Reverse Engineering Is Extremely Difficult

[sohan]

China was THE #1 economy in the pre-modern world, far ahead of the rest of the world. henc e there's no surprise that the bulk of pre-modern inventions of mankind came from China. Most of the rest world tried to copy /reverse engineer. FACT!

Actually China and India took turns at being first and second.

 

[ao333]

The ones sneer at reverse engineering are bull**ks!

I give you a lighter, can you reverse engineer it yourself, and build it from scratchyourself ?

I then given you and CD player, can you reverse engineer it yourself, and build it from scratch yourself ?

then I give you a decade-old fashion computer...

then I give you a missile... a warship... a F-22A raptor... a latest computer chip... can you reverse engineer them yourself?

The answer to all above questions are:

for a few people/nations, yes; for most others, no.


Reverse engineering is the ONLY way up. The ones disagree with it are patently delusional !


Pineering works are the most difficult ones. Hence in the entire history of mankind, only top 2 or 3 most developed econmies at a time have had industrial capacities and overall knowledge base to do pioneering work.

That said, it doesn't mean other lesser countries have not done something, or can not do any original works, yet the scope and numbers of their original works have been very limited compared with the top 3 countries.


China was THE #1 economy in the pre-modern world, far ahead of the rest of the world. henc e there's no surprise that the bulk of pre-modern inventions of mankind came from China. Most of the rest world tried to copy /reverse engineer. FACT!

Europeans was cataching up from 15th century onwards...started to surpass China in 17th/18th century...and they started the lead inventing, traded-marked by industrial revolution in England. Hence Britain was the #1 in 19th century and was responsable for the bulk of world inventions for the periord. Most of the rest world tried to copy /reverse engineer. FACT!


Pre-WWII Germany was the #1 industrial power (other eminent powers were japan, Britain, France) . Hence German ( till 3rd Reich) inventions were largely leading the world. Most of the rest world tried to copy /reverse engineer. FACT!

Post WWII, USA came along being the #1 ( so were some fommer Soviet millitary tech) .... Hence US techonolgies were largely leading the world. Only several nations such as Germany, Japan, Former Sov, UK were capable doing the original works due to their residual strength of their previous industrial endeavour. Most of the rest world tried to copy /reverse engineer. FACT!


Note that in entire history only a handful of people CAN do reverse engineering to catch up and then lead. They are mainly Chinese (and other related northeast Asians), Europeans (Germans, francos, Scandinavians including Russians, ancient Greeks/Romans), some ancientArabs, some ancient Hindus.

There is NO USA and so called Amercians, Canadians. Without Europeans and East Asians, the North America would be a thrid world cesspol!

What about 21th century? Use your imagination... but sneering at reverse engineering is the most stupid thing one can come up with, as for a non-leading economy ( measured by sophistication especially, not only by size) reverse engineering is the only way to make to the top 3.

The difference is that only several countries in history have demostrated capabilities to successfully do reverse engineering, whereasa others simply can´t even though they dream that they could, hence will almost always remain at the bottom of the rankings.

No one is saying that reverse engineering is easy. It's just that much more difficult to invent raptors.

 

[LonglivedChinPak]

China should resort to reverse engineering because of the current arms and technological embargoes imposed by the US and the EU since 1989. But these embargoes have not prevented China to produce an aegis type destroyer and frigate, goalkeeper CIWS, type 99 MBT, HQ9 etc. China should give the best of its weaponry to Pakistan. In contrast India has not been able to produce a single acceptable indigeneous weapon despite massive EU, Israel and US help.

 

[sohan]

^ I won't even bother

 

[Martian2]

Let's review the information gathered. If you're technologically behind the United States then it makes sense to reverse-engineer a Mark-48 torpedo that a fisherman caught in a fishing net. Reverse-engineering saves time and money on research and development.

If a sample is not available, you do it the hard way. Want a Type 99 Main Battle Tank or a "Satellite Killer"? You have to build it on your own.

My assessment is that China reverse-engineers wherever possible, but she will perform complete indigenous research and development if necessary (e.g. anti-ship ballistic missile or "Carrier Killer"). Also, we are all well-aware that China is "debugging" her WZ-10 attack helicopter, which is clearly indigenous.


WZ-10 Attack Helicopter

Has China's pursuit of a combination of reverse-engineering and indigenous research and development lessened her dependence on foreign arms imports? The following article answers that question.

