Russia to build 12 nuclear-powered Leader-class DDGs

[mike2000]

Exactly. I mean, it's great that Russia has ambitions, but looking at the speed of building of several projects, especially projects regarding ships, hasn't been implemented according to what Russia was projecting a few years back.
Everything else such as this new destroyer, brings too much uncertainty. The economy has slowed down due to sanctions, and I don't know where they will find funding for this as Russia is spending 4,2% of its GDP on weapons already.

This is exactly the point i have been trying to make, Russia is still tryingto relive its soviet days, not knowing that time is longgg gone, and they wont be a super power again anytime soon(many other developing countries like India. Brazil, Mexico etc are growing much faster than them and still have much more potential/room for growth than Russia). So in the coming decades Russia stand/influence in the world will only decrease relative to other developing countries.

Morever as you pointed out, Russia still tend to overspend on its military(same mistake it made during its soviet days), neglecting other more crucial areas of its economy like manufacturing,electronics etc. since Russia still relies alot on its Oil/Gas and defence industries for growth, all of which are volatile to market/external conditions and can damge the russian economy if when prices change/countries decide not to go for their weapons etc.

Russia spending 4.2% of its gdp on defence is huge, even Japan with an economy almost 3 times Russia's still spends way less than Russia on its defence i.e 1.2% of its GDP, India also spends less than Russia militarily i.e just 2.5% of its GDP , and even China with an economy over 5(soon 6) times that of Russia still spends way less than Russia on its military just 2.1% of its GDP. The U.S spends much more , but its can afford to, since its the worlds sole super power and global policeman, with allies/military bases around the globe and the most robust/advance technological industries/companies in the world on which it relies for its global dominance/hegemony.So the U.S has an economy/industry/companies to back this with, but this is not the case with Russia, so this is rather unsustainable for such a country. Lets see how things play out in the coming decades anyway. Hopefully it wont be U.S.S.R 2.0

I wonder if their budget can support such an expansion with a declining economy? Not only are new ships costly, but over the long-term nuclear powered ships are very, very expensive, especially during mid-life reactor maintenance. Cost, and a shift towards alternative fuels, was the reason the USN has not built a nuclear cruiser since the Long Beach Class. I support a return of the nuclear ship to the high seas, but only if done right and the Russians have a problem with this caveat.

Well said bro. lets leave the Russian to it, and see how they will handle all these with their economy/industry. Lets just wait and watch.

 

[Barmaley]

The economy has slowed down due to sanctions,

It's your wishful thinking.

Russian GDP still grow, actually. While GDP of most EU countries being in recession for years.

Anyway, I've never seen in Russian news about this Lieder project and exact numbers of ships.

Here is a Concern Agat vid on the 'Leader' ship, by the looks a further development of project 22350

It's export version of project 22350.

 

[Penguin]

It's your wishful thinking.

Russian GDP still grow, actually. While GDP of most EU countries being in recession for years.

Anyway, I've never seen in Russian news about this Lieder project and exact numbers of ships.



It's export version of project 22350.

mmm, sure about that? That would mean the export version is more modern than the Russian navy ships ... very unrussian.
Also, I was under the impression the export version looked like this (project 22356):

 

[Barmaley]

mmm, sure about that? That would mean the export version is more modern than the Russian navy ships ...

Pretty sure.
That's also doesn't look modern, it's looks exactly the same, except for lack of some radars (should i mention them?)

I was under the impression the export version looked like this (project 22356):

As one of the variant.
The most important part: The buyer can choice a configuration of the ship. So the price will be also different.

 

[PRC2025]

It's your wishful thinking.

Russian GDP still grow, actually. While GDP of most EU countries being in recession for years.

.

Your way of start a discussion with "you wish" is just pure BS. I do not wish anything bad on Russia - I am just stating facts. Read what I said - I said "slowing down".

You say: "still growing". Yes, 0,5% is maybe a growth to you, but with 8 percent inflation, it is practically a stand still.

Next year (2015), isn't looking good for Russia either, so economic realities are very much relevant with anything that has to do with military plans and domestic weapons orders.

Second of all, it is not just about finding money for these ships. It's about technics, technology and infrastructure.

If we look at the frigate Gorskhov, it is way behind it's schedule. So it does show that even with funding available, it doesn't mean that Russia will be able to produce the number of ships within the preferred time frame.

Given the economy of Russia for this year, and projections for 2015 and beyond, it will be hard to see how things will develop along with Russia's ambitions.

