Russia Declares America's Stealth Fighters and Bombers to be 'Paper Fiction'

[Stephen Cohen]

The T-50 itself is as good as what's coming out of the US now. Better in many respects. For example, the T-50 is built using ultra wideband RAS. This stuff's not on the F-35 itself. And the avionics on the T-50 are fully digital, the F-22 and F-35 are not, they use analog AESA radars.

Of course, the FGFA is a whole different cup of tea. But that aircraft is meant to completely surpass the American jets to the point where most comparisons will fall flat on the face.

Then what are we Indians waiting for

We should grab PAK FA -- ASAP

 

[randomradio]

Then what are we Indians waiting for

We should grab PAK FA -- ASAP

All such decisions will be made after Rafale.

There is a possibility we may go for 60-65 PAK FAs direct from the Russian line between 2021 and 2024, before FGFA is ready. It depends on how we spend our money though.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

All such decisions will be made after Rafale.

There is a possibility we may go for 60-65 PAK FAs direct from the Russian line between 2021 and 2024, before FGFA is ready. It depends on how we spend our money though.

If PAK FA has matured and if we Indians throw tantrums ; Russia may sell PAK FA
to China

 

[randomradio]

If PAK FA has matured and if we Indians throw tantrums ; Russia may sell PAK FA
to China

China won't buy PAK FA. And Russia needs India to proceed to the next level. We will be giving them 400B rubles to complete the development of the aircraft, apart from ordering 200-300 jets right off the bat, so our tantrums are justified, even the Russians know that.

 

[gambit]

Ufimtsev is not the 'creator' or 'father' of 'stealth'. The US, specifically Lockheed, is. Russia is so behind and troubled that she must resort to distortion of facts and logic.

https://defence.pk/threads/f-22-f-3...-news-discussions.179287/page-18#post-6285495

The T-50 itself is as good as what's coming out of the US now. Better in many respects. For example, the T-50 is built using ultra wideband RAS. This stuff's not on the F-35 itself. And the avionics on the T-50 are fully digital, the F-22 and F-35 are not, they use analog AESA radars.

Bullshit. You do not know what you are talking about. Stick to 'quantum radar' and let US know when it is working. Odds are good that we already have it.

The word 'avionics' is an umbrella word. It is a portmanteau of 'aviation' and 'electronics'. Under the general heading of avionics, there are discrete sub-systems: flight controls, radar, navigation, communication, countermeasures, instrumentation, propulsion control, environmental, fuel management, and hydraulics. Even if any of these systems have analog components, it does not make the system analog. The analog component is subordinate to the digital controls. For example, the position transducers on the hydraulics actuators are analog.

The F-22's AESA is analog beamformed ? Must be news to the pilots who flies it since multi beams forming is possible with digital.

Of course, the FGFA is a whole different cup of tea. But that aircraft is meant to completely surpass the American jets to the point where most comparisons will fall flat on the face.

Meant to ? Is that the best you got ? When the FGFA 'completely surpass the American jets' and made our F-22s and F-35s fall flat on their faces, those jets will be museum pieces as markers for US military aviation supremacy. Your FGFA will be behind ours -- again.

 

[randomradio]

Bullshit. You do not know what you are talking about. Stick to 'quantum radar' and let US know when it is working. Odds are good that we already have it.

The word 'avionics' is an umbrella word. It is a portmanteau of 'aviation' and 'electronics'. Under the general heading of avionics, there are discrete sub-systems: flight controls, radar, navigation, communication, countermeasures, instrumentation, propulsion control, environmental, fuel management, and hydraulics. Even if any of these systems have analog components, it does not make the system analog. The analog component is subordinate to the digital controls. For example, the position transducers on the hydraulics actuators are analog.

The F-22's AESA is analog beamformed ? Must be news to the pilots who flies it since multi beams forming is possible with digital.

There seems to be a misunderstanding. We aren't talking about analog vs digital electronics, we are talking about analog and digital AESAs. AESA radar can do multi-beams with analog beamforming also, that's what the F-22 does.

http://www.mptcorp.com/uploads/2/6/...igitalbeamforming_genericforpublicrelease.pdf

What the Su-30MKI and Su-35 have are Passive ESA (Hybrid PESA actually). What the F-22 and F-35 have are Analog Active ESA. What the PAK FA has is the Digital Active ESA.