China leaves India behind in arms self-reliance - dnaindia.com

"China leaves India behind in arms self-reliance
Josy Joseph / DNA Friday, March 19, 2010 1:01 IST

New Delhi: Forty ordnance factories, eight defence public sector undertakings, several defence research institutes and one of the largest arms industries in the non-western world, yet India is among the biggest buyers of foreign arms. While China, another big importer, has moved rapidly towards indigenisation, India is yet to take a big stride towards self-reliance.

India is showing no sign of a drop in its hunger for foreign arms, according to the arms purchase data for 2005-09 released by Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (Sipri) on Monday.

While China and India top the list of recipients of foreign military equipment in the period, the volume of arms transferred to these countries, the biggest importers of the decade, “has decreased by 20% and 7 %” during 2005-09, the report says.

This means China is moving away from its dependence on foreign equipment. “Transfer of major conventional weapons systems to China has dropped significantly in the past three years. With the exception of a handful of helicopters from France and Russia, no major conventional weapons were delivered to China in 2009,” the report says.

India, by contrast, continues to receive several weapons systems from Russia, Israel, Europe and the US. The report points out that the “volume of deliveries to India and Pakistan has increased significantly in recent years and will continue to rise in the next five years”. India imports over 70% of its military ware. It wants to reverse this trend, but there is no clear road map to achieve it yet.

The decision making by the government is skewed in favour of imports. While the military system deliberately keeps the private sector out of most contracts, PSUs are largely becoming assembling units for foreign kits, or suppliers of foreign equipment. This policy has effectively sealed the capability expansion in defence sector, which is usually among the biggest employers in the organised sector in major economies.

According to some estimates, for every $1 billion purchase India makes from Israel, it helps the latter retain 20,000 high-end jobs.
Besides the loss of employment and engineering capability, are the concerns of sanctions and problems with import dependence.
The report points out that “the volume of arms transferred to the top five major recipients for the period 2005-2009 has increased by 4% over 2000-2004.” The top five recipients accounted for “32% of the imports of major conventional weapons”. Of it, India accounted for 7% and China 9%.

For Russian systems, India was the second biggest recipient during 2005-09, behind China. However, China is no more a great importer of Rusisan equipment, while India continues to be.
Besides, India is among the top recipients of arms from Israel, US and the UK."

 

[Speeder 2]

No one is saying that reverse engineering is easy. It's just that much more difficult to invent raptors.

Then of course it is much more difficult to invent raptors!

In fact only 1 country in the world is able to do such.

And this particular country is also the most technologically

developed country on earth.


In fact this's the country where most innovations take place.

This is "by chance"?

If you are not this country, namely USA, or the other top ones,

"to innovate" and "to not to reverse engineer" without neccesary massive industrial capability and overall knowldge base to back up are just empty slogans. e.g. previous examples such as "even one can design a world-class chip, one still can't neccesarily make that design happen". Why not? cuz it lacks overall capability.


As I repeatedly said, reverse engineer ( in a nutshell, is to Learn from the best) is the ONLY way to catch up with the top level to lead the world, so there 's nothing to be larughed at.

It is indeed the quality of reverse engineering, the speed of doing so, the overall industrial level it can amount to by doing so, that really count.


However, if one doesn't want to catch up in order to lead the world (thus innovating) due to its lack of ambition or capability or most likely both, there are many other ways apart from reverse engineering.

 

[Martian2]

Another exciting Chinese innovation is her Julang-2 SLBM that only has two stages, which is more efficient than the conventional three stages of the Trident II SLBM. The Julang-2 SLBM is carried by the Type 094 Jin-class SSBN.

Jin-class SSBN


JL-1 and JL-2 Missiles.

I previously wrote:

"Estimated range of 14,000 km for the JL-2 is at the upper range of estimates, but it is still close to the 12,000 km range for the Trident II. The extra 2,000 km may be explained by a slightly bigger JL-2 missile or arming the missile with a smaller warhead to reduce the weight.

A third possible explanation is that, since the JL-2 was built 16 years after the Trident II, the JL-2 may have been designed with improved lightweight (e.g. composite) materials and/or been lavished with a lot more supercomputer time on its design.

