Saab Gripen ‘Rips Apart’ Chinese J-11 Fighters In War Games

[Beast]

China is gradually replacing the J11A with Parts made in China. Every batch is different. It's really a copycat process.

Licensed. China pay Russian money for setup production and if its really copycat and illegal. Why Russian sukhoi personnel come to China to involved in the project?

Same as Z-9 helo where Chinese paid Eurocopter money to obtain the know how of a semi production line.

You will be surprised even Hummer collaborate with Chinese on DongFong armour personnel vehicle.

When the vehicle was first built, the EQ2050 included the Hummer H1 chassis.[2] It was powered by a Dongfeng-built Cummins EQB150-20 110 kW/2,700R turbo-charged diesel engine, but it came with the option of using a U.S.-made V8 diesel engine instead.[2][6] The licensing rights for the Cummins engine were purchased so that Beijing could avoid any potential sanctions.[5]

Since 2008, almost all parts for the EQ2050 are made in China.[2] Both the EQ2050 and EQ2058 vehicles have a 5-speed gear box and a 2-speed transfer box.[18]

Dongfeng EQ2050 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The EQ2050 is a four-wheel drive vehicle with an independent suspension system and central inflating system.[2] The EQ2050 has redesigned lights and radiators.[1] Dongfeng worked with AM General Motors to acquire American parts for the first EQ2050s made in production[8] before the company was able to produce the necessary parts in China.[1] The vehicle can be configured to be armed with machine guns, automatic grenade launcher, or anti-tank missiles mounted on top.[3] Body styles include soft, hard, truck, and van

 

[52051]

Russian aircraft are the best at dogfighting in general. However, dogfighting is obsolete in the 21st century and everything is about BVR and shooting down enemies before they get close enough to do serious damage.

Actually the PLA send Su-27 original version intentionally, its not like PLA has many Su-27 without updated radars and without BVR capabilities anyway.

 

[redtom]

Licensed. China pay Russian money for setup production and if its really copycat and illegal. Why Russian sukhoi personnel come to China to involved in the project?

Same as Z-9 helo where Chinese paid Eurocopter money to obtain the know how of a semi production line.

You will be surprised even Hummer collaborate with Chinese on DongFong armour personnel vehicle.

When the vehicle was first built, the EQ2050 included the Hummer H1 chassis.[2] It was powered by a Dongfeng-built Cummins EQB150-20 110 kW/2,700R turbo-charged diesel engine, but it came with the option of using a U.S.-made V8 diesel engine instead.[2][6] The licensing rights for the Cummins engine were purchased so that Beijing could avoid any potential sanctions.[5]

Since 2008, almost all parts for the EQ2050 are made in China.[2] Both the EQ2050 and EQ2058 vehicles have a 5-speed gear box and a 2-speed transfer box.[18]

Dongfeng EQ2050 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The EQ2050 is a four-wheel drive vehicle with an independent suspension system and central inflating system.[2] The EQ2050 has redesigned lights and radiators.[1] Dongfeng worked with AM General Motors to acquire American parts for the first EQ2050s made in production[8] before the company was able to produce the necessary parts in China.[1] The vehicle can be configured to be armed with machine guns, automatic grenade launcher, or anti-tank missiles mounted on top.[3] Body styles include soft, hard, truck, and van

Of course, it has been approved by the Russians, otherwise China would have been able to export J16 long ago. Pakistan does not need to purchase J10C. Pakistan with J16 will have strong offensive capabilities.The power of electronic equipment of heavy fighters can effectively suppress medium and light aircraft. J10C is more similar to a high-speed aerial assassin.However, the ability to control airspace and suppress ground air defense is not strong.

 

[applesauce]

Saab Grippen are still same?

and in these 14 years, who has advanced faster? sweden or china? which country has operational 5th gens in service?

 

[CIA Mole]

wait i don’t get it, the title of thread says gripen wins but link says 16-0 for j11?

 

[Joe1351]

wait i don’t get it, the title of thread says gripen wins but link says 16-0 for j11?

J-11 won day 1 on dogfight going 16-0 but as the articale says"
However, on the following days, as the game shifted to beyond-visual-range engagements, the Gripen armed with AIM-120 medium-range missiles proved to be a far better fighter than the J-11 with its own medium-range missiles, possibly PL-12s.
The Gripens shot down a total of 41 Chinese J-11s at a loss of six fighters. The final tally after the completion of seven days stood in favor of the Swedish fighters as it shot down 42 J-11s at a loss of 34 only."

