Russia, China push fifth-generation fighter programmes to meet year-end milestones

[prototype]

pic from china defence forum .it is true j-xx pic probability


qian dragon CG PIC

fan boy art,no fifth generation planes use canard's,this compromise the rcs heavily,generally artist's show such impression because most of them r in love with canards

 

[houshanghai]

http://www.defence.pk/forums/1139316-post2895.html


time prove it.....

 

[spin666]

fan boy art,no fifth generation planes use canard's,this compromise the rcs heavily,generally artist's show such impression because most of them r in love with canards

They maybe daydreaming, but you sound like you have 20years of combat aircraft design experience. Or do you have some sort inside source or just link with that statement?

I do see the russian first design of 5th gen.fighter Mikoyan Project 1.44 go with canards. Not even taking account all those 4.5th gen. fighters,I ready like to see that study "canards" kills the 5th gen.fighter.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/1139316-post2895.html


time prove it.....

Source=no source,worst link ever. As you said,time will prove it or not.

 

[somebozo]

Seems to sit well with recent coziness of Pakistan with Russia and PAF statements that F16-52 will not be the latest aircraft in PAF inventory soon.

 

[S-A-B-E-R->]

fan boy art,no fifth generation planes use canard's,this compromise the rcs heavily,generally artist's show such impression because most of them r in love with canards

i ll disagree .canards may increase RCS when moving but in a static config they ll not ..an areospaceenginear said to me that in a 5th gen raft the use of TVC and rear flaps ll be enough for cruse or long range interception but when it comes up to close in dogfight the canard may be activated because then stealth from radar ll be useless and thus can be compromised for maneuverability...

 

[indushek]

i ll disagree .canards may increase RCS when moving but in a static config they ll not ..an areospaceenginear said to me that in a 5th gen raft the use of TVC and rear flaps ll be enough for cruse or long range interception but when it comes up to close in dogfight the canard may be activated because then stealth from radar ll be useless and thus can be compromised for maneuverability...

But the main advantage of so called fifth gen plane is that, it should not be getting involved in WVR fights like dog fights because it will always be BVR scenario, right??

 

[prototype]

They maybe daydreaming, but you sound like you have 20years of combat aircraft design experience. Or do you have some sort inside source or just link with that statement?

I do see the russian first design of 5th gen.fighter Mikoyan Project 1.44 go with canards. Not even taking account all those 4.5th gen. fighters,I ready like to see that study "canards" kills the 5th gen.fighter.

Project 1.44 was just a technology demonstrator and a scrapped project ,nothing more than that

i ll disagree .canards may increase RCS when moving but in a static config they ll not ..an areospaceenginear said to me that in a 5th gen raft the use of TVC and rear flaps ll be enough for cruse or long range interception but when it comes up to close in dogfight the canard may be activated because then stealth from radar ll be useless and thus can be compromised for maneuverability...

ya agreed with that,but why sacrifice stealth over maneuverability if all u intend is a 5th gen,stealth is the basic feature of 5th gen

 

[alam.saquiba]

@ cancard: it can be removed, don get panic... Let china come with there 5th Gen fighter plane... Then we can analyze...

What bout Plasma stealth technology??? No matter you put how many cancard, Plasma will shelid it from Radars...

Technology can make cancards acceptable for even 5th gen fighter planes....

 

[amalakas]

Project 1.44 was just a technology demonstrator and a scrapped project ,nothing more than that



ya agreed with that,but why sacrifice stealth over maneuverability if all u intend is a 5th gen,stealth is the basic feature of 5th gen

Let us assume (it's called a working hypothesis), that all three parties, i.e. China, Russia & USA have equivalent stealth planes. in other words for stealth, F-35=Pak FA=J-xx (let's not include the F22 in case gambit has a heart attack here).

And let's assume there is a crisis and all 3 planes are thrown into the same airspace. HOW WILL ONE FIND THE OTHER??? It will be like blind, deaf and mute people fighting trying to hit one another with sticks.

So if you happen to see the other guy first, it might be good if you can also outmaneuver the other guy using canards or whatever else.

@ cancard: it can be removed, don get panic... Let china come with there 5th Gen fighter plane... Then we can analyze...

What bout Plasma stealth technology??? No matter you put how many cancard, Plasma will shelid it from Radars...

Technology can make cancards acceptable for even 5th gen fighter planes....

Plasma is too much of an exotic technology.
The russians have solved the problem and are years ahead of anyone else, but even they haven't solved the most major problem of them all.

how do you keep the plasma field around the aircraft at high speeds?
That is the major problem, not the actual tech.
The field can be generated, but any aircraft with any plasma output, will eventually reach a speed (changes with altitude) where the airflow will blow away the field faster than it can be generated.. hence..plasma is not realistic for now...

 

[SomeGuy]

Those canards will add RCS considerably, isn't it?

I wonder how they could make it stealthy by having canards?? Well They could have cranked Arrow Wings configuration to attain Super maneuverability instead of Canards.... Just My 2 cents

fan boy art,no fifth generation planes use canard's,this compromise the rcs heavily,generally artist's show such impression because most of them r in love with canards

Eurofighter has canards, but it still has low RCS.

