Russian-Indian fifth-generation fighter will not be a copy of the T-50

[FSLN]

Of course not.
According to some source's FGFA will be much lighter and smaller than PAK-FA :

Lighter Yes(extended use of composites) but for sake of time it CAN NOT be structuraly different from the T-50....

 

[Kinetic]

How can you say that? T-50 is still a prototype and FGFA, well, a concept in the making!

Then why IAF wants FGFA with they could have done the way we did converted SU-30MK to MKI.

The issue here is not about the superiority or inferiority of Russian systems. The issue here is what is best suited for Indian and IAF needs. India customized Su-30 MKI to suit its own needs and nothing more.

Thats people usually says. When India put Indian EW systems, radar computer, mission computer etc for MKI, Russian systems were also available for IAF. When IAF selected Israeli HUD, Jammer etc Russian systems were also available. When India selected French navigation Russian systems were also available. If that doesn't make MKI superior to original SU-30, than what should??

There are Russian systems which we do not need or want, and then there are systems which we need but Russia cannot deliver.

If India wants to buy the T-50 just the way Russia will sell to other country, whats the problem??? Why IAF needs customization if its not better?? Which Russian systems are better in offered T-50 that IAF will be fool enough to not accept? Or replacing it with inferior systems? Nothing.

You also have to consider the building of strategic alliances or partners by subcontracting various defence deals to different vendors/countries.

I think its a JV between Russia and India (excluding Brazil). We don't need to think about other countries.

With Su-30, there already was a ready platform for us to buy off the shelf (which we initially did) and then modified it according to our needs.

Did we modified it with inferior systems??? No. Will we modify T-50 with inferior systems? I think no.

However with FGFA, we will be starting, basically, at the drawing board with all the expertise that we and Russians (with their T-50) can bring to build a platform ideally suited for IAF needs.

Taking T-50 as a base, other than twin seat configuration Russian contribution to the FGFA would be least.

 

[Avatar]

Lighter Yes(extended use of composites) but for sake of time it CAN NOT be structuraly different from the T-50....

The basic structure will be same with slight modifications because the Indian version will be twin seater.

 

[Enigma]

All we need to think about is the airframe (keeping stealth features in mind, god knows may be there would be further refined airframe ie taking the exhausts into consideration which is not the best in business yet, indian version may be with new exhaust frame with our own modification programme.) the later part is engines with the addition of tvc. So are there any other engines available of the same capabilities to us ? So exactly what are we buying from russia?

 

[Urbanized Greyhound]

Lighter Yes(extended use of composites) but for sake of time it CAN NOT be structuraly different from the T-50....

Time is definitely an issue here but the IAF would want to customize the FGFA for their specific requirements....and as shown by the MKI ...such changes are generally in the EW suites , Avionics etc....

also the AC is bound to have a significant structural difference if a second pilot is to be incorporated....as is being reported ...the control surfaces need to be reworked completely.....this will involve a change in structure to accomodate stealth too .....you cant simply change a stealthy one seater airframe to a steathy two seater one retaining the exact dimensions.....

 

[Enigma]

Given the airframe and the engines. we are capable of producing a better aircraft than the russians themselves. Be it radar be it composites. Be it absorption paint coatings. Be it the missiles ? Help from the us or israel?

 

[Enigma]

Given the airframe and the engines. we are capable of producing a better aircraft than the russians themselves. Be it radar be it composites. Be it absorption paint coatings. Be it the missiles ? Help from the us or israel?

help on the missiles i meant.

 

[Urbanized Greyhound]

All we need to think about is the airframe (keeping stealth features in mind, god knows may be there would be further refined airframe ie taking the exhausts into consideration which is not the best in business yet, indian version may be with new exhaust frame with our own modification programme.) the later part is engines with the addition of tvc. So are there any other engines available of the same capabilities to us ? So exactly what are we buying from russia?

we will most definitely get the fifth -gen supercruising Saturn/salyut engines (17.5 ton) from Russia ....they are still conducting tests as of 2010 they would be equiping the first production batch of the PAK -FA fighters with 14.5 ton engines..........

 

[1000VA]

Its a JV. Russia will make the PAK FA for them in Russia and India will make FGFA for IAF in India.

Come on bro what 'state of Art' technology is India sharing?Actually pure money that's it.They can't afford the whole amount of R&D so they are here.

If their economy is so 'sound' than why they need India??? They could simply sell it.

It's pure marketing technique, see the Israeli's, their almost all deal with India called "Co-developing".

The two seat fighter will be heavier than than single seat, isn't it?

Actually No.By using more composites and little smaller airframe makes it lighter.

Its also unbelievable that IAF rejected Russian AWACS in favor of Phalcon. IAF wants always the best in the world.. from MRCA to C-17... Its really unbelievable that they made changes to original aircraft to make it inferior!!!

Israel first offered Phalcon to the Chinese but US did not approved this deal because of much more US technology in it,then the Israelis offered this to us.I don't want to explain why we suddenly approved it right? an AWACS with Israeli and US tech always way ahead of any one.