 

[CIA Mole]

J-11 won day 1 on dogfight going 16-0 but as the articale says"
However, on the following days, as the game shifted to beyond-visual-range engagements, the Gripen armed with AIM-120 medium-range missiles proved to be a far better fighter than the J-11 with its own medium-range missiles, possibly PL-12s.
The Gripens shot down a total of 41 Chinese J-11s at a loss of six fighters. The final tally after the completion of seven days stood in favor of the Swedish fighters as it shot down 42 J-11s at a loss of 34 only."

do you think awacs would have helped j11?

 

[applesauce]

wait i don’t get it, the title of thread says gripen wins but link says 16-0 for j11?

there were different categories of war gaming, both side took turns on the defence and attack. J-11 lost by a large margin in various kinds of medium to long range combat while winning in WVR combat.

This of course is no surprise whatsoever. these were base model J-11, a license build of su-27sk . these had outdated russian radar and missiles. but a su-27 being an su-27, did well in WVRR combat.

the outcome is likely not a surprise to the PLAAF, but they still learned lessons, such as that their pilots were sticking too close to the book and didn't manage to "think on their feet" leading to unnecessary losses where they should have won.

 

[CIA Mole]

there were different categories of war gaming, both side took turns on the defence and attack. J-11 lost by a large margin in various kinds of medium to long range combat while winning in WVR combat.

This of course is no surprise whatsoever. these were base model J-11, a license build of su-27sk . these had outdated russian radar and missiles. but a su-27 being an su-27, did well in WVRR combat.

the outcome is likely not a surprise to the PLAAF, but they still learned lessons, such as that their pilots were sticking too close to the book and didn't manage to "think on their feet" leading to unnecessary losses where they should have won.

yeah that’s why people do these exercises lol

 

[serenity]

Russian aircraft are the best at dogfighting in general. However, dogfighting is obsolete in the 21st century and everything is about BVR and shooting down enemies before they get close enough to do serious damage.

No it is not obsolete. It is back and forward but always important. Even dogfighting ability shows some advantage for BVR fight because BVR also involve climbing and diving, turning and re-engaging nose either to launch follow on missiles or for radar guidance before missile seeker is used. Performance is always important even dogfighting ones.

Actually the PLA send Su-27 original version intentionally, its not like PLA has many Su-27 without updated radars and without BVR capabilities anyway.

PLA sent J-11A to that exercise with Thai but it is not Su-27 original. First import is Su-27 and China wanted to build for itself the Su-27SK which became J-11A model basically Su-27SK made by SAC.

It has no real BVR capabilities at all. None really. It is maybe can be called half BVR ability just above F-16A where F-16A was not designed for BVR ability at all until later models.

wait i don’t get it, the title of thread says gripen wins but link says 16-0 for j11?

Gripen C won BVR fight against 1990s fighter with no real full BVR capability but Gripen lost hard in dogfighting.

We should remember that J-11A was first built in China in 1998 but it is based on Soviet later Su-27SK from 1990s and itself modified Su-27 from 1980s.

When we sent real BVR capable fighter like J-10A the BVR was quite even and J-10C absolutely wiped them clean in BVR.

J-11A is by 2015 already around 15 years old frame. I believe J-11A in last few years just retired.

This shows PLAAF wanted to verify their dogfighting training by pushing these near retirement airframe to limit and once they are done with heavy turning stresses on airframe, they are retired. J-11A retirement from 2015 to 2018 or so I believe. So it matches when they sent these last old soldiers to exercise against Gripen one more time just to review training. No care about airframe anymore.

J-10 constantly beat J-11B and J-16 in PLAAF's own internal competitions. Sometimes J-16 or J-11B pilots are better and win but the agreement is J-10 flies better but cannot carry so much otherwise performance degrade. Both are excellent dogfighters, Su-27 models are famous for dogfighting ability for something that big and J-10 uses delta wing canard with some advantage and some strong disadvantages. Both complement each other quite well for dogfighting.

 

[serenity]

J-11A has 1980s level radar. Many are already retired by PLAAF. If Indians are proud the Gripen C can beat 1980s radar 1990s plane using 1980s missiles in BVR then they are too hopeless.

