Russia Declares America's Stealth Fighters and Bombers to be 'Paper Fiction'

[randomradio]

Anybody who said the US is 'behind' Russia and India is the one lacking mature arguments.

You will have to break it down to little pieces, not look at one whole.

The US made the F-22, great. The US is ahead, and will remain ahead, but only until the PAK FA and J-20 step into the game. That won't change. Even if the F-35 comes in, it only uses technology that's been used on the F-22, it's not something new.

Then there's the Rafale. The Rafale, true to its word, is at the same level as the F-35. It has similar RCS, similar endurance, similar electronics, similar sensor fusion, similar MMI, only the performance and payload is better on the Rafale. Dassault's CEO Trappier, in the French Senate, said that the Rafale is far superior to the F-22. The French didn't just come to that conclusion on their own, the Rafale and EF were tested in exercises with the F-22 only last year.

And then, the IAF Chief says the FGFA will be far stealthier and far more capable than the Rafale. If you can't get better than the F-35, then forget about matching up with the FGFA.

By the way, I never claimed India is ahead. You may have forgotten, but just two posts ago I said India and China are third rate aerospace powers that are catching up.

 

[DavidSling]

You will have to break it down to little pieces, not look at one whole.

The US made the F-22, great. The US is ahead, and will remain ahead, but only until the PAK FA and J-20 step into the game. That won't change. Even if the F-35 comes in, it only uses technology that's been used on the F-22, it's not something new.

Then there's the Rafale. The Rafale, true to its word, is at the same level as the F-35. It has similar RCS, similar endurance, similar electronics, similar sensor fusion, similar MMI, only the performance and payload is better on the Rafale. Dassault's CEO Trappier, in the French Senate, said that the Rafale is far superior to the F-22. The French didn't just come to that conclusion on their own, the Rafale and EF were tested in exercises with the F-22 only last year.

And then, the IAF Chief says the FGFA will be far stealthier and far more capable than the Rafale. If you can't get better than the F-35, then forget about matching up with the FGFA.

By the way, I never claimed India is ahead. You may have forgotten, but just two posts ago I said India and China are third rate aerospace powers that are catching up.

You're claiming that 4.5 gen aircraft is at the same level of 5 gen aircraft ? ru serious?

 

[randomradio]

You're claiming that 4.5 gen aircraft is at the same level of 5 gen aircraft ? ru serious?

There is this technology called active cancellation. With it you don't need shaping because you are directly canceling out the radar waves themselves. F-22/F-35 are vulnerable to VHF and multistatic radars, but a Rafale is not.

The French advertise the Rafale as a next generation aircraft, plus now they are saying it is superior to the F-35 also.

Rafale is not a 4.5th generation aircraft. Its frontal RCS is between 0.001 and 0.0001m2, with external weapons. And it has a working multi-sensor data fusion capability, something the Americans are yet to develop and deploy.

 

[DavidSling]

There is this technology called active cancellation. With it you don't need shaping because you are directly canceling out the radar waves themselves. F-22/F-35 are vulnerable to VHF and multistatic radars, but a Rafale is not.

The French advertise the Rafale as a next generation aircraft, plus now they are saying it is superior to the F-35 also.

Rafale is not a 4.5th generation aircraft. Its frontal RCS is between 0.001 and 0.0001m2, with external weapons. And it has a working multi-sensor data fusion capability, something the Americans are yet to develop and deploy.

the issue still stands irrespective of how many transmitters it carries. I would have thought that the most efficient ARC would be a phased array system, it would need to be rather large and possibly would be someything that could be placed in the dorsal spine of an aircraft to achieve maximum effect. eg the Israeli F-16I's are runoured to have an on board weasel suite in their dorsal. It's also an issue of power generation, which is why I still think that a large on board phased array system would be more efficient.


some of the sweetman article follows:

This technique is a special type of "stealthy" ECM based on the principle of wave superposition. According to the article, Rafael has two antennas separated by the length of the aircraft. The antennas emit electromagnetic waves half a wevelength out of phase with the reflected radar signal, thus effectively reducing its intensity, making the aircraft virtually disappear from the radar's screen.