A fourth possible explanation is that the JL-2 has only two stages, instead of the three stages for the Trident II. "Such design simplifies the structure of the missile and largely reduces missile's overall weight by reducing one stage." (See newslink below)

I selected Wikipedia as a source because I wanted to quote that two Type 094 submarines have been "confirmed to be launched" and the "United States government has expressed concern over these submarines, saying that the Chinese government has not been transparent enough about the program." Feel free to adjust the JL-2 range downward to "11000-12000 km" to match the Trident II's range.

JL-2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"In late 1980s and 1990s, an academician of the Chinese Academy of Engineering named Wang Zhenhua (王振&#21326 proposed a new theory typically for the JL-2 SLBM, called "(Free) Relaxation into Trajectory" (自由入&#36712.

Based on this theory, JL-2 only needs two stages to achieve its intercontinental status instead of three. Conventionally, any type of ICBMs has three phases to finish its flight: (i) the boost phase, (ii) the mid-course phase, and (iii) the terminal phase. Wang's idea is to combine the first and the second phases into one, the passive-boost phase (助推&#27573. Plus the final atmospheric reentry phase, therefore, in total the JL-2's trajectory only has two phases and two stages.

The first phase is based on the first solid-fueled rocket engine (first stage). The first stage passively launches the missile out of the atmosphere, and accelerates it into a speed in between the first (7.9 km/s) and second (11.2 km/s) escape velocities. When the missile is in this transition state, the first stage booster sheds off, and the missile automatically adapts its "free" trajectory and further reaches its maximium altitude (without a constant velocity); the dominating force here is just the earth's gravity. The second stage engine (liquid-fueled) then starts working.

Normally, SLBM has three stages. Such design simplifies the structure of the missile and largely reduces missile's overall weight by reducing one stage. Additionally, it increases the atmospheric reentry velocity, which leads to more difficult interception, such as, by the NMD.""

 

[noksss]

China should resort to reverse engineering because of the current arms and technological embargoes imposed by the US and the EU since 1989. But these embargoes have not prevented China to produce an aegis type destroyer and frigate, goalkeeper CIWS, type 99 MBT, HQ9 etc. China should give the best of its weaponry to Pakistan. In contrast India has not been able to produce a single acceptable indigeneous weapon despite massive EU, Israel and US help.

i accept that india got help from foreign countries for arjun tank .But i dont accept with the fact that despite of getting the help india cant make acceptable indigineous weapon
Lets compare arjun with one of the best tank in the world Abrahams
Abrahams :
------------
1)Combat weight
69.54 tons
2)Ground Pressure
15.4 PSI
3)1500 hp engine
4)Max road speed
68 km/h
5)Cross-country speed
48 km/h
6)armament
120 mm M256
7)ammunation type
APFSDS
8)Price
$ 5.4 mn

Arjun:
-----
1)Combat weight
58.5 tons
2)Ground Pressure
11.9 PSI
3)1500 hp engine
4)Max road speed
72 km/h
5)Cross-country speed
40 km/h
6)armament
120 mm rifled
7)ammunation type
APFSDS,HEAT
8)Price
$ 4 mn

also weight of the arjun tank if often cited as a failure, in
actuality, the tank is not very heavy as compared to Abrahams Despite its weight, it has very low ground pressure which will
prevent the tank from ‘sinking in the sand’ as widely criticized. The M1A2, heavier than Arjun by more than 10tons and with much higher ground pressure, performed remarkably well
in the desert sands during the first Gulf War.

And the former army chief Kapoor appreciated the performance of the tank and written the letter to defence ministry So going by your words India has not been able to produce a single acceptable indigeneous weapon
is stupid bcoz even the army chief has accepted the weapon so whom are u mentioning not acceptable is it pakistan or china bcoz it's accepted by our army

 

[Martian2]

i accept that india got help from foreign countries for arjun tank .But i dont accept with the fact that despite of getting the help india cant make acceptable indigineous weapon
Lets compare arjun with one of the best tank in the world Abrahams
Abrahams :
------------
1)Combat weight
69.54 tons
2)Ground Pressure
15.4 PSI
3)1500 hp engine
4)Max road speed
68 km/h
5)Cross-country speed
48 km/h
6)armament
120 mm M256
7)ammunation type
APFSDS
8)Price
$ 5.4 mn

Arjun:
-----
1)Combat weight
58.5 tons
2)Ground Pressure
11.9 PSI
3)1500 hp engine
4)Max road speed
72 km/h
5)Cross-country speed
40 km/h
6)armament
120 mm rifled
7)ammunation type
APFSDS,HEAT
8)Price
$ 4 mn

also weight of the arjun tank if often cited as a failure, in
actuality, the tank is not very heavy as compared to Abrahams Despite its weight, it has very low ground pressure which will
prevent the tank from ‘sinking in the sand’ as widely criticized. The M1A2, heavier than Arjun by more than 10tons and with much higher ground pressure, performed remarkably well
in the desert sands during the first Gulf War.