You can check the weapon manufacturing countries export details they always sell the technology after their Army & MoD uses or approves it.

 

[Urbanized Greyhound]

Given the airframe and the engines. we are capable of producing a better aircraft than the russians themselves. Be it radar be it composites. Be it absorption paint coatings. Be it the missiles ? Help from the us or israel?

unfortunately this is not so....not just the airframe /engines ...in most of the major AC components we are nowhere close to Russian tech....not even the armaments ....missiles etc...
but we have some experience in composites ......though Russian R&D in composites would probably equal /exceed ours( but they dont seem to have applied composites on most fighters ...only on a couple of experimental ones).... and we have a sort of capability in software systems ( again cant be determined if we match or lag the russians in this field).....

the reason we are collaborating in this JV is not because we have superior tech or anything but because we need to customize certain aspects of the AC according to our special requirements which we cannot obtain if we were to buy these planes off the shelf....neither would it be financially feasible for russia to continue this project alone ....despite their tremendous R&D....so its a relationship of mutual benefit.....

regarding the point about missiles/ armaments ...U.S missiles on a Russian plane would create logistic problems .....we look set to go for either Russian or Indigenous ones....

 

[1000VA]

Given the airframe and the engines. we are capable of producing a better aircraft than the russians themselves. Be it radar be it composites. Be it absorption paint coatings. Be it the missiles ? Help from the us or israel?

Do you know how many decades experience Russian's got in this field and how many aircraft's they made till this time?... around 50000 I say and India did not completed their 1'st aircraft and suddenly became ahead of Russians

 

[FSLN]

we are capable of producing a better aircraft than the russians themselves.

BUT..but this is Not any ordinary Aircraft, its a Stealth one, a technology so advanced only U.S.A have mastered until now and the Russia its just starting to master, its scary... will Indian egeniers go to Russia for stealth tech seminars? I fear that subtle changes made in hope of "domesticating" this tech wonder will affect the overal steath of the aircraft.....

 

[gubbi]

Then why IAF wants FGFA with they could have done the way we did converted SU-30MK to MKI.

Thats exactly what I said earlier. Su-30 was already a ready platform. India wanted air-superiority fighters then on an urgent basis and hence ordered them off the shelf. Later on we modified them according to our operational needs. Our operational needs differ considerably from those of the Russians. Difference here mate.

Now with FGFA, we are onboard at the drawing stage (albeit FGFA will be derived from the T-50) and will design the fighter according to our needs. Russians will incorporate systems as per their requirements!

Thats people usually says. When India put Indian EW systems, radar computer, mission computer etc for MKI, Russian systems were also available for IAF. When IAF selected Israeli HUD, Jammer etc Russian systems were also available. When India selected French navigation Russian systems were also available. If that doesn't make MKI superior to original SU-30, than what should??

again, our requirements are different from those of the Russians. IAF doctrine is different from that of the Russians.

If India wants to buy the T-50 just the way Russia will sell to other country, whats the problem??? Why IAF needs customization if its not better?? Which Russian systems are better in offered T-50 that IAF will be fool enough to not accept? Or replacing it with inferior systems? Nothing.

Jumping the gun, arent we? T-50 is still a tech demonstrator/prototype. We still dont know its capabilities or what systems will go into it. Lets hold our horses for sometime here.

I think its a JV between Russia and India (excluding Brazil). We don't need to think about other countries.

Of course it is a JV. But then again, we will incorporate systems which fulfill IAF requirements, not those of the Russians. Russian systems are designed with their requirements in mind, not ours. We still do not have enough expertise to design and incorporate many complex systems which fulfill IAF's requirements and hence we scout around for such from other vendors.

Taking T-50 as a base, other than twin seat configuration Russian contribution to the FGFA would be least.

T-50 is the Russian contribution. What is 'least' about that? However, let me emphasize the important point here again. FGFA would be designed with IAF's requirements and Russians will modify that according to their needs - just like we did with Su-30.

 

[Urbanized Greyhound]

BUT..but this is Not any ordinary Aircraft, its a Stealth one, a technology so advanced only U.S.A have mastered until now and the Russia its just starting to master, its scary... will Indian egeniers go to Russia for stealth tech seminars? I fear that subtle changes will affect the overal steath of aircraft.....

quite right bro ...looks like it will be the Russian experts who shall be involved in the structure modification....though would be great if the DRDO scientists send design analysts and engineers to pick up aspects of stealth design from them....would be enormously beneficial to our AMCA program.....

 

[kingdurgaking]

No country will sell more advanced weapon than their arsenal.Weapon sellers always keep the best for their own countries use,more over they will not get sanction from Gov to do it.Eg Mig 31

I guess you are wrong... Russia already sold us MKI which was better than there arsenal.. MKI was the first aircraft which has both Russian and western components.. .... Atleast for us Russia gives us the concession ....