Russia Admits China Illegally Copied Its Fighter

[MastanKhan]

Adding these terms will increase the overall price of any deal. You get what you pay for, and here you are getting quite a lot of solidity in the deal. Some of the points above could be deal-breakers for the companies as certain delays and glitches are unforeseeable in business and engineering (for example, "if no delivery by a certain date, the manufacturer would pay a penalty"). Also, in case of friendly nations like China, the "always sign the contract with the manufacturer" point will most definitely cost more, as the government will be able provide 'friendship prices' and other flexibility if directly involved in the deal. But I agree that some of the points you mentioned should definitely be demanded, regardless of their cost (for example, "no delivery no money").

Hi PAFace,

Your post is assumptous---this is how major purchases are made---specially keeping in view the relationship of pakistan and america. It is a standard practise in the U S to penalize the contractor if any project that is not completed in time----ok---on the other hand they may have a clause giving them a reward if the job is done ahead of time.

This is the american way of contract. Simple and brutal---the contractor has to come up with guarantees. In case of the pakistani procurement of CN 235 airplanes---there was a delay in the delivery so some planes---they obviuosly were fined as per the contractual clause.

The issue is not with china---the issue being discussed was the u s.

Boeing pays penalties for not delivering passenger planes in time---so does the airbus consortium.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi hj78,

Well that is the face and shape of the heavy air dominance fighter that PAF can get in the near future---ultimately PAF wil have to buy some when realization hits home.

 

[PAFAce]

Your post is assumptous---this is how major purchases are made---specially keeping in view the relationship of pakistan and america. It is a standard practise in the U S to penalize the contractor if any project that is not completed in time----ok---on the other hand they may have a clause giving them a reward if the job is done ahead of time.

The issue is not with china---the issue being discussed was the u s.

Boeing pays penalties for not delivering passenger planes in time---so does the airbus consortium.

You are correct once again, but my argument was simply that adding these clauses to a deal will increase its price to the customer, i.e., Pakistan. Like I said, you get what you pay for, and if you want insurance policies built into the deal, then you must pay for them. And I simply mentioned China as a comparison. I agree with you 100% that our deals with the US should be different from those with China.

Also, as is the case with Airbus A380, a company will go out of its way to facilitate a contract if the customer is what they call a "big fish". Same is true for the Indian MRCA deal. Since the order (and therefore, the money) is huge, the companies are bending over backwards to make sure their design is chosen (including ToT, separate projects, re-investment of finances in India etc). For a handful of F-16s, it would be foolish to expect the same kind of treatment from Lockheed. Therefore, the magnitude of the deal also affects the demands one can make as a customer. This, too, may hamper our ability to demand all those things you mentioned.

 

[hj786]

no idea about PAFs priorities but THAT F****G ENORMOUS TARGET (AIRCRAFT) WILL BE FLYING IN NUMBERS GREATER THAN 500 IN CHINESE SKIES

Will 500 of them be flying in Pakistani skies? The Chinese can afford to lose them, they have the funds to manufacture, maintain, upgrade hundreds of them and replace them if/when they are lost in combat - I doubt very much that PAF can do the same. JF-17 is a different story.

Well that is the face and shape of the heavy air dominance fighter that PAF can get in the near future---ultimately PAF wil have to buy some when realization hits home.

In the future, Pakistan might be in the condition to afford such purchases. Until then, I do not see why J-11's role cannot be filled by upgraded J-10, JF, aerial refuellers, AWACS and advanced missiles.

Something to read for you guys who reckon J-11 is "far better" than J-10:

