Reverse Engineering Is Extremely Difficult

[sohan]

The FCS and transmission which are not indigenous in the current Mark I Arjun has indigenous equivalents which will be used in further orders.

 

[Martian2]

How you define "major parts" ?

If the ONLY major part of arjun were the engine as you claimed, then what makes a tank different from a motocycle ?

Obviously, there're MORE major parts of a tank than a mere engine.

What he says isn't true. The gun barrel is still being imported and probably all of the other parts, except for the tank tracks. It was just getting ridiculous that the guy wouldn't even accept the truth from Hindustan Times and India's MSN from the past two months.

I was trying to bail out of an endless merry-go-round. Next time, I'm just going to ignore any post that I consider unreasonable from an Indian. It's crazy the amount of time that I have to spend to defend an obvious truth. Even the major Indian press don't deny that the Arjun is "hardly indigenous."

I prefer to keep the facts clear in threads that I start. However, I realize that it is no longer possible. I create these threads to share information, not to engage in nationalistic chest-beating of indigenous weapons. The only reason that I insisted that the Arjun isn't indigenous is because it isn't on both quantitative and qualitative grounds. Both Hindustan Times and India MSN agree with me. However, I am not willing to argue the point ad infinitum.

 

[sohan]

speeder wat abt so called indegenous HAL Druv heli tht cant seal above 5000 ft?how indigenous is tht?

Well this is obviously what you want me to say:

China and Pakistan are almighty inseparable friends who's weapons are 100% indigenous and superior to everything in Indias arsenal.

Nothing else will satisfy you.

 

[sohan]

Linky to prove that the gun barrel is foreign?

The other parts have Indian equivalents.

 

[Speeder 2]

What Martian 2 quoted " engine, transmission, gun barrel, tracks, and fire control system " as major parts of a tank is very reasonable. Those items are pretty much essential to make "a moving vehicle that can fire" - namely a tank, which is different from a 2- wheel civilian motocycle.

One must therefore reasonablely ask that If India imports all these aforementioned major stuffs that basicly define a tank, what India makes at home then? nails, paint, ammo shells and driver seat?

If being able to produce nails, paint and driver seat alike can be defined as indigenous, then India must be indigenous in producing Ferrari as well, because you pretty much can import from Italy the rest of the stuffs that define a Ferrari except nails, paint and the driver seat that made at hime in India.

One must be insane to still call arjun "indigenous" at this point, you bet!

 

[sohan]

If Germany and Israel ceased to exist, the only part of the Arjun that we would miss is some parts of the engine. Not even the whole engine.

 

[sohan]

Arguing with you people is more painful and less productive than banging your own head against the wall.

 

[IndianArmy]

Yes, I tried it on my Scooter, but there were a lot spare parts when I tried to re fix it... Dunno why...

 

[Speeder 2]

If Germany and Israel ceased to exist, the only part of the Arjun that we would miss is some parts of the engine. Not even the whole engine.

If Germany and Isreal ceased to exist, what would arjun look like? - a good question!


It can't move properly: without tracks;

It can't even start properly: without a suitable engine/transmissions;

It can't shoot properly: with a decent gun barrel;

If it can somehow manage to shoot, then it must shoot aimlessly:without decent fire control kits.


What would arjun look like then?

A big pile of idle and wasted iron bloc, with paint, nails and a driver seat.

 

[noksss]

One month ago, on April 19, 2010, Hindustan Times syndication wrote: "Arjun has a high amount of import content and it is hardly indigenous."

Two months ago, on March 2, 2010, India's MSN stated: "the fact that the arjun tank is mostly built of imported parts."

In your mind, you can believe whatever you want.

Reference:

Arjun versus T-90 a unique trial. - Free Online Library

Arjun vs T 90: Tank trials to kick off next month - 1 -  2010: Defence & Internal Security Special on MSN India

Martian still u have not answered my question .I dont want any 2 page explanation from u giving the criteria to call a componenet indigineous .I am asking again when india started producing the components which are currently imported from germany then Arjun is indigineous else if it's components is sourced then It's not indigineous .Is this what are u trying to say .Please dont give a 1 page explanation try to answer in a simple way else lets stop this argument

 

[sohan]

If Germany and Isreal ceased to exist, what would arjun look like? - a good question!


It can't move properly: without tracks;

It can't even start properly: without a suitable engine/transmissions;

It can't shoot properly: with a decent gun barrel;

If it can somehow manage to shoot, then it must shoot aimlessly:without decent fire control kits.


What would arjun look like then?

A big pile of idle and wasted iron bloc, with paint, nails and a driver seat.

OH FOR FUCKS SAKE

AN INDIGENOUS FIRE CONTROLS SYSTEM HAS BEEN DEVELOPED
SINCE WHEN WAS THE GUN BARREL FOREIGN?
THE TRACKS ARE INDIGENOUS

WHAT THE ******* ****?

 

[Martian2]

If Germany and Isreal ceased to exist, what would arjun look like? - a good question!


It can't move properly: without tracks;

It can't even start properly: without a suitable engine/transmissions;

It can't shoot properly: with a decent gun barrel;

If it can somehow manage to shoot, then it must shoot aimlessly:without decent fire control kits.


