Reverse Engineering Is Extremely Difficult

[below_freezing]

there is no license production. they are based on, that is, engineered based on previous specifications, foreign parts, not license or imported.

if france disappeared tomorrow, those frigates will still run.

 

[Martian2]

So are u saying when something is license produced for TYPE-054 then its indigenous
and if the same thing is imported for Arjun then its not indigenous

My friend, I know that you feel patriotic and you love your country. However, for the moment, forget the Type 054.

Due to the high-percentage (e.g. 50&#37 and the importance of those critical components (e.g. engine, transmission, gun barrel, tracks, and fire control system), the Arjun tank is not indigenous because half of the Arjun tank is built in German factories. The current Arjun tank fails on a quantitative and qualitative basis to qualify as indigenous.

Why don't you bring up the issue again in five years? If a future Arjun tank is composed of 80% indigenous manufacture, regardless of the importance of components, I will be willing to agree with you that it should qualify as indigenous. I call this my "close enough" doctrine.

Alternatively, whenever India is able to manufacture any 3 of the 5 critical components (e.g. engine, transmission, gun barrel, tracks, and fire control system), I am also willing to concede that the Arjun tank is indigenous on a qualitative basis. I won't object even if the Arjun tank was only composed of 70% indigenous components. I call this my "sufficient proof of technical skills" theory.

There you have it. I'm willing to agree that the Arjun is of indigenous manufacture if either 80% of that tank is manufactured in India (e.g. "close enough") or India can reverse-engineer any 3 of the 5 imported critical components (e.g. engine, transmission, gun barrel, tracks, and fire control system; "sufficient proof of technical skills").

I hope that you will agree that my view is reasonable. There are plenty of zealous Indians who like to pester me in some of my other threads. The fact that no other Indian has stepped forward to assert that the current Arjun tank is of indigenous manufacture should be an indication to you that the Arjun is not yet indigenous.

 

[sohan]

The engine and transmission are provided by German companies MTU and Renk respectively.[28] The water-cooled engine generates 1,400 hp and is integrated with an Indian turbocharger and epicyclic train gearbox with four forward and 2 reverse gears.[29] A local transmission is under trials and will envisions to ultimately replace the Renk-supplied unit.[28] The tracks which were being supplied by German company Diehl are now being manufactured by L & T, an Indian company.[28] The cooling pack has been designed for desert operations. The Arjun has a lower ground pressure than the lighter T-72, due to its design.[28]
The Arjun has a state-of-the-art hydro-pneumatic suspension.[30] This coupled with the Arjun's stabilisation and fire control system allows the tank superb first-hit probability against moving targets while on the move.[30] Its ride comfort is highly praised.[30] Though on the negative side, it is a more maintenance-intensive and expensive system, even if more capable than the simpler and cheaper torsion bar system utilized on many older tanks worldwide.[31] During trials, the Arjun showcased its fording capability, by driving under 6 feet of water for 20 minutes.[32]
A new 1500 hp engine is being developed that will eventually replace the present engine. An allocation of 40 crore Rupees has been allocated for the project which is expected to be completed within five years.[33]

All the significant things you mentioned are non-indigenous, e.g engine/transmission etc is being developed. The transmission is being trialled and the tracks are already being sourced from L&T.

I wish they gave those funds for the engine to a private company instead :/

I will still call the Arjun indigenous it is still >60% Indian, good enough for me.

 

[Martian2]

All the significant things you mentioned are non-indigenous, e.g engine/transmission etc is being developed. The transmission is being trialled and the tracks are already being sourced from L&T.

I wish they gave those funds for the engine to a private company instead :/

I will still call the Arjun indigenous it is still >60% Indian, good enough for me.

You will face a difficult challenge in convincing the world or non die-hard Indians that a tank with only 60% indigenous components is indigenous. The obvious question is: When Germany doesn't ship to you the other 40% (or 50% as it is currently), can you still build an Arjun tank? The answer is clearly "no." Therefore, without Germany, you don't have an Arjun tank. Ergo, Arjun is not indigenous.

A real-world example is India's cryogenic rocket engine. Without a functioning cryogenic engine, can India launch the rocket? The answer is clearly "no." India is reverting to using the two extra Russian cryogenic engines that it has already bought.

Why do I use the 80% "close enough" threshold? Ideally, the threshold should be closer to 90%. Why 90%? Since a country's industry can almost manufacture the entire tank, the assumption is that you possess the industrial and technological capability to cobble together a sub-optimum solution to enable your tank to still function.