The first J-10/FC-20 will not arrive until late 2009 or early 2010.
__________________________________________________________________________
*According to the unnamed defense official in Beijing, when he arrived to take up his new post he had read on the internet about some new fighter that the Chinese had developed. When he inquired from his Chinese defense contacts about this “mystery” aircraft the image of Su-27 was shown to him but he went back to the internet and looked up the image of J-10. He printed the image and next day showed it to the same Chinese defense official. The Chinese official’s face turned yellow as if he saw an angel of death. After waiting for seven days the same Chinese official came to the unnamed official drove him to an airport took him to a hanger showed him J-10. The unnamed defense official dispatches all J-10 related documents and data to Islamabad. In those days PAF was looking to buy Typhoon, Rafale, or Su-27. This new aircraft was a dream come true and in the words of unnamed official “... and his buddies jumped out of their chairs reading about J-10”. After initial contact with PLAAF , a crack team of pilots and engineers were send to China to evaluate J-10 . Since, there was no dual-seater J-10 available the Chinese were absolutely against a solo PAF pilot test flying J-10. Two PAF pilots were given extensive briefing on flying characteristics of J-10 but the Chinese were reluctant for a solo test flight. The whole trip was in quagmire and the PAF team was almost packing up heading for home when the unnamed defense official contacted same old “yellow face angel” for help. After three days he called one early morning and informed unnamed defense official to have his team ready. He drove the PAF in a bus to same airport and had a J-10 ready for 50 minutes of solo test flight by a PAF pilot. Nonetheless, J-10 performed exceptionally well and the team went back with very high expectation for this newly found aircraft. During the course of their down time in China, three officers including the unnamed defense official came up with the prefixes JF-17 and FC-20. Talks to buy FC-20 started in 2000 but Chinese said they want to prove to themselves if this aircraft works or not. PAF officials conveyed to PLAAF that this aircraft can be as good as Rafale or Typhoon. There are several modifications which are being made on FC-20 which are PAF specific. According to PAF officials FC-20 will be as good as Rafale and Typhoon.

Soon after September 11, 2001, EADS had been pushing very hard for PAF to buy Typhoon fighter aircraft. After it was announced in April of 2006 about the pending purchase of 36 FC-20 EADS backed off and LM (USA) started to worry that PAF will only buy 12 Block 52. This lead LM to push the people in important places in Washington DC to give assurances that F-16 deal will go through under all circumstances.
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I wrote the above in 2007
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H Khan

http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showpost.php?p=144918&postcount=349

Thanks to Mark Sien for finding this and posting it at PDF recently.

I'm not saying J-10A is superior to J-11B, or that J-10B will be just as good as even the most basic versions of Rafale/Typhoon when it is finished. What I am saying is, Pakistan should concentrate on upgrading JF-17, J-10 and R&D in AAM, SAM and other missile tech. In my opinion these, as well as a strong economy and civilian/military infrastructure, are what will deter enemies and win wars for Pakistan, not J-11.

 

[Arsalan]

are we looking for the J11z???

even if not the INTEL on the system may prove to be useful to tackle the Indias Russian Su-27!

What o you people think?

 

[zombie:-)]

are we looking for the J11z???

even if not the INTEL on the system may prove to be useful to tackle the Indias Russian Su-27!

What o you people think?

as hj786 you guys need number fillers which are cheap and have decent tech too j-11 will be a big maintainace nightmare if u can gt it in your AF

 

[Arsalan]

as hj786 you guys need number fillers which are cheap and have decent tech too j-11 will be a big maintainace nightmare if u can gt it in your AF

hmmm, very true!!

most of the russian machines have proved to be maintainance costly! the Su27 is no diference, as are the Mig 29 and the Su30!!

it will not be wise for PAF to induct this palne because we are not in a position to buy large number of them and few plane will also prove to be costly and will be having limited flying hours as the number of sorties an Su27 can make is low as it need heavy maintainance!!

so at the moment the J11z seems to be out of scean for PAF

 

[zombie:-)]

hmmm, very true!!

most of the russian machines have proved to be maintainance costly! the Su27 is no diference, as are the Mig 29 and the Su30!!

it will not be wise for PAF to induct this palne because we are not in a position to buy large number of them and few plane will also prove to be costly and will be having limited flying hours as the number of sorties an Su27 can make is low as it need heavy maintainance!!

so at the moment the J11z seems to be out of scean for PAF

but maintenance depends on size and complexity as well
su-27 family is huge you have to operate it in large numbers so that the maintenance comes down but if you are having smaller and less complex fighters you can no doubt field it in large numbers and hence the cost comes down and it wont be too complex either pity Algeria Vietnam Venezuela indonesia

 

[Arsalan]

but maintenance depends on size and complexity as well
su-27 family is huge you have to operate it in large numbers so that the maintenance comes down but if you are having smaller and less complex fighters you can no doubt field it in large numbers and hence the cost comes down and it wont be too complex either pity Algeria Vietnam Venezuela indonesia

yes thats what i said!

we wont be getting them in huge quantity and thus it will be more n more trouble causing for us, both in terms of maintainance cost and limited flying hours

 

[PAFAce]

If the F-16 B52 deal has really gone south, I think I might have to change my stance on the J-11B deal. It might just be time for Pakistan to end its membership of the "Lightweight Fighter Mafia" and join the "Big Guns Club".

