Refuting Haqqani's Op Ed on India-Pakistan Parity

[SQ8]

Bollywood films based on Pakistan linked stories are just 3 or 4 in a year

The TV industry of Pakistan MUST be producing more shows than that

They produce more shows, almost 90% of them having nothing to do with India(unless it involves some Masala Story).

 

[Stephen Cohen]

They produce more shows, almost 90% of them having nothing to do with India(unless it involves some Masala Story).

That is all fine but the popularity of Bollywood in Pakistan
is NOT hidden from ANY ONE

My statement to @farhan_9909 is valid considering his wish to kill
all people who are following India in any manner as is evident by this statement

Anyone who want Pakistan to follow india or admire anything from India for Pakistan is Wajib ul Qatal

 

[SQ8]

Well,cultural similarities doesn't mean we should follow them.We have more cultural similarities with Bangladesh and Afghanistan than we have with india.

What i want is that we should not compare Pakistan with India even if they replace America in GDP,we have our own future and within few generation,we have the possibility to become alien to each other

Incorrect, basic geography refutes you. How can a Punjabi or Sindhi have more common with a Bengali sitting some 2000km away as compared to one right across the border? The same way a Pathan may have similarities with that of Pathans in Afghanistan..but anyone else wants nothing to do with them. We speak a similar language, understand cliches and stereotypes along with common social issues that prevail in our society.

There is no identity threat from India but rather from our own failure in recognizing ours. The US and Canada are two different states, with fairly similar cultures and ideas.. yet they are happily independent and thriving. Our brainwashing is a product of a failed ideology concocted after the death of Jinnah and the rather vague statements of the two nation theory. We can continue to remain reactionaries on boths sides and decline to accept this reality and eventually nuke each other to oblivion.. or we can understand this reality of two communities requiring economic independence yet capable of recognizing what is common that can be beneficial for the both of is.

That is all fine but the popularity of Bollywood in Pakistan
is NOT hidden from ANY ONE

My statement to @farhan_9909 is valid considering his wish to kill
all people who are following India in any manner as is evident by this statement

So? What does the popularity of entertainment have to do with the popularity of a nation as a geopolitical subject in the news and TV channels?

 

[That Guy]

no one can deny the poverty and the social ills it brings but...

"Parity" here either means a conventional military equivalence, where Pakistan with it's measly budget can never hope to compare with the Indian military, not now, now in a hundred years..

or

our growing middle class with disposable income which makes India the investment destination it is today.... again, no Parity between India and it's 'dying from a jihadi cancer' western neighbour.

Pakistan has never tried to gain military parity through man power or budgeting, rather, Pakistan has been trying to do similar to what Israel is currently doing. Israel's population and military manpower is puny compared to it's regional neighbors, yet it has the technological and miltiary edge. Why is that? Simple, it's investing in R&D and keep it's military's technological edge over it's neighbors. Pakistan's ambitions are not quite as high, as Pakistan's policy makers only want to have technological parity with India, enough to deter any sort of military adventure from it's far larger neighbor.

People keep perpetuating this myth that Pakistan wants to match India 1 for 1, but that is clearly not true, history has proven that it is clearly not true. Pakistan simply wants to match or exceed India in terms of tech, which is the ultimate form of deterrent. While I don't think that is possible any longer, I do think Pakistan can match India in terms of technology enough to give India's military second thoughts about any sort of strike.

 

[gau8av]

The US and Canada are two different states, with fairly similar cultures and ideas.. yet they are happily independent and thriving.

inshallah, one day we'll get there, just don't hold your breath for now

 

[SQ8]

inshallah, one day we'll get there, just don't hold your breath for now

We will either get there or end up as South and North Korea.. however, for that to happen there has to be a Taliban Revolution which is now getting less and less likely(unless sponsored by the military).

 

[gau8av]

People keep perpetuating this myth that Pakistan wants to match India 1 for 1, but that is clearly not true, history has proven that it is clearly not true. Pakistan simply wants to match or exceed India in terms of tech, which is the ultimate form of deterrent. While I don't think that is possible any longer, I do think Pakistan can match India in terms of technology enough to give India's military second thoughts about any sort of strike.

I'd say Pakistan have done well enough in that regard, indeed.. your nukes are as scary as ours.

MAD is bad

 

[That Guy]

I'd say Pakistan have done well enough in that regard, indeed.. your nukes are as scary as ours.

MAD is bad

lol, let's be honest though. Neither country wants to ever use nukes, even if they say it is an option. In terms of a limited war (whether or not a such a scenerio is even possible today), technology will be the ultimate factor, not the nukes.