This is Russia's fault. You produce weapons for other countries, instead of actually supplying Russia's military FIRST, and then export when Russia has what it needs to have, so this is a huge problem - not to mention the corruption.

Other countries have Improved Kilos, while Russia has barely any. Other countries such as India has Talwar frigates, but Russia has barely commitioned first Grigorovich that will be stationed in the Black Sea Fleet.

Other countries have way too many Flankers, compared to what Russia has. There are so many examples. Same goes with T-90 MBT. India is going to end up having more of them than Russia. I wounder if the same faith awaits T-99 Armata aswell.

These are just few examples, and it shows how dependent Russia is on weapons exports, when they have to sell modern weapons to other countries first, ahead of their own military forces.

As I stated earlier, lets see how many Gorskhov frigates Russia has by 2020, in addition to two Mistral and 2nd Kirov, before start to dream about DDGs in 2025 and beyond.

Carriers are even bigger unrealistic dream, so that's not even worth mentioning as they are even more expencive and require even bigger infrastructure than this proposed DDG "Leader".

So all this now is just "theory" we are discussing. A theory that is not "sustainable" given the economy and infrastructure for these "future ships".

 

[Barmaley]

I am just stating facts.

No, you don't.

Read what I said - I said "slowing down".

You said "slowing down due to sanctions". which is wrongful again.

Yes, 0,5% is maybe a growth to you, but with 8 percent inflation, it is practically a stand still.

If you had a little knowledge of economic, you probably should know that GDP growth including an inflation and others factors.

Given the economy of Russia for this year, and projections for 2015 and beyond, it will be hard to see how things will develop along with Russia's ambitions.

You can also keep your projection which is based on some newspaper articles for yourself.

This is Russia's fault. You produce weapons for other countries, instead of actually supplying Russia's military FIRST, and then export when Russia has what it needs to have, so this is a huge problem - not to mention the corruption.
Other countries have Improved Kilos, while Russia has barely any. Other countries such as India has Talwar frigates, but Russia has barely commitioned first Grigorovich that will be stationed in the Black Sea Fleet.
Other countries have way too many Flankers, compared to what Russia has. There are so many examples. Same goes with T-90 MBT. India is going to end up having more of them than Russia. I wounder if the same faith awaits T-99 Armata aswell.

I see, you don't really know about Russian Navy or Air force has in service. Both wrong for Flankers (do you already forgot about Su-27SM\SM3\UB\\Su-30SM\M2\ Su-33\Su-34 ) and as for T-90. There is more that 500+ of them in service.

corruption.

You can keep repeat it a as swear word, but I think that the Russia is less corrupt compare to the US or the EU.

These are just few examples, and it shows how dependent Russia is on weapons exports, when they have to sell modern weapons to other countries first, ahead of their own military force

But it doesn't. The weapon export is only bln per year. The vast majority of orders for weapons comes from Mod, i.e. domestically.

Honestly, I think you aren't really aware about the situation and don't want to spend my time on you.

 

[PRC2025]

No, you don't.
You said "slowing down due to sanctions". which is wrongful again.
If you had a little knowledge of economic, you probably should know that GDP growth including an inflation and others factors.
You can also keep your projection which is based on some newspaper articles for yourself.I see, you don't really know about Russian Navy or Air force has in service. Both wrong for Flankers (do you already forgot about Su-27SM\SM3\UB\\Su-30SM\M2\ Su-33\Su-34 ) and as for T-90. There is more that 500+ of them in service.

You can keep repeat it a as swear word, but I think that the Russia is less corrupt compare to the US or the EU.

But it doesn't. The weapon export is only bln per year. The vast majority of orders for weapons comes from Mod, i.e. domestically.
Honestly, I think you aren't really aware about the situation and don't want to spend my time on you.

Ah, gotta love a RDF StronKer
Yes, it is slowing don't because of sanctions indeed. And it is extremely funny when a RDF StronKer is going to tell me about economics.
Many serious sources have pointed out how Russian economy is going down, and even Moody's is estimating recession for Russia next year.

Either way, you can keep calling a 0,5% for "growth", but every other sane person does see it's a huge slowdown, and basically a stand still. But I am sure you will give me some GlobalR, VoltaireNet and Col "Cassad" sources, lmao.

My socalled projections are based on how much your Russian projections has FAILED a few years back. Looking at how things stand today, things are going worse and worse. When Russia made projections a few years back, the economy was booming and the same with the oil price, That is no longer the case.

