Russia-Ukraine War - News and Developments PART 2

[Wergeland]

First of all, they were built in Ukraine, not Russia.

Second of all, they discontinue SCUD like 20 years ago when they were replaced by Iskander, it's lucky if they have 200 stored somewhere they can use.

Thirdly, you have to be blind to not see the different between SCUD storm and carpet bombing. A SCUD carries 600-900kg (Depends on type) warhead. A B-52 carrying 18-24 Mk-84 2000lbs bomb (24 with external pylon), 50+ Mk-82 500lbs bomb. Which mean each B-52 payload would be equal to 48-60 SCUD missile. 4 B-52H would probably get the entire payload of 300 SCUD. Can you see the different?

View attachment 870158

B-52 is a monter truck no doubt. And still going strong after seven decades.

Slight offtopic but is there any plan to replace the B-52s? I mean you guys have the Lancer and new Raider but that wont be in great numbers like Stratofortresses, i assume?

 

[Hack-Hook]

You don't expect to fight a war without casualty, We expected to lose some of the aircraft when we fight, if you think taking one F-117 (Which was 18 years old tech by the time it was shot down by the way) and RQ-4 would stop the US Air Force. Well, you probably need to think again. We will just go at you time and time again until you either run out of radar or you are too afraid to switch them on.

the tech used to take the plane down was a lot older than 18 year old
and why you don't get it . you said you use sead airplanes to destroy enemy air defense radar , i pointed to you that its right that having radars are nice but there are air defense assets that can work without that radar and don't need it
what it has to do with expecting casualties . by the way eastern countries tolerate casualties a lot better than western ones after all its USA that when face casualties have problem back home.

In WW2, we lost 10,000 B-17 and B-24, over 100,000 crew lost to keep bombing Germany daylight. We lost 3000 fix wing and 30 B-52 to fly arc light mission in Vietnam. That's how you dominate the sky. If you expect to fight a war without any casualty, then probably you should never be in the Military.

in Vietnam you lost how much 10000 soldier, 20000 soldier and you knew what happened , what about Afghanistan . went the time your people could tolerate casualties

And finally, again, do you think if Russia have 300+ usable Scud, wouldn't they had use them already? Instead of using repurposed S-300 missile? Dude, there is a reason why they didn't months into the war.

maybe they are not desperate enough to do so

That's not how this work. Well, at least if this was a US Missile.

You don't break down the warhead because you will expose the circuitry and you also run a risk that when you put the warhead back in the missile it will fry your circuit. That's why we keep the Engine on the plane when we store them in Davis-Monthan. Maybe Russian stuff are a lot easier to maintain? I don't know.

don't knew we store the warhead separately and warhead of scud don't have that much of circuity.

and lol, you probably never restore old car before....Oil change and battery may work if you store for a few year (probably 5 or less) 20? You will most likely need an engine rebuilt or at least a dissemble and wash if you want it to function properly. Unless you are storing them in one of those Intel Facilities that store Computer CPUs.

as i said depend on how you store it , if the car is in a dry place away from humidity and sun that much is enough to turn it on , is it in optimal situation certainly not .but it don\t need an engine rebuild . now if the car is stored in a car graveyard thats another matter .

 

[Gomig-21]

the tech used to take the plane down was a lot older than 18 year old
and why you don't get it . you said you use sead airplanes to destroy enemy air defense radar , i pointed to you that its right that having radars are nice but there are air defense assets that can work without that radar and don't need it
what it has to do with expecting casualties . by the way eastern countries tolerate casualties a lot better than western ones after all its USA that when face casualties have problem back home.

Yeah he lost me on that one, too. You were referring to radars and specifically SEAD related missions and nothing to do with casualties. I think he just misunderstood you and was thinking something else, but good discussion and I agree with your points.

 

[Ahmadbhutta01]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1558245849720913921

The area in yellow is what is left of Donbass for Russia to take over and achieve it's objective , all those arguments of Russia is losing are futile , once that small area is taken Russia will stop it's advances and solidify the taken area , and for every Ukrainian offensive they will target Kiev

 

[The SC]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1558101064678875145

https://twitter.com/x/status/1558090527110832134

https://twitter.com/x/status/1558090527110832134

https://twitter.com/x/status/1557978021268709376

 

[gambit]

...there are air defense assets that can work without that radar and don't need it

Such as...???

