Rising India or Falling India

[Bushroda]

First of all, this article is not published in any daily. And secondly this is not a standard of geniune or non-geniune. And you know that. But you dis-agree with the contents or unable to defend against it. So trying to underscore the article and its writer.

Pardon me if I mistook the first post to be an article although the presentation does make it seem like one. My objection was towards the terminology especially Hindu lenders which clearly suggests the bias and hatred of the author. This itself raises a question mark over the abstract of the post. As far as agreeing or disagreeing over the content is concerned I did not raise that point at all. I questioned the economic acumen of the author. Mentioning few statistics here and there doesn't make any sense. Post the relevant statistics from the past as well and then question if India is rising or falling as you have aptly titled the thread.

What joy has came in their way is not pointed out by you.

Read my post again. I have mentioned about the educated class in India who have driven the service industry. If you haven't just woken up from your 20 years of hibernation then you would've heard of India's burgeoning IT industry which has changed lives of millions.

Government treasures are full with dollars and hundreds of billions of others are on their way, but the 77% population is living below poverty line.

I am not sure what you consider poverty line. If you take $2(PPP) as poverty line then equal number of Pakistanis are in poverty as well. So, do you believe that Pakistan hasn't prospered at all in last few years? 16 years is too small a time in changing a country's fortune and that too of the size of India. Even after 30 years of economic boom China is still a developing country. So, why do you expect India to be transformed into a garden of Eden?

To pop up with a little better face in the world community, Indian government had altered its standard of poverty and excluded a significant portion of its population from the poverty ratio.

How?????? provide a link please.

Hundreds of thousands of people commiting suicide.

Japan has one of the world's highest suicide ratio per capita. So are you pointing out that Japan hasn't progressed at all? India accounts for one-sixth of humanity. The numbers are bound to be high.

Illegal Indian immigerants, only in Pakistan are far more than you can even imagine and then you are telling us that the buttons are missing from someone else's shirt? Bravo.

lol!!!!!! Next I am waiting to hear americans sneaking into Mexico in search of jobs..

 

[PakistanFront]

Indian city pays residents to use toilet

The remote town of Musiri in the Tamil Nadu state has hit upon a unique idea to teach its residents proper hygiene: pay them money each time they use the toilet.

Users can make up to $0.14 a month to relieve themselves in a specially constructed toilet. Not a princely sum, but it's extra cash flow that low-income residents can make just for answering nature's call.

The government-backed program serves two purpose: It encourages people to discard age-old practices of urinating and defecating in the open, leading to diseases. And the waste product goes into research to test their effectiveness as fertilizers.

"We're motivating people to know the value of their urine," said Marathi Subburaman, who came up with the novel idea. "The urine that is collected goes into fields for paddy crops, and of course the feces becomes good compost in a matter of months."

Aid groups estimate that more than 330 million people in India do not have access to proper sanitation facilities. And in the case of Musiri, many residents relieve themselves on river banks, leading to infectious diseases such as diarrhea.

And while both governmental and non-governmental agencies have taken on projects to build toilets in rural areas, they also have had to undertake campaigns to encourage people to use them.

The Musiri plan seems to be working, Subburaman said. About 150 residents use the eco-sanitation toilet daily. It has special chambers that collect the fecal matter that researchers than use as fertilizer.

It's a win-win scenario, said Subburaman.

His non-profit Society for Community Organisation and People's Education (SCOPE) has teamed up with Tamil Nadu Agricultural University and are studying how much urine is needed to fertilize a field.

"Next year, we can install urine banks so we can sell the urine to farmers," he said.

For now, residents queue up twice a day. They are given cards where each trip is marked off. At the end of the month, residents can cash out the cards, making up to $0.14.

Subburaman approached the amount by calculating that an average person will need to relieve himself two times for each of the 30 days and make 10 paisas per visit.

"If they ask to go three, four times a day, then something's wrong," he said. "We ask them to go to a doctor."