Su-33 was NEVER exported. Su-34 JUST GOT RECENTLY into the service. I am talking about everything from 1990s and until recently - but I don't talk about products that hasn't been exported yet. Su-33, Su-34 are not exported, and Russia has a extremely low number of Flankers that actually work compared to countries such as India for example.

India operates also over 500+ T-90. Algeria has over 300 of them. That number might get up to 500 aswell. The point is, the things Russia should have on their own, long time ago, was exported. Improved Kilos, Talwars, Flankers Su-30MKI and others, T-90s and several other products.

Heck, I can even mention the carrier that was sold to India. At least it's refurbished, while the Russian carrier is according to several sources falling apart.

You can spin all your fantasy StronKer stories the way you want. I am just stating the facts, and the facts are that most of Russian Navy frigates and destroyers and subs are extremely old, while other countries have newer Russian frigates and subs such as Improved Kilos & Talwars, while Russian Black Sea Fleet has old, rusty bulks in service, that have just recently started being replaced by the first Grigorovich and soon the 1st Improved Kilo.

The same goes for other socalled fleets. Gorskhov frigates are way beyond schedule, and who knows when FRENCH Mistral is going to arrive. Still, Mistral is no carrier anyway.

It's been announced and you can read about it online: "Russia's defence budget hit by slowdown" on Financial Times.

So you need to learn that when discussing with people, or at least with me, I refer to serious sources, and not to some pro-stronKer fantasy.

The corruption is indeed A LOT worse in Russia than in the U.S. & EU. It's just a fact. The corruption eats up half of Russia's GDP actually.

RUSSIA Corruption takes 50 per cent of Russia’s GDP - Asia News

But you can of course continue to "spin this your way", but it won't make it go away. The projections Russia had few years back regarding production, compared to delayed results today, speak for themselves.

 

[mike2000]

Ah, gotta love a RDF StronKer
Yes, it is slowing don't because of sanctions indeed. And it is extremely funny when a RDF StronKer is going to tell me about economics.
Many serious sources have pointed out how Russian economy is going down, and even Moody's is estimating recession for Russia next year.

Either way, you can keep calling a 0,5% for "growth", but every other sane person does see it's a huge slowdown, and basically a stand still. But I am sure you will give me some GlobalR, VoltaireNet and Col "Cassad" sources, lmao.

My socalled projections are based on how much your Russian projections has FAILED a few years back. Looking at how things stand today, things are going worse and worse. When Russia made projections a few years back, the economy was booming and the same with the oil price, That is no longer the case.

Su-33 was NEVER exported. Su-34 JUST GOT RECENTLY into the service. I am talking about everything from 1990s and until recently - but I don't talk about products that hasn't been exported yet. Su-33, Su-34 are not exported, and Russia has a extremely low number of Flankers that actually work compared to countries such as India for example.

India operates also over 500+ T-90. Algeria has over 300 of them. That number might get up to 500 aswell. The point is, the things Russia should have on their own, long time ago, was exported. Improved Kilos, Talwars, Flankers Su-30MKI and others, T-90s and several other products.

Heck, I can even mention the carrier that was sold to India. At least it's refurbished, while the Russian carrier is according to several sources falling apart.

You can spin all your fantasy StronKer stories the way you want. I am just stating the facts, and the facts are that most of Russian Navy frigates and destroyers and subs are extremely old, while other countries have newer Russian frigates and subs such as Improved Kilos & Talwars, while Russian Black Sea Fleet has old, rusty bulks in service, that have just recently started being replaced by the first Grigorovich and soon the 1st Improved Kilo.

The same goes for other socalled fleets. Gorskhov frigates are way beyond schedule, and who knows when FRENCH Mistral is going to arrive. Still, Mistral is no carrier anyway.

It's been announced and you can read about it online: "Russia's defence budget hit by slowdown" on Financial Times.

So you need to learn that when discussing with people, or at least with me, I refer to serious sources, and not to some pro-stronKer fantasy.

The corruption is indeed A LOT worse in Russia than in the U.S. & EU. It's just a fact. The corruption eats up half of Russia's GDP actually.

RUSSIA Corruption takes 50 per cent of Russia’s GDP - Asia News

But you can of course continue to "spin this your way", but it won't make it go away. The projections Russia had few years back regarding production, compared to delayed results today, speak for themselves.

Well said couldnt agree more. Moreover despite all these Russia still overspends on its military as well.