In fact, DARPA is only now starting a program for Digital AESA radar.
https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/...rthrop-grumman-selected-darpa-aesa-programme/
https://globenewswire.com/news-rele...tronically-Scanned-Array-AESA-Technology.html

The PAK FA has fully digital radar, ECM, communications etc. Plus, PAK FA uses GaN for everything. The F-22 and F-35 are in effect about 5-10 years behind what is merely the Stage 1 of PAK FA. For example, F-35 is going to get DIRCM in 2025. PAK FA Stage 1 is already equipped with DIRCM. That's a 10 year lead right there for this crucial piece of tech.

The Stage 1 will create electronics for 5th gen technologies, but Stage 2 is the next cycle of advancement of the PAK FA program, first flight happened in June of this year, no pictures yet. Stage 2 will create technologies that don't exist on the F-22/F-35.

Most of it will be revolutionary, we will know more as the program progresses. That's the reason why the Su-35 costs $20-30M today, the PAK FA Stage 1 should cost $50-100M and the Stage 2/FGFA is expected to cost $225M.

The Russians/Chinese etc are not sitting around trying to make a better analog AESA, if that happens they will never catch up, instead they are skipping whatever technologies the US has made operational today in order to leapfrog ahead. The US has done the same in the past.

It is possible that you already have a quantum radar. But you need to put that on your fighter aircraft first, or it's no use storing it in a lab. The Digital AESA is no different, DARPA has recently started work on it, it will probably be used in the F-22 MLUs that will come up in 2025 or later blocks of the F-35. Until then the PAK FA Stage 1 will have superior avionics.

Meant to ? Is that the best you got ? When the FGFA 'completely surpass the American jets' and made our F-22s and F-35s fall flat on their faces, those jets will be museum pieces as markers for US military aviation supremacy. Your FGFA will be behind ours -- again.

We will see if the F-22/F-35 keep up with the PAK FA Stage 1 first, then we will worry about them being able to match Stage 2.

 

[randomradio]

@gambit
It appears Boeing would likely be getting BAE developed digital AESA for the F-15's EW system.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/291713432/EPAWSS?secret_password=jiwnnoTQXB2zZ1ogDFNA

BAE says:

EPAWSS really leverages a lot of the work we've done over the last 15-20 years providing EW suites to the F-22, F-35 and, recently, we were selected to provide a digital EW system, the DEWS system, for Boeing's Advanced F-15 program. As, an all-digital system, [EPAWSS] leverages some very agile architectures and allows us to adapt to changing threats. Its processing capability, together with the way we go about processing signals, means it's able to handle an incredible level of threat density and be extremely flexible in terms of dealing with modern Integrated Air Defense Systems (IADS).''

One of the questions surrounding the design of EPAWSS has been the choice of technology that would be used to power the system's jammer transmitters, whether a solid-state amplifier approach or more conventional traveling wave tube (TWT) technology. Walters answers that question saying BAE's approach is a GaN-based solid-state amplifier design. "We already consider it to be in the TRL-7 to TRL-9 range, and it will definitively be TRL-9 very shortly. We're already deploying this technology on other programs."

The rest of the article--

Boeing (St. Louis, MO) has chosen BAE Systems (Nashua, NH) to develop and manufacture the Eagle Passive Active Warning Survivability System (EPAWSS) for the US Air Force's F-15C and F-15E fighter aircraft. With the F-15 now scheduled to remain in service through 2040, the next-generation, all-digital, EW system is part of a multi-billion dollar program to develop a complete, integrated aircraft protection system for the aircraft as well as provide it with improved situational awareness.

EPAWSS will replace the F-15's current Tactical Electronic Warfare Suite (TEWS) on F-15C and F-15E model aircraft. Originally developed in the 1970s
and upgraded several times since then, TEWS is a federated EW system incorporating BAE Systems' (Nashua, NH) AN/ ALR-56C Radar Warning Receiver (RWR), Northrop Grumman's (Rolling Meadows, IL) AN/ALQ-135(V) radar jammer, and BAE Systems' AN/ALE-45 chaff/flares countermeasures dispenser. Intended to address both advanced RF and electro-optic/infrared (EO/IR) threats, the EPAWSS will be a multispectral system that provides wideband radar warning and RF jamming, as well as increased chaff and flare protection. As described by Brian Walters, Vice President and General Manager of Electronic Combat Solutions at BAE Systems, "To be able to operate in the future threat environment, the F-15 is going to need a new, highly-capable EW system.