 

[Vinod2070]

Flintlock said:

Yeah, India should ditch capitalism and become a..what..communist? Islamic? what? Please enlighten us.

And yeah, we hate Pakistanis. Happy?

Oh, I am sorry if I heart you. But I never intended to do that.

And secondly, if you adopt Islam as your system. That would be the best choice for your people. Only the Islamic system can rescue you from so much troubles.

But I am sure that you are not going to do that. So what other choices are availble to you. Do your Hinduism does not give any economical system to follow? And if at last, capitalism is your final choice then you need to make certain changes into it. I can tell you few, but I am sure that you will again mind it.

PF, I can see your concern for India and am really touched.

I am sure that Pakistan also has many problems as it is behind India on most fronts including the HDI. So there is a lot of scope for you to offer your expertise and make things better right there. And once you have established your credibility by doing rather than just preaching, India will be more receptive to your suggestions.

How about first getting Pakistan into the top 100 in HDI for a start?

Excellent suggestion for India to adopt the Islamic system. Pakistan is already 96 % Muslim! Does it have an Islamic system? If yes, did it help you to avoid all troubles? If not, why not implement it first in Pakistan and show us the results!

Why are you embracing capitalism in Pakistan? Many Pakistanis claim that South Korea copied Pakistan's economic model in the 1960s. Was that the capitalist or the Islamic model?

 

[Vinod2070]

Now, you are acting little positively.

And I hope you start doing that from now.

However, the primary purpose of the post # 1 is not compare India with any country including Pakistan. But to point out the hard fact that despite all its exports and heavy earnings, including high growth rate, Indians are become poorer and poorer everyday. So we need to discuss and point out the reasonss.

And where is that coming from. Not out of thin air but because of the industriousness of ordinary Indians.

Indians are not becoming poorer. Their income is increasing every year. I see that all around me. Though obviously a lot remains to be done. Same as in your country.

someone, had correctly but un-intentionally pointed out the real problem with India and that is capitalism. Tell me with honesty, All heavy incomes by these enterpreneurs are goiong to european countries. They are buying steel mils in 40 billion dollars in europe. In 40 billion dollars, he would be able to set up atleast 4 steel mills in India. Thus 40000 indians obtain jobs in only those 4 steel mills. Tell me if I am wrong? But you Indians hate Pakistan and Pakistani so much that if we say something for your own betterness, you always regard it propaganda. Isn't it?

Yes, you are wrong. If an NRI Indian buys a steel mill, it is not Indian money going abroad. Nor when Tata buys Chorus or Jaguar and Land-Rover or Tetley. Most of these are leveraged buy-outs (Meaning financed by the future earnings of the companies being bought) and are financed by international capital. What Indian companies are providing is supposedly superior management and strategy.

Investments both inwards and outwards is a good thing for the country. Otherwise there would be no outwards investment by any country!

And fyi, India is building sufficient steel capacity for its needs. There are many large steel plants in the pipeline which are capable of meeting Indian needs even leaving a surplus for export.

 

[Malang]

Tomatos in Pakistan are used to sell at more than 100 Rs. per kilo. Do you know the highest price of this vegetable only in India?

Tomatoes are priced at 13.5 Rs per kilo in More an a/c supermarket(run by Birlas).. a month back they were priced at 4.5 Rs per kilo... the reason for price is rains..

1 Indian Rs = 1.7 Pakistan Rs

 

[Goodperson]

Indian city pays residents to use toilet

The remote town of Musiri in the Tamil Nadu state has hit upon a unique idea to teach its residents proper hygiene: pay them money each time they use the toilet.

Users can make up to $0.14 a month to relieve themselves in a specially constructed toilet. Not a princely sum, but it's extra cash flow that low-income residents can make just for answering nature's call.

The government-backed program serves two purpose: It encourages people to discard age-old practices of urinating and defecating in the open, leading to diseases. And the waste product goes into research to test their effectiveness as fertilizers.