 

[gambit]

...there are air defense system that don't need radar for getting a lock on the aircraft...

Such as...???

or the Radar can be turned on just before or after firing the missile.

Tactically, this is a dubious technique, even at the speed of light.

Assuming the antenna is the 360 deg rotating type, for now. The faster the rotation, the more accurate target update AFTER lock. On the other hand, the slower the rotation, the longer the 'dwell time' of the beam on a body which improve the odds of acquiring a target in the first place. Surveillance radar rotation speed is best below the mid-20s rpm, something like between 10 - 25.

https://www.leonardo.com/documents/16277707/18388480/body_Land_Naval_Radars_LQ_mm08027_.pdf?t=1542836436655

ATCR 33S provides en-route and terminal management area services. It is an S-band air traffic control radar. The ATCR 33S is designed to be compliant with the international standards for PSR sensors. Functional and performance characteristics meet the requirements issued by ICAO and EUROCONTROL.​

Key feature​

• Designed for unattended 24 hour operation​

• MTTR of 20 minutes​

• Range - 60nm to 100nm​

• Rotation – 12rpm or 15rpm​

• Availability better than 99.999%​

• Emission Control function​

• Adaptive selection among four MTD filters​

• Extensive mapping techniques for CFAR​

• Fully coherent A-MTD​

• Automatic antenna beam switching for ground clutter suppression​

Surveillance antenna rotate at 12-15 rpm. Targeting antenna doubles or more that. But the Targeting antenna depends on the Surveillance antenna and the Surveillance antenna is the one you turn on/off in trying to escape SEAD. In SEAD/DEAD, we strike whichever transmit.

But when people thinks on/off, they think literally on/off. That is NOT how it works. Can you lock on a body with just one rotation? Yes, if the body is on a fixed test pole. But if there is a spatial-time translation body, fancy language for moving, you need several SECONDS or even MINUTES of rotation for the radar computer to calculate where the target is going. That is what they meant for on/off.

To you, I am a moving body, but to me, you are a fixed body. That mean your Surveillance and Targeting radars may need up to several minutes to lock on to me, but my HARM needs just a few ROTATIONS, not time, from you to acquire you. So if there are SEAD/DEAD fighters over you, any of them can get to you in short order to moment you transmit.

Here is the Pantsir...

Pantsir-S1

Pantsir-S1 (Russian: Панцирь-С1, NATO reporting name SA-22 Greyhound) is a combined short to medium range surface-to-air missile and anti-aircraft artillery weapon system produced by KBP of Tula, Russia. The system is a further development of SA-19/SA-N-11 and represents the latest air defence...

military-history.fandom.com

Reaction time: 4–6 seconds (including target acquisition and firing first missile),​

My HARM need just one second to detect you. I may need to maneuver to get into a favorable launch position, but essentially, I got your ground position. And no one does SEAD/DEAD better than US.

 

[Gomig-21]

But when people thinks on/off, they think literally on/off. That is NOT how it works. Can you lock on a body with just one rotation? Yes, if the body is on a fixed test pole. But if there is a spatial-time translation body, fancy language for moving, you need several SECONDS or even MINUTES of rotation for the radar computer to calculate where the target is going. That is what they meant for on/off.

This was exactly what the North Vietnamese SAM regiments & battalions were doing on the outskirts of Hanoi during the Vietnam war as they were defending the city from F-4 Phantoms & A-4 Skyhawks bombardments which ended up introducing the Wild Weasels SEAD F-100 Super Sabers that would escort the F-4s & Skyhawks as decoys to fool the turning on and off of the NV SAM radar stations that were doing exactly that. The Weasels would come into radar range of mostly NV SA-2 SAMs that would then turn one radar on then turn it off, while simultaneously or shortly after turn another one on somewhere else and keep that going to fool the Wild Weasels. Listening the F-100 Super Saber pilots talk about that on the Military Channel when it was active was very interesting.