EPAWSS really leverages a lot of the work we've done over the last 15-20 years providing EW suites to the F-22, F-35 and, recently, we were selected to provide a digital EW system, the DEWS system, for Boeing's Advanced F-15 program. As, an all-digital system, [EPAWSS] leverages some very agile architectures and allows us to adapt to changing threats. Its processing capability, together with the way we go about processing signals, means it's able to handle an incredible level of threat density and be extremely flexible in terms of dealing with modern Integrated Air Defense Systems (IADS).''

The US Air Force awarded Boeing, as the platform integrator, a $171 million contract for the Technology Maturation and Risk Reduction (TMRR) phase of EPAWSS. Boeing subsequently chose BAE Systems to develop and produce the system. As described by Evelyn Moore, Boeing F-15 EPAWSS Program Manager, "Although the total program is valued at over $4 billion, the Air Force doesn't necessarily have $4 billion in funding for EPAWSS right now, so the program is broken up into individual phases. We've received a contract for the design phase, and BAE is leveraging the DEWS system and pieces from EW systems on other programs that all come together in this TMRR design phase for EPAWSS at Boeing."

The Air Force and Boeing began work on EPAWSS with a small characterization contract in which they conducted trade studies on potential system performance,
installation and locations, removal of the old system, the volumes in which the new system would be installed, and other considerations. A source selection for
the EPAWSS supplier was begun in 2014. Says Moore, "We did multiple studies. We started off with four bidders and we ran through a vigorous competition process at Boeing with oversight from the Air Force and the Defense Contract Management Agency (DCMA)."

Although Boeing would not comment on the other competitors, it has been previously reported that Harris (Clifton, NJ), Northrop Grumman (Rolling Meadows, IL) and Raytheon (El Segundo, CA) had expressed interest in the program. Mike Gibbons, Boeing Vice President F-15 Programs, says "it was an iterative downselect
process, and definitely a very competitive environment. Beyond the four bidders, there were also a number of other companies that were in discussions early on to learn if their offerings might be competitive. EPAWSS is a major component of the F-15's future out beyond 2040, and BAE's system is a game-changer,
building a lot on what BAE has been doing with other EW systems both for the F-15 and other platforms."

BAE's Walters recalls the process as "a very efficient and disciplined pursuit," noting that "one thing that Boeing and the Air Force did that I think is a best practice, is that they wove in a Systems Requirements Review (SRR) as part of each competitors offering. This gave everyone an opportunity to say 'Do we all
understand the requirements, and do we all understand how we will meet the requirements?' When I first heard of this, I kind of scratched my head, but in the
end, it allowed all of us to bring forth the best solution for the F-15 and will serve the program well going forward."

One of the questions surrounding the design of EPAWSS has been the choice of technology that would be used to power the system's jammer transmitters, whether a solid-state amplifier approach or more conventional traveling wave tube (TWT) technology. Walters answers that question saying BAE's approach is a GaN-based solid-state amplifier design. "We already consider it to be in the TRL-7 to TRL-9 range, and it will definitively be TRL-9 very shortly. We're already deploying this technology on other programs."

In addition to improved aircraft protection, EPAWSS will also provide pilots with improved situational awareness. Says Walters, "This is possible because of the advancements that we've made in algorithm processing, as well as hardware performance. It's enabled us to do a lot of things on the electronic support measures (ESM) side or RWR side that provide precision location, reduce ambiguity, improve emitter ID, and better understand the intent of the different emitters. This all leads to providing the pilot with better situational awareness of the environment that he is operating in.

" EPAWSS will also improve the F-15's chaff and flare capabilities, including design work on the aircraft's tail to enable it to carry more "buckets" of both chaff and flare expendables. Moore points out that there are extensive aircraft modifications required to put a new EW system on an aircraft including, in this case, removal of the wings and replacement of the aircraft's 'tailbone' between the engine exhaust nozzles. "A lot of work has to be done all over the aircraft to support the program. We're taking off all of the TEWS components,with a savings of 13 LRUs [Line Replaceable Units] going from TEWS to EPAWSS, so a lot of weight is being removed from the aircraft, as well as providing for a smaller footprint." Moore adds that the determination of the composition of the Group A (cables, panels, etc.) and Group B (actual EPAWSS components) modification kits, including any"swing" elements was also a challenge. Boeing makes these determinations together with the Air Force. "It's always the case with a system of this complexity," says Moore. "However, we're leveraging a lot of the work that we've already performed on the Advanced F-15 and, although that is a new aircraft build and this is a retrofit, we're able to leverage some of the design that we've already done on the platform, which is helpful."