"We're motivating people to know the value of their urine," said Marathi Subburaman, who came up with the novel idea. "The urine that is collected goes into fields for paddy crops, and of course the feces becomes good compost in a matter of months."

Aid groups estimate that more than 330 million people in India do not have access to proper sanitation facilities. And in the case of Musiri, many residents relieve themselves on river banks, leading to infectious diseases such as diarrhea.

And while both governmental and non-governmental agencies have taken on projects to build toilets in rural areas, they also have had to undertake campaigns to encourage people to use them.

The Musiri plan seems to be working, Subburaman said. About 150 residents use the eco-sanitation toilet daily. It has special chambers that collect the fecal matter that researchers than use as fertilizer.

It's a win-win scenario, said Subburaman.

His non-profit Society for Community Organisation and People's Education (SCOPE) has teamed up with Tamil Nadu Agricultural University and are studying how much urine is needed to fertilize a field.

"Next year, we can install urine banks so we can sell the urine to farmers," he said.

For now, residents queue up twice a day. They are given cards where each trip is marked off. At the end of the month, residents can cash out the cards, making up to $0.14.

Subburaman approached the amount by calculating that an average person will need to relieve himself two times for each of the 30 days and make 10 paisas per visit.

"If they ask to go three, four times a day, then something's wrong," he said. "We ask them to go to a doctor."

One should understand difference between city and small town, Very few know about the town you are mentioning and that also due to it recently in news. But whats wrong with that news ?

Also please use "Quote" button on the bottom right of the user's post before quoting someone other wise its extra work and adds to some confusion.

It would be great if you also provide links if you are referring to any source like news etc.

 

[Logic note]

Failure is lack of Progress so India is rising faster then ever before . Problems existed and we are solving them .
So if someone finds pleasure in others problems then there must be something wrong with his thinking process ..
No wonder , People growing with a biased educational curricullam cant be cured .

 

[muse]

India rising or falling? most defintely Rising - India is a vast country, with huge problems and huge success - but lets look from a slightly different persepective:

FARANGI IN TOWN: Lines in the dust
Ella Rolfe



I spent last week doing something few Pakistanis have a chance to do. I spent it in India.

The fact that nationals of the two countries find visiting each other such an intractable task, of course, reflects sixty years of mistrust, animosity and occasional war. No point rehearsing that again. Neither is it made easy for foreigners to cross the line: it is one of life’s irritating little ironies that one can live half an hour’s drive from the border, yet be required to sit on a bus for five hours north to get the correct stamps and stickers in one’s passport before venturing that small way east.

Finally crossing as a foreigner at Wagah, however, is an experience worth meditating on. The expected multiple checks and layers of bureaucracy (presumably the five men on each side who separately checked and signed my documents all have to feed their families somehow) are not actually as bad on the Pakistani side as on the Indian; I came away with a feeling that perhaps Pakistan has been through enough interesting governmental experiments since 1947 to make it forget the finer points of British bureaucracy.

India, on the other hand, has spent the last sixty years honing and sharpening slavish bureaucracy to a fine, fine art. Japanese tea ceremonies have nothing on the man behind the table at the start of the long, hot, rucksack-laden walk to Pakistan. Nor on his colleagues about 200m, 220m, 400m and 700m later.

On my way out of Pakistan, I was too excited about my upcoming holiday to note the differences which crept in around me as I passed those highly decorated double gates. On the way back in, however, my more mellow brain allowed me to view Pakistan with an outsider’s eyes for the first time in five months.