 

[SomeGuy]

But the main advantage of so called fifth gen plane is that, it should not be getting involved in WVR fights like dog fights because it will always be BVR scenario, right??

That's based on assumption that the enemy doesn't have stealth fighters.

If both sides have stealth, then WVR is more probable since both sides probably won't be able to detect each other effectively until close up.

 

[S-A-B-E-R->]

Let us assume (it's called a working hypothesis), that all three parties, i.e. China, Russia & USA have equivalent stealth planes. in other words for stealth, F-35=Pak FA=J-xx (let's not include the F22 in case gambit has a heart attack here).

And let's assume there is a crisis and all 3 planes are thrown into the same airspace. HOW WILL ONE FIND THE OTHER??? It will be like blind, deaf and mute people fighting trying to hit one another with sticks.

So if you happen to see the other guy first, it might be good if you can also outmaneuver the other guy using canards or whatever else.




Plasma is too much of an exotic technology.
The russians have solved the problem and are years ahead of anyone else, but even they haven't solved the most major problem of them all.

how do you keep the plasma field around the aircraft at high speeds?
That is the major problem, not the actual tech.
The field can be generated, but any aircraft with any plasma output, will eventually reach a speed (changes with altitude) where the airflow will blow away the field faster than it can be generated.. hence..plasma is not realistic for now...

@indushek
amalakas gave an excellent answer there are 1000 of scenarios where maneuverability ll be handy ,once u r out numbered and out of ammo against 4th gen aircrafts there maneuverability will be handy because once BVR limit is crossed and adversaries enter WVR it turns in a gun fight where pilots r trained to fight without radar or IRST .

 

[gambit]

Let us assume (it's called a working hypothesis), that all three parties, i.e. China, Russia & USA have equivalent stealth planes. in other words for stealth, F-35=Pak FA=J-xx (let's not include the F22 in case gambit has a heart attack here).

From laughing myself to death......To think that there would be an F-35 equivalent is amusing enough already.

And let's assume there is a crisis and all 3 planes are thrown into the same airspace. HOW WILL ONE FIND THE OTHER??? It will be like blind, deaf and mute people fighting trying to hit one another with sticks.

Then it fall upon tactics and creativity. One pilot could light himself up to attract attention and call the fight upon himself. Then it will depends on who has the superior airmanship.

Plasma is too much of an exotic technology.
The russians have solved the problem and are years ahead of anyone else, but even they haven't solved the most major problem of them all.

how do you keep the plasma field around the aircraft at high speeds?
That is the major problem, not the actual tech.
The field can be generated, but any aircraft with any plasma output, will eventually reach a speed (changes with altitude) where the airflow will blow away the field faster than it can be generated.. hence..plasma is not realistic for now...

People...Please stop it with this 'plasma field' nonsense. It is a plasma antenna => http://www.defence.pk/forums/1103970-post29.html

 

[S-A-B-E-R->]

From laughing myself to death......To think that there would be an F-35 equivalent is amusing enough already.


Then it fall upon tactics and creativity. One pilot could light himself up to attract attention and call the fight upon himself. Then it will depends on who has the superior airmanship.


People...Please stop it with this 'plasma field' nonsense. It is a plasma antenna => http://www.defence.pk/forums/1103970-post29.html

yah its some what similar to plasma torch .with high voltage current creates a spray of plasma over the aircraft body to absorb radar waves

 

[gambit]

i ll disagree .canards may increase RCS when moving but in a static config they ll not ..an areospaceenginear said to me that in a 5th gen raft the use of TVC and rear flaps ll be enough for cruse or long range interception but when it comes up to close in dogfight the canard may be activated because then stealth from radar ll be useless and thus can be compromised for maneuverability...

Canards are usually ACTIVE flight controls elements. Just about all fighters today are negative stability designs, meaning the aircraft is inherently unstable, so much that without computers, no pilot can control it, even in level flight. Do not confuse aerodynamics with stability. A brick is stable but not very aerodynamics. An F-16 is quite the opposite. As an active flight control surface, the canard will be in constant motion to maintain stability throughout all maneuvers. Those motions are usually too small for the human eye but not for radar.

Can canards increase RCS? Yes. But will they on a body? Depends.

A canard is a body and is finite. As an EM wave traverses to the end of a finite body, there is the 'edge diffraction' effect that could send some of that EM signal back to the seeking radar. The reason the B-2, the F-117, F-22, and F-35 has those specific wing angles is to reduce the edge diffraction effect. But the main problem with a canard is its small size. The longer an EM wave traverse over a body, the more energy it loses.

Further...

The diffracted EM signals from the canard will collide with the larger wing behind it, producing EM impact on the wing that has much greater randomness than what could be anticipated in a design without canards. So is it possible for a canard design that will NOT produce this adverse effect on the wing and will NOT increase RCS? Yes. But for now, more likely the designer will consult with Adobe...

---------- Post added at 12:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:09 PM ----------

yah its some what similar to plasma torch .with high voltage current creates a spray of plasma over the aircraft body to absorb radar waves

Please read my post carefully.