Russia Cancels First Japanese Tourist Trip to Disputed Kuril Islands

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

Technically speaking, no declaration of war was made between Republic of China and Japan either. But they signed a peace treaty. Putin has also on many occassions said that a peace treaty could be signed under certain conditions. So there is meaning in having a peace treaty signed between Russia and Japan.

Peace treaty only if Japan drops claim on Karafuto prefecture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karafuto_Prefecture

 

[Suika]

Peace treaty only if Japan drops claim on Karafuto prefecture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karafuto_Prefecture

I'm pretty sure only 2 or 4 of the islands is enough. If Japan is pushing for Karafuto, then Japan has got some guts.

I'm certain that its just for the bottom 2 or 4 islands though. Not sure why you think Japan is claiming Karafuto as well.

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

I'm pretty sure only 2 or 4 of the islands is enough. If Japan is pushing for Karafuto, then Japan has got some guts.

I'm certain that its just for the bottom 2 or 4 islands though. Not sure why you think Japan is claiming Karafuto as well.

In that case Habomai and Shikotan is at most Putin will give for peace treaty.

 

[Suika]

In that case Habomai and Shikotan is at most Putin will give for peace treaty.

Should be good enough.

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

Should be good enough.

I think not since USSR declared war, not Russia. Flag is different. So Russia is not at war with Japan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Russia

 

[Suika]

I think not since USSR declared war, not Russia. Flag is different. So Russia is not at war with Japan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Russia

Heh

Then give Crimea back to Ukraine.

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

Heh

Then give Crimea back to Ukraine.

I agree.

 

[vostok]

US stopped its offensive because of announcement of surrender by the Japanese emperor. The SU made an attack afterwards. Had the SU not attacked afterwards, the signing might have happened a weak earlier. Formalities and such need to be prepared first. Attacking after announcement if surrender is a dirty shot and so the the dispute remains. Japan never signed an end of war treaty with Russia because of that.

Return the bottom 2 or 4 islands, then a peace treaty between Japan and Russia can be signed. Japan has such peace treaty with the US and Republic of China already. Still waiting on the SU/Russia.

It does not matter what USA did. Soviet troops attacked Japan at 9th August. They had their objectives. And they achieved those objectives no matter what orders Japanese troops had. Because for our troops only our commander's orders matter. Only after Japanese capitulation Soviet troops stopped active phase.
It seems to me - you do not understand. From Russian point of view there is no dispute. Russia has full sovereignty over all it lands. No talks about giving Japan even 1 uninhabitant rock in the middle of the ocean. There is only talks about some joint projects with Japanese business - but no talks about Russian lands.
If Japan will understand that it has zero chances ever get even 1 inch of Russian land - there can be healthy relations between Russia and Japan.

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

The Soviet Union invaded those islands after Japan had announced its surrender on August 15th. The Soviet Union attacked the islands on August 18th. The Japanese defenders were caught completely by surprise having thought the war had ended, but they fought hard and gave the Soviets a rough beating before losing the battle by August 23rd. Because of that attack, Japan never agreed to a peace treaty with the Soviet Union because of illegal attack. If the Soviet Union wanted those islands, they should have attacked sooner. That is why Japan maintains the claim on them. If the Soviet Union had not attacked after the Japanese surrender, then there would be no island dispute between Japan and Russia today.

A verbal announcement means nothing. Often an army will make a fake announcement to gain advantage over enemy. Only a signature on a piece of paper counts. That's why Western countries consider WW2 ended in September when Emperor signed the paper and not in August when Emperor made a verbal announcement.

 

[Suika]

A verbal announcement means nothing. Often an army will make a fake announcement to gain advantage over enemy. Only a signature on a piece of paper counts. That's why Western countries consider WW2 ended in September when Emperor signed the paper and not in August when Emperor made a verbal announcement.

Japan was on the defensive. US bombing had ceased. Japan just had been nuked twice. The Japanese EMPEROR Hirohito himself delivered the surrender by radio waves to all Japanese radio sets. There's no faking that. There was no need for an offensive launched on August 18th at the northern islands. It was a greedy island invasion that caught the Japanese by surprise and got more people killed for no reason other than just greedy Stalin land grab after enemy leadership announced surrender. That is why the island dispute remains today and why no peace treaty has been signed yet.