Lines in the sand are notorious for their arbitrary nature — the ‘impartial’ (i.e. unqualified and ignorant) aristocrat employed to fix the Indo-Pak border in 1947 was allegedly so afraid of the consequences of his actions that he discarded all his maps, hired a car with blacked out windows, and told the driver simply to drive north by whatever route he chose — and crossing land borders tends to be an anticlimactic rather than a geographically humbling experience. The Uganda/Tanzania border to the west of Lake Victoria is quite good: one goes through more security trying to get into most Sub-continental railway stations. But this particular line carries the weight of too much history (beginning with the destruction of western self-confidence, it can never be just history) to fade imperceptibly from one country to another. There are visible, immediate differences.

The colour of the clothing. India-side are hundreds of porters, truck drivers, and other hangers-around dressed in bright colours, many sporting the eye-watering orange of traditional Sikh turbans. Women in Pakistan, of course, have access to just as fantastic a kaleidoscope of colours as their sisters in India, and make full use of them; but there are few women on either side, this being a crossing point mostly for trade and industrial traffic at half past ten on a Tuesday morning. Thus the orange-wrapped drivers’ Pakistani counterparts are all clad in far more sober beige, grey or brown shalwar kameez, the only thing a man can get away with in Pakistan.

Also, there are fewer of them: while the Indian side bustled with as much vigour as the rest of the country on the mornings of both my crossings, the Pakistani side seemed sleepy and deserted, as if not quite awake. The sparkling new ‘terminal’, clearly designed to impress incomers and unarguably superior to the Indian facilities, felt like it had not had its plastic wrapping taken off yet.

Having cleared the final barriers on my way back in, I had to ask at the tea stall to find a taxi; whereupon the proprietor vaulted the counter, disappeared and returned with a slightly unreasonable asking price and his own vehicle, one of the most battered I have ever seen. I am sure not every visitor to Pakistan is greeted by a taxi whose boot has to be cleared of thick cobwebs before it can accommodate their luggage; but I did feel that this only confirmed my impressions.

Indeed, the colour of the whole landscape was different. The avenue of trees planted by some bright spark along the road on the Indian side seems to echo a more general greenness that contrasts starkly with the barren, brown and wide open Pakistani landscape. Can sixty-odd years of differing policies and events really turn a line on a map into a visible rupture? Can governmental instability really be writ on the land in so tangible a way?

Driving into Pakistan, the dust started to billow and the fields were a less vivid shade of green. Houses seemed to lack architecture, existing simply as blocks of jutting and irregular blocks, whereas Indian village houses looked like they had been designed. Damage and disrepair were everywhere present. Pondering environmental degradation and mentally connecting it to decades of dodgy government, I even began to wonder if the temperature in Lahore weren’t slightly higher and the climate more oppressive than in Amritsar.

As I write it has been a slightly cooler day on the Indian side, a matter of a couple of degrees; I have no way to prove that a certain economic and political lag in Pakistan has resulted in dustier soil and higher temperatures in its part of leafy Punjab, but it’s a possibility.

In fact, I cannot substantiate any of the above. However, as a raw foreigner once again, albeit briefly before the familiar streets of my part of Lahore dulled my senses to the new, perhaps my random observations do count for something. Coming back to my adopted city, I can see afresh how badly its hinterlands need a government which will take care of them.

The writer is a staff member at The Friday Times

 

[PakistanFront]

vinod2070

PF, I can see your concern for India and am really touched.

I am sure that Pakistan also has many problems as it is behind India on most fronts including the HDI. So there is a lot of scope for you to offer your expertise and make things better right there. And once you have established your credibility by doing rather than just preaching, India will be more receptive to your suggestions.

How about first getting Pakistan into the top 100 in HDI for a start?

Excellent suggestion for India to adopt the Islamic system. Pakistan is already 96 % Muslim! Does it have an Islamic system? If yes, did it help you to avoid all troubles? If not, why not implement it first in Pakistan and show us the results!

Why are you embracing capitalism in Pakistan? Many Pakistanis claim that South Korea copied Pakistan's economic model in the 1960s. Was that the capitalist or the Islamic model?

Vinod, you are doing the same what flintoff tried to do. I do not think that I need to mention again and again that the post # 1 was not a comparison. However...