Finance minister warns Russia can't afford military spending plan| Reuters

 

[Penguin]

Pretty sure.
That's also doesn't look modern, it's looks exactly the same, except for lack of some radars (should i mention them?)

Be my guest

I don't think this doesn't look modern

As one of the variant.
The most important part: The buyer can choice a configuration of the ship. So the price will be also different.

Indeed, the model I posted has pretty much the same stuff as 11356, just on a newer hull design.

 

[Prechko]

Ah, gotta love a RDF StronKer
Yes, it is slowing don't because of sanctions indeed. And it is extremely funny when a RDF StronKer is going to tell me about economics.
Many serious sources have pointed out how Russian economy is going down, and even Moody's is estimating recession for Russia next year.

Either way, you can keep calling a 0,5% for "growth".

Slowdown in Russian economy started 2013 , before sanctions. In fact due to sanctions , economic growth somewhat picked upward due to higher domestic industrial production to replace European products.

My socalled projections are based on how much your Russian projections has FAILED a few years back. Looking at how things stand today, things are going worse and worse. When Russia made projections a few years back, the economy was booming and the same with the oil price, That is no longer the case.

Oil is priced in US dollars , when oil price goes down and ruble depreciates they get more rubles for every dollar they sell. Get the picture? Since they buy 99% domestic for the military , it doesn`t affect their weapon purchases.

Su-33 was NEVER exported. Su-34 JUST GOT RECENTLY into the service. I am talking about everything from 1990s and until recently - but I don't talk about products that hasn't been exported yet. Su-33, Su-34 are not exported, and Russia has a extremely low number of Flankers that actually work compared to countries such as India for example.

All Flanker series combined number is about 500 planes currently in service with VVS , i`m struggling to see how these numbers can be considered as low.

India operates also over 500+ T-90. Algeria has over 300 of them. That number might get up to 500 aswell. The point is, the things Russia should have on their own, long time ago, was exported. Improved Kilos, Talwars, Flankers Su-30MKI and others, T-90s and several other products.

So what? You got to ask , do they need more T-90s , the answer is no. They have quite good modernization of T-72B , from which they get the most of what brand new T-90A can give them. They will spend their money on new generation MBT. This is called rational behaviour and spending,

Heck, I can even mention the carrier that was sold to India. At least it's refurbished, while the Russian carrier is according to several sources falling apart.

Can you show some sources?

You can spin all your fantasy StronKer stories the way you want. I am just stating the facts, and the facts are that most of Russian Navy frigates and destroyers and subs are extremely old, while other countries have newer Russian frigates and subs such as Improved Kilos & Talwars, while Russian Black Sea Fleet has old, rusty bulks in service, that have just recently started being replaced by the first Grigorovich and soon the 1st Improved Kilo.

Again talking nonsense , most of Russian ships currently serving are in good condition. They`ve been built like the most USN ships during last decade of Cold war. I haven`t heard anyone calling USN as old.

The same goes for other socalled fleets. Gorskhov frigates are way beyond schedule, and who knows when FRENCH Mistral is going to arrive. Still, Mistral is no carrier anyway.

Gorshkov frigates are fitted 100% by tech developed post-Cold war which means , that every tech and system needed to be developed and panned out before fitted into ship.

Reason why Gorshkov is late is simple , naval engineering and shipbuilding have seen very little money 1992-2007 and it is time consuming to bring it on track but results are quite obvious , look at the speed which project 636Ms are rolled out. Later Gorshkov class ships will also be much much quicker finished.

France has a contract for Mistrals , if France doesn`t respect their obligation they will lose reputation as independent and reliable weapons provider. And this is something that weighs more than pure gold. Either way , it`s more in French interests to deliver product than Russia`s.

The corruption is indeed A LOT worse in Russia than in the U.S. & EU. It's just a fact. The corruption eats up half of Russia's GDP actually.

Do you comprehend that Americans have legalized bribery , they call it lobbysm. From European POV this is corruption but Americans don`t see it that way. Russians have more more widespread "down" corruption , but top level corruption is global problem , and if anything crisis of 2008 showed how corrupt are top level elites in US.

 

[PRC2025]

Well said couldnt agree more. Moreover despite all these Russia still overspends on its military as well.

Finance minister warns Russia can't afford military spending plan| Reuters

Yup, that link pretty much sums it all up. No point in replying to stronKers. It's Russian sources that are now admitting that they just cannot even spend what they projected back in 2010.

