technology and science and be responsible about it, so he is no 2 years old in anything. You must be the naive one here thinking that Pakistan is a backward country.
You can be sure of one thing, Pakistan never goes for something beyond its reach in procurements, and there are just very few of them due to the foreign blows to its economics which are getting better by the day...The brains are already there beyond anything you can imagine.

 

[Viper0011.]

i can even hand my little brother a Mercedes when i can afford it. .

Well.....for one, you must love your brother too much. And two, the "brother" deal and providing fifth generation jets and potentially technology....isn't so brotherly whether its the US dealing with her allies or the Chinese dealing with their allies. There is a lot more that it takes to provide the state of the art tech.

I question the Chinese tech as majority of it is copied and / or stolen. But, at the same time, copying requires money and resources too. So what they are using as their state of the art jet, isn't just given out. There are serious requirements for any country to provide their advanced tech to an ally. Pakistan's economy and other benefit it can offer to China, are simply not there. My response may be very different if this was 2020.....

 

[The SC]

Well.....for one, you must love your brother too much. And two, the "brother" deal and providing fifth generation jets and potentially technology....isn't so brotherly whether its the US dealing with her allies or the Chinese dealing with their allies. There is a lot more that it takes to provide the state of the art tech.

I question the Chinese tech as majority of it is copied and / or stolen. But, at the same time, copying requires money and resources too. So what they are using as their state of the art jet, isn't just given out. There are serious requirements for any country to provide their advanced tech to an ally. Pakistan's economy and other benefit it can offer to China, are simply not there. My response may be very different if this was 2020.....

The Chinese investments in Pakistan contradicts your thoughts, you should think about it twice.
By the way , the US has provided its allies with its best tech with ToT for decades till they could get on their feet, including nuclear tech... it has also provided and still doing so its best technologies with ToT to Usrael...

 

[SQ8]

Well.....for one, you must love your brother too much. And two, the "brother" deal and providing fifth generation jets and potentially technology....isn't so brotherly whether its the US dealing with her allies or the Chinese dealing with their allies. There is a lot more that it takes to provide the state of the art tech.

I question the Chinese tech as majority of it is copied and / or stolen. But, at the same time, copying requires money and resources too. So what they are using as their state of the art jet, isn't just given out. There are serious requirements for any country to provide their advanced tech to an ally. Pakistan's economy and other benefit it can offer to China, are simply not there. My response may be very different if this was 2020.....

Its fairly transactional, except in this case the relation is more like a person indebted giving it all up. This "giving" it all up is why there is strict security around the Block-52s that Pakistan has and its upgraded MLUs...down to retina scans.
From what I gathered, any attempt to let even an authorized person near the Block-52 triggers off an Alarm that probably has the US Defence Attaché ringing up the PAF and giving them a stern warning followed up by an investigation into the incident. All clearances have US personnel approval in it.

That is NOT to indicate that these aircraft are handicapped in their usage(which they can be against all enemies east or west of Pakistan save the US and its allies) , but a clear sign that whatever these aircraft carry is sophisticated and advanced enough to warrant it from falling into Chinese hands to be xerox'd.

 

[Viper0011.]

The Chinese investments in Pakistan contradicts your thoughts, you should think about it twice.

The Chinese investment doesn't contradict my thoughts, you should go read up on my posts. I may be one of the few people on here who know the investments inflows to Pakistan a lot more than you can imagine.

Chinese investments and strategic offensive weapons are two VERY different things and entirely opposite in perspective. For example, the US and Japan do hundreds of billions of trade, but the US has refused to sell the -22 to it. Japan is the US's one of the biggest trading partner for decades. Same thing with Israel, Israel is one of our closes allies. But the US government refused to provide -22 to them. Instead they offered the -35 (which still is years advanced than anything their opponents have, but still, saying no to Israel is a huge deal).

So, both Japan and Israel are very strong organizations, both financially, trade wise and militarily. And Pakistan has just embarked herself on a long economic journey......so a LOT of differences. It won't be easy for Pakistan to get the Chinese to sell her tech related to the J-31, period. You can happily live in your dream world.

 

[SQ8]

I know my brother can make nuclear bombs, Ballistic missiles, submarines, Tanks...etc, at the edge of technology and science and be responsible about it, so he is no 2 years old in anything. You must be the naive one here thinking that Pakistan is a backward country.
You can be sure of one thing, Pakistan never goes for something beyond its reach in procurements, and there are just very few of them due to the foreign blows to its economics which are getting better by the day...The brains are already there beyond anything you can imagine.

Its backward is evident in its inability to leverage all that intelligence effectively. Trying to use the economics excuse has gone old on Pakistan. The corruption and mediocrity within its R&D department is plentiful enough to see projects shuttling about in nothing more than files.

As for your ideals of procurement, you could not be more wrong.. Pakistan makes ONLY what it cannot procure easily from any source. Which means Pakistan only makes something when it know that it is near impossible for it to ensure a steady supply of that item. Otherwise it is very happy procuring things that are available at much cheaper rates than it would take to make them. We are not India,and have no ambitions to try and climb up the steep steps of total indignization and shoot ourselves in the foot multiple times along the way.