They also talked about trying to stay as far as possible when attempting to take out the SAM units by lobbying their dumb bombs to get more distance out of them. Some fascinating stuff.

 

[Hassan Al-Somal]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1558156418791968769

The Head of the Military Department was presented with the latest developments in the field of armoured vehicles and weapons, and was told on options for upgrading equipment in service with the Russian army.

Minister of Defence inspected the latest models of armament, military and special equipment produced at the enterprises.

Sergei Shoigu was also shown the technological process and production lines at which various military equipment is assembled.

Minister of Defence held working meetings with the leadership of the enterprises and the relevant military administration bodies.

 

[Hassan Al-Somal]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1558076151263887364

 

[jhungary]

the tech used to take the plane down was a lot older than 18 year old
and why you don't get it . you said you use sead airplanes to destroy enemy air defense radar , i pointed to you that its right that having radars are nice but there are air defense assets that can work without that radar and don't need it
what it has to do with expecting casualties . by the way eastern countries tolerate casualties a lot better than western ones after all its USA that when face casualties have problem back home.

It's you who don't get it.

No tech is perfect, as I said, you DON'T EXPECT HIGH TECH MEANS YOU WILL FLY ABOVE DANGER. You ALWAYS expect casualty. It's not that 1 single sorties of SEAD and Iron-Hand that stop your radar from going. It's 24/7 coverage of those plane, that make you think twice before you turn on the radar.

Of course, you can try to fight us, and we may take some loses, but that is the way war is fought, be it with the US, Russia or China. The capability we had is not to send a couple of squadrons of F-16 to do SEAD, the ability we had is we can do this all day long and couple with attack aircraft that can neutral the threat ANYTIME, which is the way you contest Air Superiority. We forced you to turn off the radar, or turn it on to fight us so we can destroy you. That is what Gaining Air Superiority means.

And you can't work AA system without Radar, unless you are talking about short range Infrared Homing Missile........

And no, if you think Western Country have a problem facing casualty, that would be a big mistake, it really depends on how you see it. All it takes is a reason for war, and that happened in both side of the world, it's not a Eastern thing vs the Western thing, if you think American is not willing to die for a clause, then you probably will need to rethink your way of thinking.

in Vietnam you lost how much 10000 soldier, 20000 soldier and you knew what happened , what about Afghanistan . went the time your people could tolerate casualties

Dude, it's the time, not the lost that draw American back, and in Afghanistan case, it's Donald Trump, American Public wanted to stay in Afghanistan,

The War In Afghanistan: A Polling Post-Mortem

In an April 2021 Fox News poll, 37% of registered voters said the US should remove all troops from Afghanistan, while 50% said some should remain for counterterrorism purposes. When the question is asked as a straight stay or go, Americans want to leave.

www.forbes.com

Only 37% of the people who polled wanted Troop completely removed from Afghanistan. And this is done BEFORE Kabul Collapse.

maybe they are not desperate enough to do so

Not desperate to do so but desperate enough to repurpose S-300 into ground attack role? Sure, let's try to make a SAM with 200KG warhead worked at ground attack than using the "Ready to Go" (As per you) SCUD that is in storage??

don't knew we store the warhead separately and warhead of scud don't have that much of circuity.

as i said depend on how you store it , if the car is in a dry place away from humidity and sun that much is enough to turn it on , is it in optimal situation certainly not .but it don\t need an engine rebuild . now if the car is stored in a car graveyard thats another matter .

Again, I don't know about SCUD, we store our plane with engine attached and missile with warhead attached (without fuze of course)

And again, you are talking about a car that had not moved at all for 20 years. Not just store it somewhere and turn it on once in a while. Moving part needs lubrication, and Lube dissolve and crud over time, if you had not turn on an engine in 20 years, that lub is going to be beyond "Milkshake" it will be just some crud laying on the engine surface, if you turn on that engine with those thing in there, it will destory your engine.

that is even before you have potential heat damage, weather effect and natural deterioration and so on

B-52 is a monter truck no doubt. And still going strong after seven decades.

Slight offtopic but is there any plan to replace the B-52s? I mean you guys have the Lancer and new Raider but that wont be in great numbers like Stratofortresses, i assume?

