Religions must be Chinese in orientation: official

[313ghazi]

I do NOT care how you perceive the truth i.e Islam. I am NOT here to appease the chinese by compromising with my religion. Just because you perceive it to be bad because it goes against your materialist interest does NOT make it bad.

Do you realise they don't care what you think. They care only about what they think and want to implement what they think in their own country, upon their own people.

 

[Luffy 500]

So long story short you think "Chinese orientation" translates to..

"what they actually mean is that Muslim must give up their religion are assimilate into the majority communist party sanctioned han-chinese culture."

There's nothing to think. The chinese CCP and similar states have proven it by their actions.

 

[MultaniGuy]

WHY? Because CCP is too afraid of loosing control of their masses? Are Muslims too independent and free minded from the tyrannical shackles of CCP? CCP should understand by now that Islam is NOT a religion but its a way of life ordained by the Creator of everything that exists including the chinese people & CCP. They can not take the chinese (muslim & non-muslim) away from the natural state Allah (swt) created humans on.






Sorry brother. That's NOT the way of our beloved Prophet (saw) and his companions. WHat happened to the lofty islamic injunction on the believers to Enjoin what is good and forbid what is evil? WHat about the least level of imaan of denouncing evil by heart if not by action of the tongue? Just know that if the noble companions of the prophet (saw) and their subsequent generation of muslims had this attitude of "their country their choice" - none of us would have been muslim and the world would have remained in the darkness of polytheism without the guidance and light of Islam.

Are you an Egyptian by the way? What is the way of our Prophet Muhammad (saw)? This is something I could be unaware of.

Do you see Chinese people commenting on Pakistan's internal affairs or any other Muslim country's internal affairs?

Whatever happens in China, is their internal affairs.

I could be saying something wrong, but when was the last time China ever questioned Pakistan's or Saudi Arabia's internal affairs?

 

[beijingwalker]

I do NOT care how you perceive the truth i.e Islam. I am NOT here to appease the chinese by compromising with my religion. Just because you perceive it to be bad because it goes against your materialist interest does NOT make it bad.

Good , no one is here to appease anyone, just speak out your mind out and loud, that helps us know the ground facts better.

 

[Cherokee]

Are you an Egyptian by the way?

Luffy is Bangladeshi .

 

[MultaniGuy]

There's nothing to think. The chinese CCP and similar states have proven it by their actions.

I do enjoy your posts, but how are we doing something wrong?

What happens in China is China's internal affairs.

Who are we to dictate to them?

Same goes for India's beef ban

 

[313ghazi]

There's nothing to think. The chinese CCP and similar states have proven it by their actions.

ok.

What do you plan to do about it?
What do you think anyone else should do about it?
What would be the end goal of these actions?

 

[Luffy 500]

Are you an Egyptian by the way? What is the way of our Prophet Muhammad (saw)? This is something I could be unaware of.

Do you see Chinese people commenting on Pakistan's internal affairs or any other Muslim country's internal affairs?

Whatever happens in China, is their internal affairs.

I could be saying something wrong, but when was the last time China ever questioned Pakistan's or Saudi Arabia's internal affairs?

Brother with all due respect do you come here taking briefing from PAK foreign ministry about what to say and not to say in public. Is there any such requirement in forum rules. Is there even a thing as internal matter in discourse between ordinary citizens in social media?

And I am NOT an egyptian. I am a bangladeshi. But why should that even matter I fail to understand.

 

[Cherokee]

I do enjoy your posts, but how are we doing something wrong?

What happens in China is China's internal affairs.

Who are we to dictate to them?

Same goes for India's beef ban

India's beef ban is wrong on many levels but that's a conversation for a different thread.

 

[Hamza913]

I recall a Pakistani member calling us "worse than Indians" (the comment was deleted). Personally i don't view Indians negatively as people but India sure is a strategic competitor in the region to both Pakistan and China. Some in the Pakistani military views India as an existential threat and the animosity between Pakistan and India is definitely strong. Now with the sudden comment of Chinese or China is worse, it must imply some deep brewing discontent with China that got triggered. We can talk about it, was it because you thought China could have and should be ideologically aligned with Pakistan beyond just politics? Want China to be more alike to your tastes? Hiding a viewpoint wont help.