Boeing anticipates receiving a follow-on EPAWSS contract from the Air Force in September 2016 for the EMD, integration and test phase of the program. This will be followed by a low rate initial production (LRIP) phase currently anticipated for August 2019. As Moore notes, "EPAWSS is an Acquisition Category 1 program (a program over $2 billion), so we go through an extensive acquisition process and must pass through each of the Air Force's milestone gates to proceed into the next phase." In the LRIP phase, 24 F-15E model aircraft and 18 F-15C model aircraft will be modified. The remaining aircraft will be upgraded in the full-rate production phase with, ultimately, over 400 F-15E and F-15C model aircraft to be equipped with the new system. Initial Operational Capability (IOC) is targeted for 2021 for E-model aircraft, and late 2022 for C-models.

In the EPAWSS Analysis of Alternatives (AoA) phase completed last year, the Air Force and OSD made a number of recommendations for the program going
forward. Among these were a missile warning system and a fiber-optic towed decoy (FOTD), as well as advanced geolocation capabilities for the ESM system. In
order to expedite development and fielding of the most essential capabilities, however, the Air Force decided to pursue these capabilities under a follow-on "second increment" of the program. However, as explained by Moore, "Although we will have growth provisions in the system for advanced geolocation and an FOTD, the Air Force has since decided not to fund the second increment at this point. There are several threats that are of concern, but we have to balance funding against the requirements and the time frame, and the most important item is to get the capability out to the fleet as soon as possible.

So the delay with the FOTD was basically because we didn't want to hold up the entire program. We wanted to keep it moving forward." Should the Air Force decide to fund the second increment in the future, Moore says they'd anticipate a second contract to start developing the requirements, "but we wouldn't see that until FY2017." Going forward, Gibbons says they're always looking at how to link the EPAWSS EW upgrade with other ongoing activities for the F-15 in terms of life extension and other new capability upgrades. "This is, of course, always an Air Force decision, but as we look at their interest in flying the aircraft for decades through 2040 and beyond, it's obvious that there will be other upgrades and life extensions. The aircraft modifications alone mean that we will want to look for possible synergies with doing other things. With an IOC in 2021, and mods ongoing through 2029, it just makes sense that there will be other upgrades and life-extension components that will be added."

 

[gambit]

The F-22 and F-35 are in effect about 5-10 years behind what is merely the Stage 1 of PAK FA.

Speaking for the US, we have no problems if the rest of the world believes we are...errr...'behind'...Russia.

Russia's PAK-FA and India's FGFA seems to be in perpetual beta testing stage. But it is US who are 'behind' them both. All we can do is:

 

[randomradio]

Speaking for the US, we have no problems if the rest of the world believes we are...errr...'behind'...Russia.

Russia's PAK-FA and India's FGFA seems to be in perpetual beta testing stage. But it is US who are 'behind' them both. All we can do is:

Nah, look at the difference yourself. The F-35 flew in the early 2000s and will have taken 15-20 years for induction. PAK FA Stage 1 flew in 2010 and is ready for induction now. India's FGFA contract has not be signed yet, but the plan is to get to IOC in 6-8 years. FGFA is riding the coattails of the PAK FA Stage 2 anyway.

In other news, IAF tested the C-17, C-130J and IL-76 in combat exercises. They found the IL-76 was way ahead of the American aircraft.

Anyway, I think what's relevant is the post after that, the F-15's EW is getting BAE's GaN digital EW suite. That's after they designed both the F-22's and F-35's EW. The EW on the F-22 and F-35 aren't even American.

I particularly don't care what you think. All I did is give proof of what's really happening. The US is yet to catch up with Russian hardware. Right now you are buying British tech because you don't have your own hardware. The British tech is between TRL-7 and 9 while the Russian tech is ready for IOC on the PAK FA.

You go into the fight with what you have in your arsenal, not with what you have in your lab.