Active cancellation is a highly advanced and extremely complex process. This method is not known to be used on any military aircraft, though there were speculations that Russians may be using this technique on their S-37 and possibly MiG 1.42 prototype fighters. Also it is believed that the Northrop Grumman ZSR-63 defensive aids equipment installed on B-2 bombers may be using active cancellation.

Just how complicated it is to cancel a reflected radar signal can be seens from the fact that the original incoming signal from the radar will be reflected from many spots on the aircraft's body. Each spot will produce an individual reflection with its own, often unique, amplitude and phase. The amplitude of the reflection (high amplitude means that the relection would be easier to pick up than the one with lower amplitude) would depend on many factors, such as incident angle, particular type of material, geometrical form of a certain location on the aircraft's body that produced the reflectio and some other factors. The phase shift will be dictated by the wavelength of the radar signal and the location (and geometrical form) of the particular spot that produced the reflection in question.

The return signal, picked up by the radar, would look somewhat chaotic, consisting of background noise and "spikes". Background noise is produced by ionization levels of atmosphere, particular atmospheric conditions affecting scattering of electromagnetic waves of a given frequency, secondary reflections (weak signals). The "spikes" are produced by the strong reflections off the certain parts of the aircraftof a particular design.

These "spikes" is, presumably, the main target for active cancellation system. By removing these "spikes" from the radar screen the aircraftmay blend in with the background noise, which is normally ignored by the radar operators. It is important to understand, however, that in case of an effective active cancellation system we are dealing with an immensly complicated issue. Something that can be popularly explained with a single wave sinusoidal signal will become progressively more complex in real life situations.

http://www.***************/forums/a...-rafales-active-radar-cancellation-work-1550/

For that to work, they'd have to know both the exact characteristics of the radar return, and the LPI frequency hopping profile of the radar. Its a complex solution that isn't always effective in reality.

Calling Rafale next gen aircraft fighter is as much bullshit as calling Israeli F16 I next generation fighter, It has some cool features, but by no means better than 5 generation fighter plane. Rafale can say whatever they want in order to improve sales, but you're a fool to believe it

 

[randomradio]

the issue still stands irrespective of how many transmitters it carries. I would have thought that the most efficient ARC would be a phased array system, it would need to be rather large and possibly would be someything that could be placed in the dorsal spine of an aircraft to achieve maximum effect. eg the Israeli F-16I's are runoured to have an on board weasel suite in their dorsal. It's also an issue of power generation, which is why I still think that a large on board phased array system would be more efficient.

The Spectra is a digital phased array. The F-22 and F-35 do not have digital transmitters.

The active cancellation system transmitters are placed at major spike zones of the Rafale. The canards and the tail right above the engine. It doesn't need a lot of power, it needs very little power to perform active cancellation. Only equal to the amplitude of the incoming wave. You only need a few T/R modules in order to cancel waves.

A lot of transmitters are desirable, but that's the next upgrade that will come in by 2021. In the next phase, the plan is to remove the current radar and apply it all over the airframe. It will be a wideband conformal array. The French do not have the budget to introduce this tech right now, but they are doing it much faster than before because of the export orders. But that doesn't change the fact that it is a LO/VLO right now.

Calling Rafale next gen aircraft fighter is as much bullshit as calling Israeli F16 I next generation fighter, It has some cool features, but by no means better than 5 generation fighter plane. Rafale can say whatever they want in order to improve sales, but you're a fool to believe it

LM participated in the MMRCA with the a version superior to the Israeli F-16I, it was among the last in technical evaluations, so the F-16 is not a good comparison.

Dassault is not just saying anything they want to, all of this stuff is being verified in trials and exercises.

For that to work, they'd have to know both the exact characteristics of the radar return, and the LPI frequency hopping profile of the radar. Its a complex solution that isn't always effective in reality.

It's already been achieved and works very well.