And the former army chief Kapoor appreciated the performance of the tank and written the letter to defence ministry So going by your words India has not been able to produce a single acceptable indigeneous weapon
is stupid bcoz even the army chief has accepted the weapon so whom are u mentioning not acceptable is it pakistan or china bcoz it's accepted by our army

I don't think that you can claim that the Arjun tank is indigenous, because "50% of the tank's components are imported, which include the engine, transmission, gun barrel, tracks, and fire control system."

Arjun (tank) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Despite DRDO's attempts at indigenization, the Arjun relied heavily on foreign components and technology. DRDO received major design assistance from Krauss Maffei, the developer of the German Leopard 2 tank, and several other German firms. As a result, Arjun's design is very similar to that of Leopard 2A4 tank.[10] 50% of the tank's components are imported, which include the engine, transmission, gun barrel, tracks, and fire control system.[11] Recent reports from India indicate that the Russian T-90S will form the mainstay of its future force, despite that tank’s performance issues in hot weather. At the same time, the Indian Army wants to cap production of indigenous Arjun tanks to 124 units, due to repeated trial failures and vast budget overruns.[12]"

 

[Guest]

I understand what you are trying to say. But do you think that economy can be sustained for long term? At one point of time you'd run out of things to reverse engineer, then what would you do?

Reverse engineering is a good way in the short term, but its high time, China starts thinking about innovation and invention.

US is the world leader because it innovates. By the time you copy F22, they would have moved on to space weapons. Innovation does pay in the long run.

If you ask me to make a lighter, or a computer, it will take me some time to understand how it works and I can make it after that.

But if I ask you to make a teleportation machine or CO2 to C + O2 converter, what would you do then? Would you be able to make it?

No. It just won't be possible.

first of all, don't mix up there two words. invent and innovate is not the same thing. iPod is an innovation product not invention, but the battery used in iPod is an invention. you may herd of open innovation but never herd of open invention,right.

1)when you are "run out of things to reverse engineer" then you will try to invent things. did you ever herd of China reverse engineering guns, artilleries or tanks anymore. no, the make or invent their own.

invention is good, but a foundation is needed before you could invent something. of course, you could do it all over again like somebody did in the past, but reverse engineering is a much more faster way to build the foundation.

2) yes, you are right, US can not be caught up by RE. but without RE, China would be even far far behind than what she can achieve today, because no one know what to be researched.

3) finally, the lighter. can you make it all by you own, from mining the raw material to assembling the lighter? or maybe i should ask in this way. if you were sent back to 1000AD, can you still make the lighter? most likely, no. because the foundation was not yet to be built.

 

[Canaan]

that wz-10 is a sexy chopper
I wish I could see it in desert or woodland camo... yum!

 

[Martian2]

It's time for more sexy pictures of China's indigenous and innovative weapons.

Type 093 Shang-class Nuclear Attack Submarine

Type 093 submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The Type 093 (NATO reporting name: Shang, Chinese designation: 09-III) is a nuclear powered attack submarine class deployed by the Chinese People's Liberation Army Navy. These boats are expected to replace the older Type 091 (NATO: Han class) SSNs currently in service. The Type 093 will be armed with various torpedoes and anti-ship missiles.

The lead boat in this class was launched in 2002. It is thought to have a seven-blade asymmetric propeller. Construction of the Type 093 submarines is being conducted at the Bohai Shipyard in Huludao. Six to eight boats are expected to be built.