 

[SQ8]

Pakistan has never tried to gain military parity through man power or budgeting, rather, Pakistan has been trying to do similar to what Israel is currently doing. Israel's population and military manpower is puny compared to it's regional neighbors, yet it has the technological and miltiary edge. Why is that? Simple, it's investing in R&D and keep it's military's technological edge over it's neighbors. Pakistan's ambitions are not quite as high, as Pakistan's policy makers only want to have technological parity with India, enough to deter any sort of military adventure from it's far larger neighbor.

People keep perpetuating this myth that Pakistan wants to match India 1 for 1, but that is clearly not true, history has proven that it is clearly not true. Pakistan simply wants to match or exceed India in terms of tech, which is the ultimate form of deterrent. While I don't think that is possible any longer, I do think Pakistan can match India in terms of technology enough to give India's military second thoughts about any sort of strike.

Blame Mountbatten and Nehru for ensuring an unfair partition to both sides even if they were acting out of their own perceived interests. A properly done partition without leaving the issues of water, Kashmir and other areas would have painted a very different future for the two countries. Pakistan's insecurity is directly due to it being made an amputee at partition.. something that ended up giving India a paranoid and hostile neighbour from day 1.

 

[That Guy]

Blame Mountbatten and Nehru for ensuring an unfair partition to both sides even if they were acting out of their own perceived interests. A properly done partition without leaving the issues of water, Kashmir and other areas would have painted a very different future for the two countries. Pakistan's insecurity is directly due to it being made an amputee at partition.. something that ended up giving India a paranoid and hostile neighbour from day 1.

Completely agree, if the Brits didn't just leave the region to fend for itself and actually did their job properly during the partition, Pakistan and India would probably have been friendly neighbors.

 

[SQ8]

Completely agree, if the Brits didn't just leave the region to fend for itself and actually did their job properly during the partition, Pakistan and India would probably have been friendly neighbors.

Then who would have bought Supermarine Attackers, Hawker Hunters, Chefitans,
India

L: United Kingdom 333 Vampire FB-5 Fighter aircraft 1950 1950-1959 (333) Incl 281 produced in India; Vampire FB-52 version

62 Vampire T-55 Trainer aircraft 1950 1950-1960 (62) Incl 60 produced in India

(144) Gnat Fighter aircraft 1956 1957-1966 (144) Most produced in India; Gnat Mk-1 version

4 Ford Patrol craft (1958) 1960-1962 (4) Indian designation Abhay

(43) HS-748 Transport aircraft 1959 1961-1973 (43) 4 assembled from kits and 39 produced in India

(2277) Vijayanta Tank 1961 1965-1987 (2277) Developed for production in India; 90 assembled from kits and rest produced in India

6 Leander Frigate 1964 1972-1981 6 Indian designation Nilgiri

43 Gnat Fighter aircraft 1965 1967-1969 (43) Gnat Mk-1 version

2 Ham Minesweeper (1966) 1968-1970 2

50 Gnat Fighter aircraft (1968) 1969-1975 (50) Gnat Mk-1 version

10 HS-748 Transport aircraft 1975 1976-1979 (10)

10 HS-748 Transport aircraft 1978 1979-1984 (10)

85 Jaguar-S FGA aircraft 1979 1981-1987 (85) 'Deep Penetration Strike Aircraft' programme; Jaguar International-IS version; incl 15 Jaguar-IT; incl 45 produced in India; Indian designation Shamsher

1 Magar Landing ship (1979) 1987 1

(31) Jaguar-S FGA aircraft 1982 1988-1992 (31) Jaguar International-IS version; incl 8 Jaguar-IM (Maritime Jaguar); Indian designation Shamsher

1 Magar Landing ship 1985 1997 1

(24) Cymbeline Arty locating radar (1988) 1989-1994 (24) Indian designation MUFAR

15 Jaguar-S FGA aircraft 1993 1995-1999 (15) Jaguar International-IS version; possibly incl 4 Jaguar-IM (Maritime Jaguar); Indian designation Shamsher

17 Jaguar-S FGA aircraft 1999 2004-2005 17 Jaguar-B version; for night-attack role; possibly incl 2 Jaguar-IM (Maritime Jaguar); Indian designation Shamsher

66 Hawk-100 Trainer/combat ac 2004 2007-2012 (66) GBP1.1 b ($2 b) 'Advanced Jet Trainer' (AJT) programme (incl $1.6 b for aircraft); incl 8 assembled and 42 produced in India; Hawk-132 version