So the big question this brings up is: is it possible to upgrade the J-11B to Su-30MKI levels? What does the Su-30MKI have that the J-11B lacks (except for TVC and other obvious stuff)? Surely, since they have both been derived from the same basic jet, matching the two should not be a problem. (Please avoid flames)

 

[zombie:-)]

If the F-16 B52 deal has really gone south, I think I might have to change my stance on the J-11B deal. It might just be time for Pakistan to end its membership of the "Lightweight Fighter Mafia" and join the "Big Guns Club".

So the big question this brings up is: is it possible to upgrade the J-11B to Su-30MKI levels? What does the Su-30MKI have that the J-11B lacks (except for TVC and other obvious stuff)? Surely, since they have both been derived from the same basic jet, matching the two should not be a problem. (Please avoid flames)

matching them would not be a problem if you get them from russians but the same from chinese .....much needs to be brought into light if you have to even consider it buying from them

 

[PAFAce]

matching them would not be a problem if you get them from russians but the same from chinese .....much needs to be brought into light if you have to even consider it buying from them

I realize that. As a matter of fact, I have been one of the most outspoken members of this forum against the purchase of J-11s thus far.

I was just wondering whether, if we are somehow able to get a deal for the J-11s done, will it be possible to upgrade the jet to be comparable with the Su-30MKI levels. If this is the case, then maybe a squadron of these upgraded J-11s is not such a bad idea afterall (despite the political, economic and logistical drawbacks/hinderances).

 

[zombie:-)]

I realize that. As a matter of fact, I have been one of the most outspoken members of this forum against the purchase of J-11s thus far.

I was just wondering whether, if we are somehow able to get a deal for the J-11s done, will it be possible to upgrade the jet to be comparable with the Su-30MKI levels. If this is the case, then maybe a squadron of these upgraded J-11s is not such a bad idea afterall (despite the political, economic and logistical drawbacks/hinderances).

so are you ready to cut a deal wit israelis....
coz mki has israeli avionics better would be lobby russia for a bunch of su-35s or better still start having better international relations with other countries...

 

[Zob]

well see J-11B's are still not an option my guess is PAF will wait for india to choose the MRCA and then PAF will choose from all those who didn't get the contract and are licking there wounds....

and as for the sarcasim about the MKI...my friend why are u buying 126 other fighters.....and as for MKI well pakistan even its wildest dreams never ocnsidered buying SU-30 be it MKK or MKI we are not intrested....and as for the fact that have good relations with countries sorry kiddo maybe you dunno we have an amazing relationship mashallah with turkey and china....i think that is sufficent... because these countries are true friends....unlike india's friends who r friends only cuz india got the money...and if u come down to it...i guess it took u longer to get ur nuclear deal than it took the UAE....because i guess they got more money... $$$$$ control the world my boy....

 

[zombie:-)]

well see J-11B's are still not an option my guess is PAF will wait for india to choose the MRCA and then PAF will choose from all those who didn't get the contract and are licking there wounds....

and as for the sarcasim about the MKI...my friend why are u buying 126 other fighters.....and as for MKI well pakistan even its wildest dreams never ocnsidered buying SU-30 be it MKK or MKI we are not intrested....and as for the fact that have good relations with countries sorry kiddo maybe you dunno we have an amazing relationship mashallah with turkey and china....i think that is sufficent... because these countries are true friends....unlike india's friends who r friends only cuz india got the money...and if u come down to it...i guess it took u longer to get ur nuclear deal than it took the UAE....because i guess they got more money... $$$$$ control the world my boy....

i was replying to the post in the quotes i dont care if you go for sukhois or not.

mashallah we have got russia the same way you got china think abt it

UAE HAS OIL WHICH IS= $$$$ THEY ARE NOT HARD EARNED ONES THEY LAY CLAIM TO IT BECAUSE IT IS IN THEIR LAND

and about nuclear deal you guys even didnt get one so stop it

dont bring the NDEAL here if you have got a valid point put it across DONT TROLL