Program
...
However, Russian involvement in the 093 project cannot be confirmed by any source, the extended re-fits to the 091 Han-class SSNs appeared to be the reason of delaying the development of the Type 093, not the rumoured cause of encountering massive technical difficulty nor waiting for the supposed Russian involvement. In a matter of fact, during a visit to China in early 2000s, the Russian chief designer of the Kilo class submarine (also designed by Rubin Central Design Bureau, which China bought 12 of in total) was reported to have been denied the request to even visit either the Song class or the 093 class submarine program, and later according to interview made by Pinkov of Kanwa Defence Review, the Rubin Design Bureau denied that they had any kind of involvement with the Chinese nuclear sub program. Recently released photos have put the theory of relation to the Victor class and Russian design help of the 093 class in doubt as the Type 093 does not seem to be influenced by the Victor design.
...
Design

The Type 093 is estimated to be roughly 7000t displacement when dived. The Type 093 is estimated to be 110 metres (360 ft) long with a beam of 11m and can dive to a maximum depth of 400 metres (1,300 ft). It is estimated to have a noise level of 110db[3] and have an endurance of 80 days. This submarine is the first to incorporate flank linear array sonars designated as H/SQG-207 in its design, and this linear flank array was designed by the 715th Institute, with deputy chief designer Mr. Li Qihu (李启&#34382, who was the chief designer of H/SQ-2 262/262A/262B/262C/H-SQG-4 sonars used to upgrade Type 035, 033, both 091 and 092, 035G, and 039 submarines.

Weapons

The Type 093 is expected to be armed with six 533 mm and/or 650 mm torpedo tubes that will launch Russian or indigenous wire-, acoustic, and wake-homing torpedoes as well as anti-ship and land attack cruise missiles. This could include the submarine launched version of YJ-83 anti-ship missile. Currently YJ-83 is not believed to be nuclear tipped. Nuclear deterrence missions are delegated to the 092 Xia class and 094 Jin class SSBN."

YJ-83 Anti-ship Missile

 

[Guest]

Reverse Engineering is not that tough when compared innovation

actually, that is extremely easy. i could just link a iPod and a speaker, place them in a cube and then name it iBox. and iBox is an innovation that can be sold, suppose the manufactures do not sue me.

 

[My-Analogous]

Sir, for the record, you can patent for a chair.



And no, I'm not saying that designing is, but relatively, much easier than chip fabrication. AMD had 64 bit designs ready WAY before the plants could make the compatible hardware. Heck, they even have 128 bits ready now. How many arduous years of overtures will it take for STM to procure the lines capable of producing those?

I recently just heard of a scandel in Shanghai's Fudan university of their capabilities to produce x86 80486-comparable chips. Guess what? It turned out to be a 486 with the intel tradmark scrubbed off! Evidently, China does not have the capacity to produce 486 equivalent chips or ... err... even LCD boards, which you guys produce using patented Korean technology.

Martian2: I simply adore the 052C. But it's just too highly radar-based. It lacks the ASW and ASM capabilities Aegis' got. By the way, with a mark 48, that destroyer is hardly ASW compared to M. 54... With Vietnam's recent purchase of 6 kilos, I don't think it can go beyond Xisha in a battle. It is nevertheless a beauty.

simple answer for all this crap

China's Loongson Processor Could Power First Natural-Born Chinese Supercomputer - Supercomputer - Gizmodo

The People's Republic has unveiled more details on its quest to phase U.S.-made processors from its microchip diet. China's next supercomputer will run purely on Chinese processors, possibly before the end of this year.

China has been developing its own CPUs at the state-run Institute of Computing Technology (ICT) for several years, but iterations of its chip – known as Loongson or "Dragon Core" – have been incapable of breaking into the elite ranks of supercomputing. China's last supercomputer, the Dawning 5000a, was intended to run on Loongson processors, but was eventually constructed around AMD processors when the ICT couldn't deliver a powerful enough chip quickly enough.

The Loongson 3, under development since 2001, should change all this if the ICT can deliver on its promise. Based on the MIPS architecture, the chips theoretically can be strung in 16-core clusters to perform at extremely high speeds, possibly hitting the petaflop performance mark with just 782 16-core chips. That's one quadrillion operations per second, for those of you keeping score.

Right now, of course, this is all on paper (well, a quad-core chip is in prototype, but the proposed 16-core bad boy is still under development). But authorities in the supercomputing field seem to agree that the chips, running in clusters, can hit the performance marks necessary to create a top-tier supercomputer. This isn't the first time the Chinese have promised a home-grown high-performance supercomputer, but for the first time it looks like they are going to deliver.

so brother live in your own world

 

[My-Analogous]

Actually China and India took turns at being first and second.

India