Replacement of Pakistan Army's G-3 Rifles.

[TaimiKhan]

well, you yourself have supported what i am stating!

despite all the pros and cons of the 7.62, it seems that it have positives then negatives. better punch, no upgradaion required etc
i guess we are both advocating the same platform the HK471 but with different statements . .

Nops buddy, i am vouching for the Russian 7.62*39mm caliber to be mated with a new rifle, not the NATO 7.62*51mm round.

HK-417 is the 7.62*51mm caliber, which again gives us a 20 round magazine compared to what others hold, that is the 30 round. It has again high recoil.

So, why not 7.62*39mm mated with a HK-417 design. Keep the 7.62*51mm for sniper rifle and may be a SAW system like the M249.

 

[DARKY]

well, you yourself have supported what i am stating!

despite all the pros and cons of the 7.62, it seems that it have positives then negatives. better punch, no upgradaion required etc
i guess we are both advocating the same platform the HK471 but with different statements . .

Have you fired a 7.62mm NATO from an assault rifle ??...... I have and take my word If you are new you'll not forget the first night after that training where they make you fire while standing...... forget automating firing of a G3...... not a single round will hit a target after 3-4 rounds in automatic fire..... and it would be hard time controlling the muzzle rise..... If you are targeting a far off target. I have seen the video of a well built Pakistani soldier firing a G3 in automatic mode and it could be clearly seen he could not fire more than 3-4 round in any of his attempts...... on top of that he had a hard time controling the mussle rise as he was moving on his foot..... If there any professional around here they could explain you better about the flaws the automatic fire of 7.62x51mm presents in such situations...... how can a solder fire accurately enough while on charge with his G3.... while he can't do that in simple motion...... not to mention that in such situations accurate automatic fire is highly important...... and G3 jams in low temperatures below 5 degrees frequently after firing 5-6 rounds in semi-automatic mode even.

 

[DARKY]

Its a very cost intensive adventure to change the weapon firing platform as well as the ammo for it.

Giving it to police or para military forces is not an easy task nor are they they gonna be able to fire all these rounds. Plus the commonality feature of having one round and one weapon platform would be lost, logistical nightmare it would create.

Simple answer is, mate something new with the 7.62*39mm round and make it a standard among the armed forces, para military forces as well a police, it will reduce costs and logistical problems.

What I was trying to say was leaving 7.62x51mm assault rifles to the police and Paramilitary to use If there is a need to change the rounds..... the paramilitaries like Rangers can do fine with such a rifle guarding border areas aswell as in anti insurgency operations in Countryside areas.

India switched to 5.56mm during Kargil war there were problems faced but it was done effectively, not to mention that the economy was on the verge of financially being bankrupted at those times.
So I don't see the excuse why can't Pakistan atleast on economical terms during peace times.

7.62x39mm was made to make the automatic firing of 7.62mm rounds comfortable but that shorter bullet doesn't spin much inside a 14" barrel hence aerodynamically unstable in a long range flight If I am not wrong it spins 360degrees in every 9'' hence it tumbles and loses the power of cover penetration and the penetration of protective material/bullet proof jackets..... a steel tip bullet would do but that would wear off the grooves more quickly hence frequent chaining required for accurate enough firing at longer ranges..... plus the spin problem would always remain.

There has been some reason that Russians brought AK-74 in their inventory and Chinese replaced their Type 56 rifles.

I won't advocate any round here but every aspect must be looked upon carefully before suggesting any big change.

 

[Last Hope]

Alright guy. As I said. Pakistan is changing it and I am the source.


Its the same caliber, for two reasons.

1)The stock of bullets and magazines we have, what will do about it?
2) 7.62 is Instant kill.

 

[asad71]

1. Every Poor Bloody Infantryman (PBI) curses the load he carries after a while. So everyone is looking for something light.

2. As stated above 7.62 is instant kill. This is good for COIN ops. A heavier bullet also is gets less deflection travelling through plants, foliage, rain, snow or wind.

3. Paratroopers or SF prefer the lighter 5.68. But they too would need the heavier 7.62 on certain occasions.

 

[Arsalan]

Nops buddy, i am vouching for the Russian 7.62*39mm caliber to be mated with a new rifle, not the NATO 7.62*51mm round.

HK-417 is the 7.62*51mm caliber, which again gives us a 20 round magazine compared to what others hold, that is the 30 round. It has again high recoil.

So, why not 7.62*39mm mated with a HK-417 design. Keep the 7.62*51mm for sniper rifle and may be a SAW system like the M249.

all right, now i got your point, tell you what, i find it to be a very interesting one!!!
you are asking to mate different rounds/calibers to create a hybrid with optimum fire power, lesser recoil, accuracy etc

Have you fired a 7.62mm NATO from an assault rifle? ?

have fired the Pakistan Army G-3 on a few occasions with army training exercises. the recoil is heavy.
apart from that, i think the G-3 is a very very reliable rifle and have served good for PA. i don’t think there are any problems with jamming or else that are causing PA to look out for a change!