I feel strongly in helping fellow members understand China since it will be ever more present. It be in your interest to understand whether one feels comfortable or not. I like to present bite sized anecdotes to help digestion:
John Mearsheimer a famous geostrategist from the US often talks about China and his interaction with his Chinese strategist counterparts in China. His distinct remark is that he felt at home because "everyone is a realist there" and while back in Washington John is out of place because realists are a rare species in DC. I can tell you that most Chinese people are similar. We don't have the baggage of White guilt, imperialism of the third world, etc. We see things without the rose tinted glass of Political Correctness. In our real strategic discussions there is none of that political correctness that plagues the west, they don't try to be mean or intentionally hurtful, just realism.

Two main factors play into this mentality: History and Educational background.
1. Chinese history is long we see the rise and fall of empires and how it happened in detail, we can see patterns in human behaviour that haven't changed through the millennia. We critique our own history and reflect upon our historical hubris and downfalls, what made China work and what didn't and why it did or didn't. Its not a matter of feelings, had feelings ran China it would have collapsed. 5000 years of rise and fall has created a culture that values realism over ideology because Chinese civilisation have faced the edge of death many times, only realism pulled us out of the abyss.
2. Vast majority of Chinese leaders and strategists are physicists, doctors, scientists, computer science, mechanical engineers, xijinping is an chemical engineer, hujintao is a hydraulic engineer, jiangzemin a electrical engineer, not lawyers, psychologists, sociology, and bureaucrats like in the West. Scientists and engineers think in a physics based framework and their path to the truth is the scientific method. Quite frankly China is a relatively resource poor country, if its run by bureaucrats like in the west without technical expertise it would have collapsed long ago. The educational background might explain why some Chinese methods seem straightforward but a bit awkward to the feelings.


I'm I reading this right? Are you thinking of joining ISIS to take back Raqqa? Im not sure if thats going to solve any problems, I admire the bravery but one airstrike and you are cannon fodder.
How old are you? I am curious, i feel like you are a hot blooded young man.

If this is a misunderstanding I sincerely apologize

Chinese dont view Pakistan negatively (negatively is a feeling, not a concrete answer)but we are realistic about it. Just because we are not negative doesn't mean we think everything about pakistan is perfect, we don't have rose tinted glasses. The world is more complex then positive/negative, good/bad. Chinese think Pakistan is less safe then China and that is backed by evidence, does that mean Chinese hate Pakistan?No.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
Does Pakistan have a problem with terrorism? Yes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_terrorist_incidents_by_country
These are real issues and just because Pakistan has does doesn't mean China hates Pakistan.


China is not against Islam China is just cautious of all outside forces that can destabilize China. Please read and follow my posts if you are curious.


So you want a trade? you can be racist to me all you want because thats your true character, be free and express yourself but I'm not going to attack your faith. Your faith is your own how can I possibly take that away from you. Why are you putting the stability of your faith upon others?

I don't support ISIS, as my post clearly states, they are doing things which are forbidden Islam so I will not join them. Even if they magically ended being the saviours of humanity, I still don't have the capacity to join them, I'm stuck here for several reasons.

 

[Stuttgart001]

lindly believe in "deng-xio ping theory or Xi-jingping thought" is a threat to the CCP. A believing muslim will naturally attract attention of his non-muslim colleagues and naturally influence them in their dress code, eating behavior, public discourse etc etc. Islamic injunctions about attitude and behavior directly effects economics, society and state power structure. The pagan meccans did NOT start persecuting Muslims until it became clear to them that what our beloved prophet Muhammad (saw) was calling people to would destroy the very structure their pagan society was based on - the way they perceive good & evil, eating, dressing,marriage, social discourse, institution of slavery, commerce and trade and the ultimately power of the elites.

come on are you seriously not seeing the implicit message of CCP in this? Its obvious What they mean by chinese orientation. It has been obvious since the advent of one party tyrany known as communism over the last 100 years. The chinese already persecute fundamental & basic expression of Islam by Uighur Muslims under teh guise of promoting chinese culture & socialist values. The sovients did that for 100 years - banning religion and slaughtering Muslims for practicing Islam. The central asian republics which inherited that one-party fascist model are still Draconian anti-islamic states. Mao slaughtered Muslims and people of other faiths just because of their religion.