For example, a country imports 10% of the parts for their tank. Though it will not be optimal, surely that country can manufacture a sub-optimal but effective temporary tank barrel, transmission, or treads. I intentionally lowered the threshold to 80% to make it easier for "noksss" to come back in five years and proclaim an indigenous Arjun.

For your information, "sohan," the first 124 Arjun tanks contain 60% imported components. Even if we use your definition of 60% indigenous manufacture and 40% imported components, the first 124 Arjun tanks still do not qualify as indigenous. The first 124 Arjun tanks are 60% foreign and only 40% indigenous.

The Indian Arjun Main Battle Tank

"The Arjun is India’s first true effort at an indigenous tank. However it is hard to see how a vehicle that relies on 60% of its components being imported as “indigenous"."

 

[sohan]

Neither India or I have to convince anyone that our tank is indigenous. It won't matter if the engine is sourced from Germany when it kicks some serious MBT-2000 ***.

We'll gradually build on it, until it reaches the point where it is completely or as you claimed to be the definition of indigenous, 90%+ sourced from Indian companies.

Of course there's the claim that the JF-17 is a joint venture when as of yet, I don't know of a single Pakistani part in it. In fact I wonder if the MBT-2000 or the Al Khalid as it's called in Pakistan has even met the 50% indigenous requirement.

 

[sohan]

For your information, "sohan," the first 124 Arjun tanks contain 60% imported components. Even if we use your definition of 60% indigenous manufacture and 40% imported components, the first 124 Arjun tanks still do not qualify as indigenous. The first 124 Arjun tanks are 60% foreign and only 40% indigenous.

The article stated before that it was more like a 50-50 ratio between indigenous and foreign parts.

Now that the tracks, transmission and major parts of the engine are sourced from India, I claimed a 60-40 ratio in favour of indigenous.

 

[sohan]

I meant the article I cited.

 

[Martian2]

The article stated before that it was more like a 50-50 ratio between indigenous and foreign parts.

Now that the tracks, transmission and major parts of the engine are sourced from India, I claimed a 60-40 ratio in favour of indigenous.

1) According to India Today, the first 124 Arjun tanks have 60% foreign components.

All dressed up and no takers: India Today - Latest Breaking News from India, World, Business, Cricket, Sports, Bollywood.

"All dressed up and no takers
Sandeep Unnithan
September 5, 2008
...
Sure, nearly 60 per cent of the components of the first batch of 124 tanks, including the German-built power pack are imported. The DRDO says these will be reduced to under 30 per cent after it builds 500 tanks."

2) According to Wikipedia, current Arjun tanks have 50% foreign components.

Arjun (tank) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Despite DRDO's attempts at indigenization, the Arjun relied heavily on foreign components and technology. DRDO received major design assistance from Krauss Maffei, the developer of the German Leopard 2 tank, and several other German firms. As a result, Arjun's design is very similar to that of Leopard 2A4 tank.[10] 50% of the tank's components are imported, which include the engine, transmission, gun barrel, tracks, and fire control system.[11]"

3) Come back in five years and I'll agree that the Arjun is indigenous. Why am I willing to sacrifice my quantitative and qualitative standards? I have a new "inevitability" doctrine. Eventually, it will be indigenous. There is no harm in bestowing the "indigenous" label a few years early.

India has been building the Arjun for a long time. It couldn't hurt to give a few extra bonus points for persistence and effort. In any case, they've waited long enough.

 

[sohan]

"Despite DRDO's attempts at indigenization, the Arjun relied heavily on foreign components and technology. DRDO received major design assistance from Krauss Maffei, the developer of the German Leopard 2 tank, and several other German firms. As a result, Arjun's design is very similar to that of Leopard 2A4 tank.[10] 50% of the tank's components are imported, which include the engine, transmission, gun barrel, tracks, and fire control system.[11]"

"The engine and transmission are provided by German companies MTU and Renk respectively.[28] The water-cooled engine generates 1,400 hp and is integrated with an Indian turbocharger and epicyclic train gearbox with four forward and 2 reverse gears.[29] A local transmission is under trials and will envisions to ultimately replace the Renk-supplied unit.[28] The tracks which were being supplied by German company Diehl are now being manufactured by L & T, an Indian company.[28]"

An engine is also in the works. Considering India's experience in automotive experience, I would expect it in some usable form to materialise well within the next 3 years.