They want to keep it's focus on space, submarines and the air force, but it needs to be cut back somewhere else. Somewhere else in this case is going to be ships & number of ships, and ground forces among several other areas.

Even with the focus on the air force and submarines, it just doesn't look like they will reach their target in 2020 anyway. As I pointed out earlier, it is not just about the funding, which is extremely important, but it is also about technology and the infrastructure needed to build what was "visioned" back in 2010, by the year 2020.

What you are I are saying is not "anti-Russian". It's just facts, and I think it's unfortunate that Russia has exported several military items to other countries, instead of introducing those items into their own ranks. If Russia had done that, what I was "complaining" about, then Russia would have had much more modern, conventional arsenal today.

To some extent, this reminds me of Ukraina; They were exporting T-84 MBT, but their own forces are sitting with old, rusty T-64.

The same problem now is with Black Sea Fleet. Old, rusty ships which should have been replaced long time ago. The goal is to replace the BSF ships with 6 Grigorovich and 6 Improved Kilos.

That could have been done long time ago, but nooooooo, Russia rather wants to build Talwars for India, and Improved Kilos for Vietnam, while it's own Black Sea Fleet has fallen apart.

So it's nothing "anti-Russian" to point the things you and I are pointing out - it's just sad that there is so much corruption and mismanagement, having priority to build frigates and subs for India and Vietnam, when they should've built those for their own forces FIRST.

 

[PRC2025]

Look at that - while I was talking about Black Sea Fleet, a destroyer there named Kerch was burning.

This old rusty hulk is over 40 years old, and hasn't been well-maintained or considerably upgraded. On the contrary, it should have been taken out of service long time ago and replaced with Grigorovich and Improved Kilos, but I guess it's more "important" to build those same ships for other countries, while Russian BSF continues to operate rusty, not well-maintained ships with almost no upgrades since they joined service many years ago.

 

[mike2000]

Yup, that link pretty much sums it all up. No point in replying to stronKers. It's Russian sources that are now admitting that they just cannot even spend what they projected back in 2010.

They want to keep it's focus on space, submarines and the air force, but it needs to be cut back somewhere else. Somewhere else in this case is going to be ships & number of ships, and ground forces among several other areas.

Even with the focus on the air force and submarines, it just doesn't look like they will reach their target in 2020 anyway. As I pointed out earlier, it is not just about the funding, which is extremely important, but it is also about technology and the infrastructure needed to build what was "visioned" back in 2010, by the year 2020.

What you are I are saying is not "anti-Russian". It's just facts, and I think it's unfortunate that Russia has exported several military items to other countries, instead of introducing those items into their own ranks. If Russia had done that, what I was "complaining" about, then Russia would have had much more modern, conventional arsenal today.

To some extent, this reminds me of Ukraina; They were exporting T-84 MBT, but their own forces are sitting with old, rusty T-64.

The same problem now is with Black Sea Fleet. Old, rusty ships which should have been replaced long time ago. The goal is to replace the BSF ships with 6 Grigorovich and 6 Improved Kilos.

That could have been done long time ago, but nooooooo, Russia rather wants to build Talwars for India, and Improved Kilos for Vietnam, while it's own Black Sea Fleet has fallen apart.

So it's nothing "anti-Russian" to point the things you and I are pointing out - it's just sad that there is so much corruption and mismanagement, having priority to build frigates and subs for India and Vietnam, when they should've built those for their own forces FIRST.

I agree with you on this. Though its not only the Russians who thinks anything being said about their country which isnt to their liking is immediately labeled anti Russian. same with other members from other countries here like India, China, Pakistan , Turkey , Saudi arabia etc. I have witnessed that several times. Even though i know truth hurts, but it shouldnt always be that way, especially on topics which are obvious facts/truths. Anyway, as you said it has more to do with mismanagement,lack of proper planning/capital and corruption on the Russian side, reason why the Russian are selling more sophisticated weapons to other countries while their own forces dont even have those in their own inventory.lol They need all the cash/capital they cant get anyway, since after the fall of the U.S.S.R they went broke and are still recovering from it, so at least they have an excuse.

 

[ziaulislam]

oil,oil and oil..

 

[vostok]

I can enlighten some people who asked where Russia will take money. Russia has a third biggest defense budget, so it is not the problem to find money on construction. However, I want to note that these destroyers will be used to replace those that are now in service. That is, during the construction of new one, old will be withdrawn.
Of course, most likely Russia will not build 12 nuclear destroyers. Maximum 6 of them will have nuclear power, it is simply considered as an option.