20 Jaguar-S FGA aircraft 2006 2007-2009 (20) Jaguar International-IS version; Indian designation Shamsher

57 Hawk-100 Trainer/combat ac 2010 2013 (10) GBP700-735 m ($1.1 b) deal; Hawk-132 version; delivery 2013-2015

(20) Hawk-100 Trainer/combat ac (2013) INR36 b ($685 m) deal; Hawk-132 version; selected but not yet ordered


S: United Kingdom 3 EWP Destroyer (1948) 1950 3 Second-hand; R version; Indian designation Rana

(120) FV-1611 APV (1948) 1950 (120) Second-hand

20 Dove Light transport ac (1949) 1950-1951 (20) For VIP transport

(160) 5.5in Gun Mk-3 Towed gun (1950) 1951-1954 (160) Second-hand

5 Firefly TT-1 Target tow aircraft (1952) 1953 5 Second-hand

3 Hunt Frigate (1952) 1953 3 Second-hand; Hunt-2 version; Indian designation Godavari

10 Sealand Light transport ac 1952 1953 10

17 Vampire NF-10 Fighter aircraft (1952) 1953 17 Vampire NF-54 version

104 Nene Turbojet 1953 1953-1954 (104) For 104 MD-450 Ouragan combat aircraft from France; incl Nene-105 version; from French production line

3 Blackwood Frigate 1954 1958-1959 3 Indian designation Khukri

1 Colony Cruiser 1954 1957 1 Second-hand but modernized before delivery; Indian designation Mysore

2 Ham Minesweeper (1954) 1955 2

3 Leopard/Type-41 Frigate 1954 1958-1960 3 Indian designation Brahmaputra

35 Auster AOP Light aircraft 1955 1955-1956 35 AOP-9 version

120 Centurion-3 Tank (1955) 1956 (120)

(16) Centurion ARV ARV (1955) 1957 (16)

(50) Ferret APV (1955) 1956-1957 (50) For police

(100) Centurion-3 Tank (1956) 1957 (100) Centurion-7 version

(294) Orpheus Turbojet (1956) 1964-1976 (294) For 147 Marut combat aircraft produced in India; Orpheus-703 version

4 Ton Minesweeper (1956) 1956 4

2 Whitby/Type-12 Frigate 1956 1959-1960 2 Indian designation Talwar

6 Canberra B-2 Bomber aircraft 1957 1957-1958 (6) Canberra T-54 trainer version

14 Canberra B-2 Bomber aircraft 1957 1958-1959 (14) Incl 8 Canberra PR-57 reconnaissance and 6 T-4 trainer version

54 Canberra B(I)-8 Bomber aircraft 1957 1957-1959 (54) Canberra B(I)-58 version

12 Canberra B(I)-8 Bomber aircraft 1957 1959 (12) Canberra B(I)-58 version

5 Firefly TT-1 Target tow aircraft (1957) 1958 5 Second-hand

160 Hunter Fighter aircraft 1957 1957-1961 (160) Hunter F-56 version; incl 48 originally produced for UK and sold to India for fast delivery

1 Mod. Majestic Aircraft carrier 1957 1961 1 Originally ordered by UK in WW-2 but cancelled and later completed for India; Indian designation Vikrant

12 Vampire NF-10 Fighter aircraft 1957 1957 12 Second-hand

22 Hunter Fighter aircraft 1958 1959-1961 (22) Hunter T-66 trainer version

(12) Dart Turboprop (1959) 1961 (12) Dart-21 version; for 12 Alizé ASW aircraft from France

14 Sea Hawk FGA-6 Fighter aircraft 1959 1961 14 For use on aircraft carrier

9 Sea Hawk FGA-6 Fighter aircraft 1959 1960 9 Second-hand but modernized before delivery; for use on aircraft carrier

2 Canberra B-2 Bomber aircraft (1960) 1961 (2) Canberra PR-57 reconnaissance version

5 Canberra B(I)-8 Bomber aircraft (1960) 1961 (5) Canberra B(I)-58 version

7 Sea Hawk FGA-6 Fighter aircraft (1962) 1963-1964 (7) Second-hand but modernized before delivery; for use on aircraft carrier

6 Canberra B(I)-8 Bomber aircraft (1964) 1965 6 Second-hand

(5) Green Archer Arty locating radar (1964) 1966 (5)

(300) Sea Cat SAM (1964) 1972-1981 (300) For Leander (Nilgiri) frigates

16 Sea Hawk FGA-6 Fighter aircraft 1964 1965 (16) Second-hand but modernized before delivery; for use on aircraft carrier