First of all, yes im concerned about the living conditions of the common indians. They will loose job, they will become easy targets for the VHPs and RSSs. Those terrorist Indian Hindu Criminal Organisation will recruite them and use them for their criminal activities.

Vinod, did you ever tried to assertain that how many active fighters/terrorists attached with all of the Jihadi organisations in Pakistan? And do you have a moral courage to tell us that how much private army is developed by these Hindu criminal organisations? The figure in india is in Millions. Do you ever saw a female suicider in Kashmir or elsewhere in India,send my Jihadi organisations? And do you not know that how many indian women are active memeber and got military training under RSS, VHP etc? Poverty produces criminal. Islam consider poverty the biggest evil and stress to control and eliminate it. As this convince the poor to commit the crime. So I want your nation to eliminate your poverty.

But I would never be saying that, if I knew that India and Indian government do not sufficient resources to handle the poverty. But, as now, they do have resources. They must invest these resources on the well being of the people of Indian. Instead of buying the submarines and world's most costly fighter jets, you must provide basic necessaties of life to the common people.

At one side, your country, India tries to glorifies itself with the false and bogus rising claims and on the other side you offer reward money to use government provided toilets. Do you not feel shame, while doing so?

You are the world's biggest laboratory of medicine testing, while you earn hundreds of billions of dollars. Is this not strange? Instead you protect your people from being used as animals, you earn money by killing them, is this not the case?

The characterisitics of capitalism were not integerated in Pakistan's five year plan, which was later copied by koreans. However, if any or all of the componants were matching to those of capitalism. That does not mean that we are following capitalism. I am sure you have atleast this much intelligence in your head. But intentioanly tried to manipulate it according to your interests. A typical act of a biased person.

And yes Pakistan also has many problems. Can you name a single country in the world, which do not have problems. As we want to know that if such country argue on bad treatement of poor indians, you would not be saying the same to them too?

And, by the way, few of the problems faced by Pakistan are because of India. Now see, we have to keep hundreds of thousands of military on border, just because of false claims of your government and especially by your stupid Foreign Minister, who change his statements daily. Isn't it?

How about you tell us that what is HDI and how it had been developed?
And also that whether your country standards and world bank standards are same or you changed them to show better picture of your country.

Would love to listen more from you Indians...

 

[PakistanFront]

vinod

And I hope you start doing that from now

I am already responding calmly and positively.

And where is that coming from. Not out of thin air but because of the industriousness of ordinary Indians.

Indians are not becoming poorer. Their income is increasing every year. I see that all around me. Though obviously a lot remains to be done. Same as in your country

Vinod, don't be silly. The one in Zimbabwe, whose earning was far less than what he is earning now is also getting poorer every day. If you start getting more units of currency than past that does not mean that your poverty started declining. The price of egg in Zimbabwe was less than a Zimbabwe dollar and what is the price now???

If you need 1000 Rs to spend your month, while you earn 100. How can you consider yourself as not poor? Then, your earnings increased from 100 to 150 but the cost of life went to 1500. How can you say that your poverty is decreasing, as you getting more than past?

Yes, you are wrong. If an NRI Indian buys a steel mill, it is not Indian money going abroad. Nor when Tata buys Chorus or Jaguar and Land-Rover or Tetley. Most of these are leveraged buy-outs (Meaning financed by the future earnings of the companies being bought) and are financed by international capital. What Indian companies are providing is supposedly superior management and strategy.