The Air Force planned to acquire 100 B-21 Raider to replace all Strategic Bomber (Included B-52, B-1 and B-2) Considering there are about 80 B-52H left in service and roughly the same number of B-1 and 20 B-2.

 

[jhungary]

Such as...???


Tactically, this is a dubious technique, even at the speed of light.

Assuming the antenna is the 360 deg rotating type, for now. The faster the rotation, the more accurate target update AFTER lock. On the other hand, the slower the rotation, the longer the 'dwell time' of the beam on a body which improve the odds of acquiring a target in the first place. Surveillance radar rotation speed is best below the mid-20s rpm, something like between 10 - 25.

https://www.leonardo.com/documents/16277707/18388480/body_Land_Naval_Radars_LQ_mm08027_.pdf?t=1542836436655

ATCR 33S provides en-route and terminal management area services. It is an S-band air traffic control radar. The ATCR 33S is designed to be compliant with the international standards for PSR sensors. Functional and performance characteristics meet the requirements issued by ICAO and EUROCONTROL.​

Key feature​

• Designed for unattended 24 hour operation​

• MTTR of 20 minutes​

• Range - 60nm to 100nm​

• Rotation – 12rpm or 15rpm​

• Availability better than 99.999%​

• Emission Control function​

• Adaptive selection among four MTD filters​

• Extensive mapping techniques for CFAR​

• Fully coherent A-MTD​

• Automatic antenna beam switching for ground clutter suppression​

Surveillance antenna rotate at 12-15 rpm. Targeting antenna doubles or more that. But the Targeting antenna depends on the Surveillance antenna and the Surveillance antenna is the one you turn on/off in trying to escape SEAD. In SEAD/DEAD, we strike whichever transmit.

But when people thinks on/off, they think literally on/off. That is NOT how it works. Can you lock on a body with just one rotation? Yes, if the body is on a fixed test pole. But if there is a spatial-time translation body, fancy language for moving, you need several SECONDS or even MINUTES of rotation for the radar computer to calculate where the target is going. That is what they meant for on/off.

To you, I am a moving body, but to me, you are a fixed body. That mean your Surveillance and Targeting radars may need up to several minutes to lock on to me, but my HARM needs just a few ROTATIONS, not time, from you to acquire you. So if there are SEAD/DEAD fighters over you, any of them can get to you in short order to moment you transmit.

Here is the Pantsir...

Pantsir-S1

Pantsir-S1 (Russian: Панцирь-С1, NATO reporting name SA-22 Greyhound) is a combined short to medium range surface-to-air missile and anti-aircraft artillery weapon system produced by KBP of Tula, Russia. The system is a further development of SA-19/SA-N-11 and represents the latest air defence...

military-history.fandom.com

Reaction time: 4–6 seconds (including target acquisition and firing first missile),​

My HARM need just one second to detect you. I may need to maneuver to get into a favorable launch position, but essentially, I got your ground position. And no one does SEAD/DEAD better than US.

lol, whenever I see people saying "You can just turn on the radar" like there is a on/off button like my light switch, switch it and the light turn on.......I laugh, and then I say, can you turn on your computer and immediately get to work?

Set aside the program and OS to boot, let's say that take less than 1 second (They are not) people don't know a radar have to be able to complete at least 1 full sweep before they can detect any incoming air threat. That's because you basically pulse microwave to the target and wait for it to bounce back to your receiver. Radar can't work until 1 full sweep so they can "arrest" the wave and catch the threat.

But then how many people really did operate an Air Defence Radar or even looked at a Radar Screen in his life? I am guessing you and me are the dying breed.

Yeah he lost me on that one, too. You were referring to radars and specifically SEAD related missions and nothing to do with casualties. I think he just misunderstood you and was thinking something else, but good discussion and I agree with your points.

I was saying you cannot expect to win a war (or in this case, win air superiority) without any lost. Both in the air and on ground.

It's my job to bait you and attack you, it is up to you to start your defence. If you fight us, you may get some of my plane, but the rest will destroy you, thus taking that capability out, and if you don't fight us, we keep on doing them so we can fly anytime until you decided to fight us. You keep your pressure up. It's not a single sortie matter.