Anti-islam and anti-religion is what the ideology of the CCP is. You have to realize that one-party states want to control the minutest aspects of their citizen's private lives otherwise they don't feel secure in their power over the state. WHen they say muslim must adopt "socialist core values" and "chinese values", what they actually mean is that Muslim must give up their religion are assimilate into the majority communist party sanctioned han-chinese culture. Its a one party state that fears religious and cultural minorities as a threat to its state power and wants a homogenized cultural outlook that everyone must subscribe to in public & private life. For the CCP if you are taking your morality from sources NOT sanctioned by the ccp, then your are a threat to the state.

A Muslim women in veil/hijab raising ardent believers who do NOT blindly believe in "deng-xio ping theory or Xi-jingping thought" is a threat to the CCP. A believing muslim will naturally attract attention of his non-muslim colleagues and naturally influence them in their dress code, eating behavior, public discourse etc etc. Islamic injunctions about attitude and behavior directly effects economics, society and state power structure. The pagan meccans did NOT start persecuting Muslims until it became clear to them that what our beloved prophet Muhammad (saw) was calling people to would destroy the very structure their pagan society was based on - the way they perceive good & evil, eating, dressing,marriage, social discourse, institution of slavery, commerce and trade and the ultimately power of the elites.

You also have to note & realize that Islam supersedes cultural norms. Muslims are NOT duty bound to follow norms of prevailing society and culture if it come into conflict with Islam. Calling muslims to unconditionally adopt arbitrary & ambiguous chinese values is foolhardy, impractical and most importantly tyrannical.

Also CCP do NOT represent chinese culture. They have destroyed chinese culture and arts over the last 70 years. What they have in the name of culture is blatant western hedonism and social bankruptcy.

You kind of know little about the history of China.
Actually, whether CCP or whatever party rules China , none of any religion could be the mainstream ideology of China. Before CCP' rule, the conflicts between Chinese non-muslim and Chinese muslim did exist.
If KMP or an emperor ruled China mainland today, i could guarantee that there would be no substantial difference about religious policy from that it is now.
It is the thousands of years tradition.
By the by, Chinese do not think they lived in the darkness without the guidance of prophet.
So just mind your own business, and leave others along.

 

[Hamza913]

Our goverment is doing their best to prevent China becoming a religious country.


Simple question my friend, can a non-Muslim Chinese male marry a Muslim Chinese female, without converting to Muslim?

For me, Islam is more a law than just a religion.

Still remember how India and Pakistan break apart? No offend, just telling he facts.

A non Muslim man can't marry a Muslim women, men tend to dominate the family scene. This situation makes it quite possible the kids will end up as non Muslim, if the father wills it since he has the power in this situation.

However, a Muslim man can marry a non Muslim women, because he can ensure the kids will become Muslim. However, even in this case, the religion of the women must be similar to that of Islam, so only Jewish and Christian women can be married.

Forcing upon religions on others is very wrong, we shall have religious freedom. Goverment shall not openly support any religion, but to respect the different believers and Atheists and put them under the protections of Constitutions.

For example if thng turns into like this: 1/3rds of the Chinese population are Muslim, 1/3rds are Christians, and 1/3rds are Buddhists and Atheist. The society will split as each of these believers are in numbers. I think Buddhism is not just a religion in China, it's part of our Culture and philosophy.

Your government are forcing people to accept their beliefs. You are banning people in Xinjiang from naming their kids Muhammad, and taking away their Quran's.

That's oppression and completely unjustified.

