Replacement of Pakistan Army's G-3 Rifles.

[muse]

So what kinds of specs would you like to see , the must have ,for a new main infantry weapon for the Pakistan army?

 

[fatman17]

can anyone tell me by what date the G-3 was inducted in to Pak Army ? Did it replace the .303 or the American M-1 Garand ?

i dont have the exact date but mid 70's comes to mind.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

When a poster writes a comment that the americans are going 5.56 way the other country goes that wa----then the poster is not familiar with the matter of war---he is just posting the information he has gathered from here or there.

In our arena---we often or all the time come across an enemy high on opium / hash----plus he has a religioius fervor that keeps him going----on a target like that---the 5.56 doesnot even leave a noticeable impact unless it is a head shot----secondly---in this arena the shots are taken at a longer range----we are not in a flatland----this is mountain and valley warfare-----with a 5.56 shot, the enemy keeps on coming---with a .308 or the ak 47 shot---you put the enemy down..

The 200 yds range was in plains and flatlands----not in this battle arena---.

 

[fatman17]

So what kinds of specs would you like to see , the must have ,for a new main infantry weapon for the Pakistan army?

PA is generally trained for conventional war - classic pitched battles from bunkers / ditches / foxholes. in such circumstances a 7.62mm would be preffered.

for COIN/ant-terror/close combat, a 5.56mm assault rifle would be the preference. in other words 'one single standard rifle' will not suffice. and that is why we already see a trend towards a mix of 7.62/5.56mm weapons.

PA has invested / collaborated with Heckler & Koch and it would be logical to upgrade the factory production lines to manufacture a new H&K rifle and assault SMG.

other options could be the austrian and belgian which also make good dependable rifles/SMG's. the US is out.

 

[TaimiKhan]

So what kinds of specs would you like to see , the must have ,for a new main infantry weapon for the Pakistan army?

Something which is both in hot and cold conditions. Something which can work in plains of punjab, deserts of punjab and sindh and at high altitudes of Kashmir, Norther Areas and Siachen.

Something which has a good punching power, something which can be different roles with minimal changes.

My choice would be the HK-417.

1. 7.62*51mm caliber, thus we don't need to change the infrastructure for manufacturing bullets and 7.62*51mm is a deadly round. Cost benefit.

2. G-3s magazine are interchangeable with HK-417, thus no need to replace such large number of magazines. Another cost benefit.

3. HK-417 comes in many variants with different barrel lengths, from an assault rifle to a sniper rifle to close combat compound clearing version. Another benefit, no need for getting different rifles for different reasons, one rifle can do the job. thus ease of maintenance and logistical simplicity.

I say, we look into this rifle and if it meets all the requirements, we should get it, its an awesome rifle.

It would not be as costly as changing the whole caliber which would result in whole infrastructure to be changed.

The HK-417 shorter version for close quarter combat (if required)

Sniper Version:

 

[Malik Usman]

The G3 is only purpose is to kill the enemy not to entertain the enemy.

 

[rockstarIN]

^^^

The main disadvantage would be the weight of the cartridge.

7.62×51mm = 9.7 g (150 gr) FMJ, 1.3 g (174 gr) M118

5.56×45mm = 4 g (62 gr) SS109 FMJBT, 4.1 g (63 gr) DM11 FMJBT

 

[TaimiKhan]

^^^

The main disadvantage would be the weight of the cartridge.

7.62×51mm = 9.7 g (150 gr) FMJ, 1.3 g (174 gr) M118

5.56×45mm = 4 g (62 gr) SS109 FMJBT, 4.1 g (63 gr) DM11 FMJBT

But the benefit outsmarts the weight issue.

Its a very deadly round with long range engagement ability, while 5.56*45mm lacks in these categories.

 

[Juice]

Hi,

When a poster writes a comment that the americans are going 5.56 way the other country goes that wa----then the poster is not familiar with the matter of war---he is just posting the information he has gathered from here or there.

In our arena---we often or all the time come across an enemy high on opium / hash----plus he has a religioius fervor that keeps him going----on a target like that---the 5.56 doesnot even leave a noticeable impact unless it is a head shot----secondly---in this arena the shots are taken at a longer range----we are not in a flatland----this is mountain and valley warfare-----with a 5.56 shot, the enemy keeps on coming---with a .308 or the ak 47 shot---you put the enemy down..

The 200 yds range was in plains and flatlands----not in this battle arena---.

This is correct, what is good in one arena is not good in another. What is needed is two main rifles, the terrain determines what mix is in the squad.