The tracks are Indian
Major parts of the engine are Indian
A transmission system has also been developed in India.

Once the complete engine is developed, I believe it will meet an 80-90% indigenous requirement. Until then I believe a 60-40 is more than enough to call it indigenous. Compare it to the

I believe the only non indigenous part that remains is the fire control system. For further orders after the original 124. A BEL system will be used.

 

[Martian2]

"The engine and transmission are provided by German companies MTU and Renk respectively.[28] The water-cooled engine generates 1,400 hp and is integrated with an Indian turbocharger and epicyclic train gearbox with four forward and 2 reverse gears.[29] A local transmission is under trials and will envisions to ultimately replace the Renk-supplied unit.[28] The tracks which were being supplied by German company Diehl are now being manufactured by L & T, an Indian company.[28]"

An engine is also in the works. Considering India's experience in automotive experience, I would expect it in some usable form to materialise well within the next 3 years.

The tracks are Indian
Major parts of the engine are Indian
A transmission system has also been developed in India.

Once the complete engine is developed, I believe it will meet an 80-90% indigenous requirement. Until then I believe a 60-40 is more than enough to call it indigenous. Compare it to the

I believe the only non indigenous part that remains is the fire control system. For further orders after the original 124. A BEL system will be used.

We will have to disagree. Many Indians and non-Indians do not believe that the Arjun is indigenous. One set of tank tracks does not suddenly make the Arjun indigenous. When pro-Indian Hindustan Times and your own countrymen say that the Arjun is not indigenous, you have a problem.

http://news.in.msn.com/internalsecurity/features/article.aspx?cp-documentid=3648438

"Mar 2, 2010 ... The comparative trails of the Arjun vs T 90 are being seen by the Army ... and also the fact that the arjun tank is mostly built of imported parts, ... There seems to be a power lobby that wants to go for foreign weapon ..."

News feed from Hindustan Times syndication:

Arjun versus T-90 a unique trial. - Free Online Library

"Arjun versus T-90 a unique trial.
...
There is also the problem of fleet management, how does one address a mixed fleet with different overhaul schedules and deployment areas, a question of spares management, and control of different inventories, their availability, is the tank wholly indigenous, if not what is the foreign content. Arjun has a high amount of import content and it is hardly indigenous and, therefore, the decision post-trials will only get more complex, all will flout the trial results as proof to show that they are aggrieved, have we put another spanner for interested parties to go before the media, we as a race are;litigation centric'."

Idiots and Scum-buckets Lead India to Ruin by Gaurang Bhatt, MD

"Idiots and Scum-buckets Lead India to Ruin
by Gaurang Bhatt, MD
...
Even the much delayed and previously deficient Arjun tank and Tejas aircraft have large imported foreign components with the DRDO mainly being assemblers. The DRDO now wins bids without competition excluding private Indian companies by teaming up with Israeli and other foreign companies. One is unsure if any bribery is involved and how secure the software is."

Non-Indian opinion:

The Indian Arjun Main Battle Tank

"The Arjun is India’s first true effort at an indigenous tank. However it is hard to see how a vehicle that relies on 60% of its components being imported as “indigenous"."

 

[sohan]

Well I've provided facts that the only major part in the Arjun is the engine, major parts of which is Indian.

Now you link me to news articles.

 

[sohan]

*major foreign part.

 

[Martian2]

Well I've provided facts that the only major part in the Arjun is the engine, major parts of which is Indian.

Now you link me to news articles.

One month ago, on April 19, 2010, Hindustan Times syndication wrote: "Arjun has a high amount of import content and it is hardly indigenous."

Two months ago, on March 2, 2010, India's MSN stated: "the fact that the arjun tank is mostly built of imported parts."

In your mind, you can believe whatever you want.

Reference:

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Arjun+versus+T-90+a+unique+trial.-a0224308907

http://news.in.msn.com/internalsecurity/features/article.aspx?cp-documentid=3648438

 

[Speeder 2]

Well I've provided facts that the only major part in the Arjun is the engine, major parts of which is Indian.

Now you link me to news articles.

How you define "major parts" ?

If the ONLY major part of arjun were the engine as you claimed, then what makes a tank different from a motocycle ?

Obviously, there're MORE major parts of a tank than a mere engine.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

speeder wat abt so called indegenous HAL Druv heli tht cant seal above 5000 ft?how indigenous is tht?