 

[mike2000 is back]

When some muslims within or outside of China hear those words they are fooled by the rage they feel inside and compelled to do acts of violence because they feel like their being and identity is under attack when they had not even experience real oppression. Their perception is important. You think the Chinese state will not do anything about that? Does my Muslim friends outside of china feel any sympathy towards my Hui friends who are being killed and discriminated by some Uyghurs (Most Uyghurs are good people)? Or do you feel Hui are just Chinese and support Uyghurs to spite China? This is a two way street. its just scratching the surface.
Personally I do not want to see that

True, but that's how it has been for decades now. Foreign powers will also use the religious card to further their interests and these islamists/religious groups/militias will also seek any power/country who can help them reach their goals. Same reason the Uygurs/East Turkestan reached out to the soviets for help to establish their state!/reach their goals, same way many `islamic' countries today have western powers or Russia as their main military ally . So I agree with you that such organised religion often become political.

 

[Hamza913]

True. However it was mostly backed/supported and instigated by the Soviet Russia against the KMT(Chinese nationalist government), since Stalin wanted to reassert Soviet influence in the region like he already did in Manchuria/North East China.


I'm afraid that will be interpreted by many Muslims as anti-Islam, and the country might suffer consequences for such a policy.
Moreover , i don't see anything wrong with Chinese women wearing headscarves and Chinese Muslim men keeping beards. A full scale veil that covers the entire body from head to toes like the Burqa, yes i agree it should be banned totally(even some Muslim countries banned it) since as far as i know it's not even in the Quran so its not a religious attire just a cultural one originating from Iran if i'm not mistaken.


Actually the Pakistani member is right to some extent, Some Muslims in the middle east and even South Asia(Pakistan , Bangladesh etc) view themselves as Muslims first before their country. You can't blame them since for them Islam transcends nationality and thus rejects nationalism. The Islamic ideology is not compatible with any other ideology on the question of sovereignty over the private and social life of Muslims. A Muslim cannot at the same time be a Muslim and a polytheist, or a Muslim and communist(CCP/Soviet Union) . So in Islam, there is no room for one to be a loyal and genuine nationalist. It is a question of identity, and one negates the other.
In fact from what i have heard/red Islam has explicitly rejects the basis of nationalism, and states that language, colour and race are no criteria for unity and privilege. The only criteria are belief and virtue. So a common ideology is the basis of the unity of the Islamic ummah, not race, country, language or even culture.
This makes Islam and nationalism incompatible, since if we look at it closely, the goal of nationalism is to create national units, whereas the goal of Islam is universal unity. To nationalism what matters the most is loyalty and attachment to the homeland, whereas to Islam, it is God and religion. Nationalism gives authenticity to geographical boundaries and racial distinctions, whereas Islam negates them. Nationalism inclines to limitation and race, but Islam assumes a universal outlook. Additionally, Nationalism attaches value only to the historical traditions, culture, civilization, ideas and historical figures of its own nation, but Islam's vision goes beyond the frontier, race, tribe and nation. For example Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Ali etc are considered as belonging to all mankind not a nation/country. Islam(just like a few other religion) wishes all nations to regard the Quran as their Book, and true leaders of Islam as their leaders (mankinds).

So this is the part where both starts having conflicting views and as such this might create issues between some real practicing muslims and the state(especially if that state is not islamic or has laws that some muslims view as going against their religion and beliefs). So if a Muslim was to really follow his religion by the word, it might be difficult for him not to go against the government depending on their policies/laws.

However , its good that the vast majority of muslims (and even other religions) are adapting to a changing world, integrating into the countries they live and abiding by the laws and even being patriotic/nationalistic and showing love for their country first and foremost. We have to be realistic at times, not too superstitious.

The Burqa is Islamic in origin.

So long story short you think "Chinese orientation" translates to..

"what they actually mean is that Muslim must give up their religion are assimilate into the majority communist party sanctioned han-chinese culture."

He's not wrong.

 

[Cherokee]

The Burqa is Islamic in origin.

Short Answer: NO.