 

[Icarus]

Please dont comment with that propagandic attitude saying its was made by the 'Finest' metal or its made so perfect. We all know its a crappy rifle and its not competeable against even the jamming M16 (With 7.62mm). Complains are coming from turkish soldiers all the time because it has difficulties with the weapons in the mountains. Sure there are PAF soldiers that complain to. Watch any video of the G3 and you notice its jammes everytime,
And BTW i said nothing about replacing them with assault rifles, The Mehmetcik 1 and HK417 are battle rifles with 7.62mm same as G3 but they have superior machenism. The G3 is a weak rifle in the battle duo its short range even when it has a 7.62mm Cartridge.

And like I said before, turkish soldiers may have problems with them during training however, our soldiers have had no problems with them during the course of Ops in FATA. In a live fire exercise where 24 men fires over 2400 rounds from 12 G-3s, only one jam occured. I would say that's acceptable. G-3 has been in service since the late 60s, i believe and over the time has gone through numerous upgrades and tweaks. It is a constant phase of development which ensures that these SAs are at their 100%. That's effective range, not the range of the weapon. Effective range for G-3 is about 380m I believe and that too can be increased by firing while sitting or slapping on a telescope, and voila ! Your g-3 now has an effective range of over 1.2Km !

 

[Areesh]

But the benefit outsmarts the weight issue.

Its a very deadly round with long range engagement ability, while 5.56*45mm lacks in these categories.

So unlike G-3 this gun isn't going to jam at high altitudes??? Looks like a good replacement.

 

[Icarus]

Just a side note........... AKs are almost always carried by the bad guys...
Wont carrying the Kalashnikov make us even more evil in the eyes of the world ?

The AK along with it's variants are the most common found SAs in the world. That includes military arsenals.

 

[Xeric]

Hi,

When a poster writes a comment that the americans are going 5.56 way the other country goes that wa----then the poster is not familiar with the matter of war---he is just posting the information he has gathered from here or there.

In our arena---we often or all the time come across an enemy high on opium / hash----plus he has a religioius fervor that keeps him going----on a target like that---the 5.56 doesnot even leave a noticeable impact unless it is a head shot----secondly---in this arena the shots are taken at a longer range----we are not in a flatland----this is mountain and valley warfare-----with a 5.56 shot, the enemy keeps on coming---with a .308 or the ak 47 shot---you put the enemy down..

The 200 yds range was in plains and flatlands----not in this battle arena---.

What did you take in breakfast today?

 

[Icarus]

Something which is both in hot and cold conditions. Something which can work in plains of punjab, deserts of punjab and sindh and at high altitudes of Kashmir, Norther Areas and Siachen.

Something which has a good punching power, something which can be different roles with minimal changes.

My choice would be the HK-417.

1. 7.62*51mm caliber, thus we don't need to change the infrastructure for manufacturing bullets and 7.62*51mm is a deadly round. Cost benefit.

2. G-3s magazine are interchangeable with HK-417, thus no need to replace such large number of magazines. Another cost benefit.

3. HK-417 comes in many variants with different barrel lengths, from an assault rifle to a sniper rifle to close combat compound clearing version. Another benefit, no need for getting different rifles for different reasons, one rifle can do the job. thus ease of maintenance and logistical simplicity.

I say, we look into this rifle and if it meets all the requirements, we should get it, its an awesome rifle.

It would not be as costly as changing the whole caliber which would result in whole infrastructure to be changed.

The HK-417 shorter version for close quarter combat (if required)

Sniper Version:

Very detailed and well researched analysis however the fact of the matter remains that the HK-417 is a lot more complex than the G-3. Upgrading our facilities to being able to produce the HK-417 will require significant amount of money which we simply do not have at the moment. Secondly, there are over well over 1.5 million G-3s in service in Pakistan with the Army/Rangers/FC/Police/ANF replacing all of them will easily take over a decade, which means that for ten years our forces will have two separate standard assault rifles which results in issues relating to repair and parts production. To quicken the replacement process, we will have to buy possibly a couple of thousand to a few hundred thousand from HK itself. Which results in more expenditure.

 

[Icarus]

So unlike G-3 this gun isn't going to jam at high altitudes??? Looks like a good replacement.

Depends on what you mean when you say "High Altitude", if it's Siachen then rest assured, every gun jams at Siachen. Even the Indian's INSAS jammed and their polymer magazines split which would tear completely from the stress of firing within 5 rounds.