Vinod, have some mercy over you and your fellow countrymen. Now see, how you ended this para by saying "Superior Management and Strategy". This is what their country need and the experts of India are investing their expertise elsewhere in the world and also money and not in India. Your capitalists are becoming more and more powerful than anyone else in India. Infect, there is a race between fundamental and criminal Hindu organisations and these entrepreneurs. The one who will win this race will rule India in future. Remember my words. Your best choice is to control both of them and keep them in their pants. You have enough money in hand. But these resources are not changing the life of the common people of India.Why? Because, at one hand, these criminal Hindu terrorists organisations are pumping Indian government and pressurising it to be more strict in Hindutva favour. Thus trying to use issues, religiously and on the other hand, your entrepreneurs are getting relief and entrepreneur friendly policies to make sure that they will be able to do whatever they want to. No matter whatever keep happening in people's life. Banglore earns big portion of Indian exports, are all banglorians are rich. At least you must not see the poverty their. Why poor employees are selling credit cards details? Because they are not paid, what they deserve. Now, imagine that similar incidents would also happens in Pakistan. But not that much and why is that? because people are always paid good in IT companies. While what Indian developers are getting from their entrepreneurs? Please enlighten us.

Investments both inwards and outwards is a good thing for the country. Otherwise there would be no outwards investment by any country!

Inward and outward investment is not false. But, you tell me one thing first.

If you do not have a home and live on footpaths. Will you buy a house for your another homeless friend first or for yourself. When you will have suffient funds?

Your countrymen are dying by poverty. Your terrorist and criminal hindu organisations are paying to poor indians if they kill one or more Non-Hindu Indian and you need resources to eliminate poverty. You are sending your earnings from other countries back to those countries in the name of outward investments. What the hell is the purpose of this outward investment for you. To double your money? Once it will be doubled, will you not re-invest it elsewhere and will use your doubled money in India? OK.


And fyi, India is building sufficient steel capacity for its needs. There are many large steel plants in the pipeline which are capable of meeting Indian needs even leaving a surplus for export

First of al, where I can find this information, by the way? And secondly, when India will be able to export steel products? Do you have details of it? Or it is also just another Indian plunder, as mukerjee is doing now a days.

 

[PakistanFront]

One should understand difference between city and small town, Very few know about the town you are mentioning and that also due to it recently in news. But whats wrong with that news ?

Also please use "Quote" button on the bottom right of the user's post before quoting someone other wise its extra work and adds to some confusion.

It would be great if you also provide links if you are referring to any source like news etc

What is the purpose of distinction between city and town? Do you realy think others fool and you can make them more fool? What the hell this meant to you. If this is not city but town then it is not worth to read? Is this what you meant to say?

press quote button and this and that. These all are negative tactics, usually used by propganda masters like you. When you fail to argue you start diverting other's attentions to non-issue. Stop this foolishness.

Son, copy past the heading in google and get the link. If I fullfiled one wish you will popup with another. What if you requested, "Sire, will you please change my nappy?"

 

[PakistanFront]

logic note

Failure is lack of Progress so India is rising faster then ever before . Problems existed and we are solving them .
So if someone finds pleasure in others problems then there must be something wrong with his thinking process ..
No wonder , People growing with a biased educational curricullam cant be cured

Showing you your face in mirror is not because of biased education. Why not you go through the post # 1 once again and pop up with logical resonings of sufferings of Indian people. If someone try to tell you that your fellow countrymen are dying due to hunger and poverty. You must say thanks to him, instead bashing on him. Learn to live in the global society.

 

[Vinod2070]

PakistanFront, your concern is appreciated and we will do our best to address your genuine concerns.

Hope you will do the same.

 

[PakistanFront]

Yes, ofcourse. We are also not living in the paradise. Hundreds of problems are also on our site.

But, in a joint sessions with each other. We will always discuss the issues which are common in both countries. The biggest evil on earth under India and Pakistan is poverty. Let's pray that we would have a sincere leadership to sort out the problems and all the problems between the two countries will finish automatically.

By the way, What our concerns are that the hardliners in India and Pakistan and oppertunity seekers are driving the common people to the wrong side. Now, it is your duty to educate the people on your site and it is our duty to do the same on our site.

The rest will be fine. InshAllah.

 

[hasang20]

there are 2 Indians 1 tourist sees and 1 the real middle class n poor live in