 

[DARKY]

i don’t think there are any problems with jamming or else that are causing PA to look out for a change!

I had seen a few video on You tube where Pakistani Soldiers from NLI which participated in Kargil accused of G3 being jammed only after 5-6 rounds of semi-automatic fire on a common basis..... now the war was fought around May-June time hence the temperature would be around 10-6 degree Celsius in day and 4-0/-2 during night hence the rifle jams regularly at cold temperature..... May be that is the reason G3s are not seen in good numbers at counter insurgency and anti-terrorist operations in SWAT and FATA regions.

 

[Chogy]

Fully Automatic fire from an assault rifle is very over-rated. That is what a squad light machine gun is for. The best method is aimed semi-automatic fire from a well-trained soldier. The U.S. in fact has removed the FULL AUTO poistion on the M-4 and replaced it with BURST. Each trigger pull delivers a 3 round burst before re-setting.

Full auto empties a 30 round magazine in about 3 seconds.

 

[blain2]

G-3 is rarely fired in full auto mode in the PA due to two reasons. One is that it is too unstable in full auto due to the massive recoil and secondly, the resulting lack of accuracy means that it is a sheer waste of rounds which is a big no-no.

As far as the use of G-3 in cold weather is concerned, yes it is prone to jamming (but in extreme cold) and thus most of the troops stationed there up north use the Type 56 variants. Not that Type-56 variant cannot jam, but it is more rugged (having stated that, I must say that even with Type-56, the action and moving components have to be kept covered when possible because at least up at Siachen altitude, even the lubricants freeze).

The G-3 has been used extensively in the fight against the Taliban and at the ranges the firefights are happening and the massive 7.62 round used with the range afforded by this battlefield rifle, it has done its job well. The composition at the section/platoon level includes most members with the G-3 and some with the SMG (Type-56). Officers can carry what they like so you will see variation there.

 

[blain2]

In my own view, there will never be a perfect answer or a weapon for use within the PA. Most Armies make do with what they have as in some roles it would do just fine, in others, you make do. PA's selection of an individual weapon is no different.

The 5.56 vs. 7.62 debate has been going on for sometime now in the Army (at least for the past 15 years). I think the future will see a mix of both heavier and lighter calibers just because of the need (Force on force vs. COIN ops) to use the same troops and equipment for all roles.

 

[Jango]

Fully Automatic fire from an assault rifle is very over-rated. That is what a squad light machine gun is for. The best method is aimed semi-automatic fire from a well-trained soldier. The U.S. in fact has removed the FULL AUTO poistion on the M-4 and replaced it with BURST. Each trigger pull delivers a 3 round burst before re-setting.

Full auto empties a 30 round magazine in about 3 seconds.

Exactly. A person now going on full automatic is regarded as a goon and a madman. Accuracy and lethality with the Semi-auto mode. Labelled as E in Pak Army guns.

 

[Zabaniyah]

I know I am a noob in firearms, but isn't the 5.56 NATO round more accurate?

 

[blain2]

I know I am a noob in firearms, but isn't the 5.56 NATO round more accurate?

Accuracy is not just the function of the round itself. There are multiple factors involved in the accuracy. You need a well manufactured round, but more so than that, the rifle itself has a lot to do with this.

I am sure its mentioned on this thread, but 5.56 round usually is fired from newer weapons that afford greater velocity when a round is fired. Secondly, other logistical reasons and load bearing considerations have paved the way for the wider acceptance of 5.56mm round in the past 10 years or so.

 

[Jango]

For accuracy other conditions also come into play if the range exceeds a certain distance. Windspeed, humidity , atmospherer all play there part when range is exceeded from a certain point. And if you go to 1000 meters, then the Coriolis effect, rotation of the earth, gravity, and advanced applied ballistics come into the scenario. But the advanced is only for sniping.

 

[DARKY]

Fully Automatic fire from an assault rifle is very over-rated. That is what a squad light machine gun is for. The best method is aimed semi-automatic fire from a well-trained soldier. The U.S. in fact has removed the FULL AUTO poistion on the M-4 and replaced it with BURST. Each trigger pull delivers a 3 round burst before re-setting.

Full auto empties a 30 round magazine in about 3 seconds.

Similar switch is also available of other standard issue assault rifles like INSAS.... I have fired 3-round burst while the camp I had with Army it allows you the recovery time and 3 rounds of 5.56x45mm is enough to kill a well built person even if he is high on some Opium....... It depends on the doctrine which the army follows while the Russians prefer automatic modes the Americans prefer 3 round burst on their assault rifles..... depending on logistics, troops, environment, geography, climate etc....

The future rifles would have every thing on the plate.... semi-auto, 3 round burst, full auto.... aswell as multicalliber firing capabilities... and most of the future plans for the armies world wide have some or the other multicalliber rifle programs for their future troops.