SEAD is not just firing a beam riding missile (By the way, his understand of how Air Defence system works are all wrong as me and @gambit explained) it's about how much you are willing to lose to carry out those mission and how much that benefit your fight to gain Air Superiority.

That is what I think why Russia failed to gain Air Superiority in this war, really, they don't try to fight the Ukrainian Air and Ground defence.

 

[patero]

But then how many people really did operate an Air Defence Radar or even looked at a Radar Screen in his life? I am guessing you and me are the dying breed.

How long a shift would an operator usually be on station for? I've heard it said that it is very difficult to maintain concentration for long periods and depending on the interface almost like getting hypnotized. One theory posited on the Moskva sinking was that the radar operators experienced such fatigue (and/or were possibly asleep), archived training footage of the Moskva showed the interfaces these operators used were very dated. Would more modern equipment compensate to alleviate this?

 

[RescueRanger]

They infiltrated camp bastion wearing Afghan Army uniform not tennis shoes. Your confusion is understandable, perhaps you mistook the attack on Camp Bastion for the PNS Mehran incident. You know the one in which sandal clad TTP terrorist nearly destroyed the naval air HQ...or is it the Kamra base attack circa 2012, during which the PAF Erieye fleet was nearly wiped out.

British forces were responsible for perimeter security on that day at Camp Bastion - so overall, not something you'd wanna troll about.

You know the one in which sandal clad TTP terrorist

Going to have to challenge you there. My cousin was part of the QRF that sent those fuckers who attacked PAF Minhas straight to hell.

All terrorists were clad in fatigues resembling that of the Pakistan Army and were armed with RPGs, SMGs, RGD-5's and each had a suicide vest consisting of 7 pounds of ANFO.

The attack was initiated at 0130hrs and lasted 5 hours due to the size of the complex that comprises Kamra.

Contrary to what you may or may not have read - the base was not "nearly destroyed" was it was operational 11 hours after incident.

One soldier manning a watch tower was martyred and we lost one aircraft. One too many but still, a lot of embellishment in your post.

I could go on, seeing as two of my relatives were part of the QRF that responded to the incident. But we are not here to discuss Pakistan, so let's just move on.

 

[jhungary]

How long a shift would an operator usually be on station for? I've heard it said that it is very difficult to maintain concentration for long periods and depending on the interface almost like getting hypnotized. One theory posited on the Moskva sinking was that the radar operators experienced such fatigue (and/or were possibly asleep), archived training footage of the Moskva showed the interfaces these operators used were very dated. Would more modern equipment compensate to alleviate this?

There are always 2 Radar Tech working on the one screen. When I was running my TOC in Afghanistan, we have 3 shifts with 8 hours per shift, but most of the time if we have an op going on, you stay on because you don't need to rely on info for the next shift. Usually, 1 person mark down event when the other watch the screen. And rotate every 2 or 3 hours.

Fatigue is a problem, but not really fatal, a bigger problem is to chart everything that coming and going off your screen, unlike airborne radar (like what Gambit used to) Ground radar pick up all kind of shit because it was placed closer to earth. And you will have to match EVERY event whether or not they are documented. And most of them in war are not. So what you essentially have to do is to mark down all event (blips on the screen) and then verify each event, you can't just call out hostile incoming when it was a returning UH-60 Casevac flying in ferrying a patient without telling you they are coming. You need to contact the people that blip belong to and verify with daily event chart to weed out all friendly activities. Only when you can't match it with anything, you can start calling that a hostile. That takes time. Time you don't have if you are being attacked.

This is what I think that got the Moskva by the way, Ukrainian may fly drones or something to try to overwhelm the Russian radar. Outside visual range, all you can see is a blip and how fast it was moving. You don't know if that is a drone, a plane or even were it enemy or friends. The more target that shows up, the more work piled on the radar crew. And unless you launch at every unknown target and bring them all down, it would have to verify somehow. And again, that take time. And all you need is for the Radar tech to look away from the screen at the right moment. And if you put enough target in the air, that bound to happen....