And believe it or not, the Pentagon has been pressuring the Indian Navy into buying the F-35B/C as part of their deal with aircraft carrier cooperation after they failed in changing IAF's mind for the Rafales.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...e-technologies-wh-official/article8775596.ece

India will be the only country outside Washington's formal treaty allies that will gain access to almost 99 per cent of latest U.S.'s defence technologies after being recognised as a ‘Major Defence Partner’, a senior Obama administration official has said.

“India [now] enjoys access to [defence] technologies that is on a par with our treaty allies. That is a very unique status. India is the only other country that enjoys that status outside our formal treaty allies,” the official told PTI explaining what ‘Major Defence Partner’ status means for India.

 

[randomradio]

Speaking for the US, we have no problems if the rest of the world believes we are...errr...'behind'...Russia.

A digital GaN seeker for MRAAMs.

 

[Penguin]

Then this is also a paper fiction (still, Russia is developing it)

 

[gambit]

The US is yet to catch up with Russian hardware

You go into the fight with what you have in your arsenal, not with what you have in your lab.

Do you not see the contradiction you just made ?

 

[randomradio]

Do you not see the contradiction you just made ?

There is no contradiction in my statement, there is only contradiction in our perspectives. You are picturing a F-22 in your argument, I'm picturing a F-X because I'm looking at long term events.

There is no threat of conflict between any major powers in the near term. The F-22 is far superior to existing jets, but only in the near term. Right now it's the mid term and long term events that really matter. That;s when Russia and China are going to grow into really big threats.

So when the Russians and Chinese introduce F-22 beating aircraft, the American counter to the new aircraft will still be in the lab.

This is a telling tale on why the USAF is getting desperate to keep up.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/usaf-wants-on-time-f-x-not-more-f-22s-422950/

Holmes says pressing forward with the air force’s Next-Generation Air Dominance programme is the better way to make up for lower-than-planned fifth-generation fighter capacity, but cannot be a technologically exotic fighter jet that takes two or three decades to develop.

“They cost too much, they take too long, they make you drive for technology that’s so far into the future that it’s really hard to achieve and by the time you spend 30 years achieving it, it may not be exactly what you want,” he explains after the hearing. “We’re trying to move to a world where we go forward with new airplanes that take advantage of technology that’s ready to manufacture and we have the manufacturing skills to do it, and what could we produce in five years or 10 years instead of 30 years?

The USAF has begun to think like the Russians do.

And it's not surprising because even third rate aerospace powers like India and China are catching up to the US now.

Why else do you think the US is doing what it is doing today?
http://www.defencenews.in/article/US-Air-Force-optimistic-about-defence-cooperation-with-India-7790

The US Air Force is optimistic about the future of co-developing and co-producing defence systems with India, US Air Force Secretary Deborah Lee James has said after her trip to the country.

“We are excited about our part of the Defence Technology Trade Initiative (DTTI). Between discussion in working groups and the growing presence of US defence industry in India, we are optimistic about the future of co-developing and co-producing defence systems,” James said in a statement on Tuesday.

The US has even amended its laws in order to supply engine technology to India. It's unique.
http://in.reuters.com/article/usa-india-defense-idINKBN0TU02720151211

The United States has updated its policy on gas-turbine engine technology transfer to India, a move that should lead to expanded cooperation in production and design of jet-engine components, a joint statement said on Thursday.

U.S. Defense Secretary Ash Carter informed Indian Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar of the decision during the latter's visit to Washington this week and said it was made possible by the strengthening relationship between two countries.

"As a result of this policy update, the Secretary is confident that the United States will be able to expand cooperation in production and design of jet-engine components," the joint statement said.

After the Chinese threatened to bomb the USS George Washington with inert warheads, your Chief of Staff Mullen made an unscheduled visit to India to meet with our top intelligence chief to discuss the escalation.

Things are moving really fast and sadly, you are unable to see it, both in the technology front and the political situation.

 

[DavidSling]

No one match U.S military technology, nor will anyone in the near future.
that includes, Russia, China, EU or Israel or any other big arms supplier

 

[UKBengali]

Speaking for the US, we have no problems if the rest of the world believes we are...errr...'behind'...Russia.

Russia's PAK-FA and India's FGFA seems to be in perpetual beta testing stage. But it is US who are 'behind' them both. All we can do is:

He is only saying that as he is Indian.

The PAK-FA is not VLO as admitted by the Russians themselves- it is more 4.5 than 5 gen.