Today we have over 1200 BVR capable fighters with about 450 J-10 series, 166 Su-30MKK and MK2, 24 Su-35, 342 J-11 BVR capable ones, 200+ J-16, and 80 J-20s. All of them would be equal or better than Gripen C in BVR.

J-11A could only use direction from command aircraft being datalinked target information and direction. The only way to use this retired fighter for BVR is to switch old radar off, use datalink and infrared passive tracker. Then when close enough to fire 50km range BVR missile, switch radar on. By this time any modern fighter would beat it already. Of course J-11A would lose BVR fight against more modern fighter just like Su-30MKI will lose against J-10C. J-10C will see and engage Su-30MKI at around 150km, this distance MKI cannot even detect J-10C with any good resolution. MKI's old R-77 also only maximum real lucky shot at 70km and at this range it is near useless if the other plane turns around and dives then climbs. This is nothing impressive which is why all airforce want to upgrade their radars and missiles.

J-11A maybe effective against 3rd generation fighters and similar old 4th generation ones from 1980s and 1990s. But despite this, all the over stressed frames would be retired. Only ones left would be airframes that were not flown hard or often. The J-11A and pilots also proved how good the Su-27 is in dogfight.

 

[GiantPanda]

J-11A has 1980s level radar. Many are already retired by PLAAF. If Indians are proud the Gripen C can beat 1980s radar 1990s plane using 1980s missiles in BVR then they are too hopeless.

The J-11A at the Gripen exercise was armed with the same Russian missiles (R-77, R-27) that India uses today for the vast majority of its BVR weaponry.

It is hilarious that they claim this as something advantaging them.

 

[serenity]

The J-11A at the Gripen exercise was armed with the same Russian missiles (R-77, R-27) that India uses today for the vast majority of its BVR weaponry.

It is hilarious that they claim this as something advantaging them.

I know! It is written by Indian guy on Eurasian times which is their domain like wiki. These losers love editing online stuff. Never met such people who do this before. We don't bother writing some stupid article saying J-16 rapes Su-30MKI another asshole and Tejas broke down in 2019 against Pakistan so my J-20 will single handed kill 12 Rafale and then bomb their bases lol. Fucking stupid guys.

Anyway J-11A's radar is much worse than Su-30MKI but this is comparing their best against what we are retiring. We have better than J-11A in J-11B, Su-30 J-10, J-16, Su-35, and J-20. What do they have better than Su-30MKI? Just a few Rafale. Everything else behind these fighters is better from hangar to maintenance crew to weapons to support aircraft and space based support.

We can make as much as we want and make it faster than they can dig money from their wallets. We already have 3 times as much of those fighters. So this is why they need to make some articles so try and make themselves feel good. Even with this exercise they got the results wrong. J-11A won and beat Gripen C in where both are capable of performing. J-11A is not BVR capable so why even compare those results?

In future exercise against Thai we sent J-10A and J-10B or C and both beat Gripen C in BVR.

So the result is J-11A beat Gripen C in dogfight and J-10C beat Gripen C in BVR.

But the Indian will only want to say J-11A lost to Gripen C in BVR. Focusing on the one area it actually doesn't matter since we don't use J-11A for BVR at all.

I think this attitude is how Indians run their country as well. They will ignore and pretend their 99 problems don't exist and they will ignore the 99 areas China is strong in. They will choose to only pay attention to the 1 area they don't have problems and will shout and scream about the 1 area China is weak in. Then they will say look look here the 1 to 1 area we beat China hahaha super hind jai. Then wipe their dirty *** with their hand on British railway track.

It is our cultural difference. We are a race that promotes self improvement and will be realistic about everything and try to be factual and unemotional where possible. They are always in heat and chest thumping. They only want to talk about how good they are and their culture hides and ignores problems. It's their slave culture. They are always emotional and want to rape and dominate and dream about topping others. The English made them slaves so they think in terms of master slave mentality and dream of doing this same evil to other people. We are victims of this but want fairness for those in the bottom. They want dalit shadow to not even touch them. When Japan committed crimes, it is worshipped and promoted by Indians online. We want no human to suffer something like that. When China fails and Chinese are killed by natural disaster or whatever, they laugh and celebrate.