What would arjun look like then?

A big pile of idle and wasted iron bloc, with paint, nails and a driver seat.

This is what I believe that is happening. From Wikipedia, we know:

"DRDO received major design assistance from Krauss Maffei, the developer of the German Leopard 2 tank, and several other German firms. As a result, Arjun's design is very similar to that of Leopard 2A4 tank.[10] 50% of the tank's components are imported, which include the engine, transmission, gun barrel, tracks, and fire control system.[11]"

We also know that India wants transfer-of-technology (i.e. ToT) from Russia on the T-90. India wants ToT because, at this time, they lack the underlying understanding and technology for advanced tank design and manufacturing technology. India cannot reverse-engineer the T-90.

And yet, why is India progressing rapidly in the indigenous replacement (e.g. apparent reverse-engineering) of the foreign components for the Arjun tank? DRDO has stated that foreign components will be only 30% after the production of the 500th Arjun tank.

The most reasonable explanation is that Germany's "Krauss Maffei, the developer of the German Leopard 2 tank, and several other German firms" are quietly licensing the production technology in stages for the Arjun tank to DRDO and Indian subcontractors.

The Arjun tank is very similar to the German Leopard 2. The tank technology that "Krauss Maffei...and several other German firms" are licensing to DRDO are specific to the Arjun. Hence, the need for transfer-of-technology from Russia to independently manufacture the T-90 in India.

Can I prove that DRDO has a contractual licensing agreement with "Krauss Maffei...and several other German firms"? No, only DRDO and Krauss Maffei have the contracts to prove it. In my view, DRDO claims credit for indigenous innovation and component replacement for the Arjun tank and Krauss Maffei is paid a lot of money to license/transfer the technology and keep quiet.

Why do I believe that DRDO is licensing German technology and not reverse-engineering the critical and complex components? If DRDO could reverse-engineer an Arjun tank then they should be able to reverse-engineer a T-90. The Arjun and T-90 are both tanks. The need for ToT for the Russian T-90 strongly indicates that DRDO does not possess reverse-engineering/reinvention skills.

The Arjun prototypes started with 70% foreign content. The first batch of 124 Arjun tanks have 60% foreign content. Current Arjun tanks have 50% foreign content. DRDO has already announced to the world that foreign content will drop to 30% after the 500th Arjun tank is produced. That is an incredible pace of technological advancement to move from 70% to 30% in such a short time of a few years.

However, this incredible pace of Indian military technological advancement makes no sense. A modern tank is a far more complex and expensive piece of military hardware than a simple howitzer. How do you explain that DRDO can soon manufacture 70% of an advanced Leopard 2-class tank and yet, can't build a simple howitzer?

The only reasonable answer is that DRDO is licensing the Arjun's technology from Germany. In other words, DRDO is cheating. There is no difference between a fully-licensed production of an Arjun/Leopard 2 and a fully-licensed production of the Russian T-90. The only marketing difference is that DRDO is claiming indigenous innovation and production, but it's actually a licensing deal for Germany's Leopard 2/Arjun tank.

Singapore gun arrives today; stage set for artillery trials

"Singapore gun arrives today; stage set for artillery trials
Ajai Shukla / New Delhi April 19, 2010, 0:43 IST
...
This gun, the Indian Field Howitzer-2000 (IFH-2000), developed by Singapore Technologies Kinetics, or STK, is competing for the Indian tender with British company BAE Systems’ FH-77B-05, a derivative of the controversial and respected Bofors gun. The lower-profile IFH-2000 is the world’s first 155mm 52-calibre howitzer, which the Singapore Armed Forces have used for over a decade."

 

[Martian2]

Martian still u have not answered my question .I dont want any 2 page explanation from u giving the criteria to call a componenet indigineous .I am asking again when india started producing the components which are currently imported from germany then Arjun is indigineous else if it's components is sourced then It's not indigineous .Is this what are u trying to say .Please dont give a 1 page explanation try to answer in a simple way else lets stop this argument

See post #89.

 

[Martian2]

Using Google in the United States, there is very little information available about the status of the component content in the Arjun tank. I cannot find a breakdown of the component parts and the percentage of foreign content from any DRDO website.

If you Indians want a breakdown of the component parts and foreign content then I suggest that you search India's internet or call DRDO and ask them to email the information to you.

Based on published information, the following facts are known about the percentage of foreign content in the Arjun tank.

1) The Arjun tank prototypes have 70% foreign content.

2) The first batch of 124 Arjun tanks have 60% foreign content.

3) Wikipedia states that the foreign content in currently-manufactured Arjun tanks is 50%.

4) DRDO has publicly stated that the foreign content should drop to 30% after the 500th Arjun tank is produced.

As of March and April 2010, India's Hindustan Times and MSN have both declared the Arjun tank as being "hardly indigenous" and comprised of foreign imports.

The bottom line is that the Arjun tank was and still is not indigenous. If you disagree, I suggest that you call Hindustan Times and India's MSN and argue with them. They're the ones that published their non-indigenous conclusions for millions of people to see.

 

[sohan]

I give up, I'm off to slit my wrists.