It does not matter what USA did. Soviet troops attacked Japan at 9th August. They had their objectives. And they achieved those objectives no matter what orders Japanese troops had. Because for our troops only our commander's orders matter. Only after Japanese capitulation Soviet troops stopped active phase.
It seems to me - you do not understand. From Russian point of view there is no dispute. Russia has full sovereignty over all it lands. No talks about giving Japan even 1 uninhabitant rock in the middle of the ocean. There is only talks about some joint projects with Japanese business - but no talks about Russian lands.
If Japan will understand that it has zero chances ever get even 1 inch of Russian land - there can be healthy relations between Russia and Japan.

The island dispute will remain indefinately then.

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

he Japanese EMPEROR Hirohito himself delivered the surrender by radio waves to all Japanese radio sets. There's no faking that.

Who knows if the Emperor was lying or not? Only his signature on the surrender paper counts. What he says on his mouth is worthless as far as Western 0 or 1 logic goes.

That is why the island dispute remains today and why no peace treaty has been signed yet.

The island will remain Russian land until the day the ocean swallows it again.

The island dispute will remain indefinately then.

Exactly.

 

[Zsari]

The Soviet Union invaded those islands after Japan had announced its surrender on August 15th. The Soviet Union attacked the islands on August 18th. The Japanese defenders were caught completely by surprise having thought the war had ended, but they fought hard and gave the Soviets a rough beating before losing the battle by August 23rd. Because of that attack, Japan never agreed to a peace treaty with the Soviet Union because of illegal attack. If the Soviet Union wanted those islands, they should have attacked sooner. That is why Japan maintains the claim on them. If the Soviet Union had not attacked after the Japanese surrender, then there would be no island dispute between Japan and Russia today.

It matters not when the islands were invaded, as the instrument of surrender signed by Japan clearly stipulated "Japanese Government and their successors to carry out the provisions of the Potsdam Declaration in good faith, and to issue whatever orders and take whatever actions may be required by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers or by any other designated representative of the Allied Powers for the purpose of giving effect to that Declaration."
And the Potsdam Declaration had already laid out the terms "Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the islands of Honshu, Hokkaido, Kyushu, Shikoku, and such minor islands as we determine."

All the territorial demands made by Japan against its neighbors therefore are without merit.

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

It matters not when the islands were invaded, as the instrument of surrender signed by Japan clearly stipulated "Japanese Government and their successors to carry out the provisions of the Potsdam Declaration in good faith, and to issue whatever orders and take whatever actions may be required by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers or by any other designated representative of the Allied Powers for the purpose of giving effect to that Declaration."
And the Potsdam Declaration had already laid out the terms "Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the islands of Honshu, Hokkaido, Kyushu, Shikoku, and such minor islands as we determine."

All the territorial demands made by Japan against its neighbors therefore are without merit.

Japan is crazy just like Argentina which claims Falklands islands is Argentina land.

 

[Suika]

Who knows if the Emperor was lying or not? Only his signature on the surrender paper counts. What he says on his mouth is worthless as far as Western 0 or 1 logic goes.



The island will remain Russian land until the day the ocean swallows it again.



Exactly.

Western logic as you phrase it stopped bombing after the emperor's announcement. Who knlws if the emperor was lying? Lol, stop trying now please...

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

Western logic as you phrase it stopped bombing after the emperor's announcement. Who knlws if the emperor was lying? Lol, stop trying now please...

White Man logic is 0 or 1. There is no gray space. Japanese are not White Man. Japanese do not understand Russian claim to Kurils. Emperor's words mean nothing to Russians. Only Emperor's signature on the paper means end of war. Every country recognizes Kurils as Russia land except Japan. Japan claims Kurils not because Russia took it after Emperor blabbered something from his mouth, but because Japan considers it Japan land the way Argentina considers Falklands Argentina land.