48 Hunter Fighter aircraft (1965) 1967 48 Second-hand and Belgian aircraft (incl 12 T-7 trainer version) sold back to producer, modernized to 36 F-56A and 5 T-66D version and sold to India

(5) Canberra B-2 Bomber aircraft (1966) 1967 (5) Second-hand; Canberra T-4 trainer version; modernized before delivery to Canberra T-54

68 Abbot 105mm Self-propelled gun (1968) 1971-1972 (68) VAE Abbot version

10 Canberra B-2 Bomber aircraft (1968) 1970-1971 (10) Second-hand; Canberra B(I)6 version modernized before delivery to Canberra Mk-66

(2) Canberra B-2 Bomber aircraft (1968) 1971 (2) Second-hand; Canberra PR-7 reconnaissance version; modernized before delivery to Canberra PR-67

(12) FV-432 APC (1968) 1969-1971 (12) CP version; for use with Abbot 105mm self-propelled guns

5 Hunter Fighter aircraft (1970) 1972 5 Second-hand but modernized before delivery to Hunter F-56B

6 Sea King HAS-1 ASW helicopter (1970) 1971 6 Sea King Mk-42A version

(600) Sea Cat SAM 1971 1972-1974 (600) Tigercat version; deal incl also 40 launchers

6 Sea King HAS-1 ASW helicopter (1972) 1973-1974 (6) Sea King Mk-42A version

5 BN-2 Maritime MP aircraft (1975) 1976 5

3 Sea King HAS-1 ASW helicopter 1977 1980 (3) Sea King Mk-42A (HAS-2) version

18 Jaguar-S FGA aircraft 1979 1979 18 On loan from UK until 1982-1984 after which 9 bought and 9 returned; Jaguar GR-1 version; incl 2 Jaguar T-1

8 Sea Harrier FRS-1 Fighter aircraft 1979 1983-1984 8 Sea Harrier FRS-51 version; incl 2 Harrier T-60; for use on aircraft carriers

3 BN-2 Maritime MP aircraft (1980) 1980 3

9 BN-2 Maritime MP aircraft (1983) 1983 9

(3) Marec MP aircraft radar (1983) 1986 (3) Marec-2 version; for 3 Do-228MP MP aircraft from FRG

(160) Sea Eagle Anti-ship missile 1983 1986-1988 (160) For Jaguar and Sea Harrier combat aircraft and S-61/SH-3D helicopters

20 Sea King HAS-5 ASW helicopter 1983 1989-1990 (20) Part of $900 m deal; Sea King Mk-42B version

6 Sea King/Commando Helicopter (1984) 1987-1988 (6) Part of $900 m deal; Sea King Mk-42C (Commando Mk-3) version

10 Sea Harrier FRS-1 Fighter aircraft 1985 1989-1991 (10) $230 m deal; Sea Harrier FRS-51 version; incl 1 Harier T-60; for use on aircraft carriers

16 CET AEV 1986 1988-1990 (15) Incl 9 Second-hand, but probably never used

1 Hermes Aircraft carrier 1986 1987 1 Second-hand; $74 m deal; modernized before delivery; Indian designation Viraat

(25) Sea Cat SAM (1986) 1987 (25) Second-hand; for Hermes (Viraat) aircraft carrier

8 Sea Harrier FRS-1 Fighter aircraft 1986 1991-1992 8 $250 m deal; Sea Harrier FRS-51 version; incl 1 Harrier T-60; for use on aircraft carriers

(30) Super Marec MP aircraft radar (1986) 1987-1997 (30) For 30 Do-228MP MP aicraft from FRG

1 Watchman Air search radar (1987) 1987 (1) For surveillance of missile test range

1 Leander Frigate 1995 1995 1 Second-hand; most radars and armament removed before delivery; for use as training ship; Indian designation Krishna

2 Harrier GR-1/AV-8A FGA aircraft 1997 2002 2 Second-hand; $24 m deal; Harrier T-4 version modernized to Harrier T-4(I) before delivery

6 Air refuel system Air refuel system (2012) For 6 A-330 MRTT tanker/transport aircraft from Spain

(350) ASRAAM SRAAM (2012) Selected but contract not yet signed

145 UFH/M-777 155mm Towed gun (2013) $560-700 m deal; ordered via USA; from US production line; selected 2012 but not yet ordered

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Incorrect, basic geography refutes you. How can a Punjabi or Sindhi have more common with a Bengali sitting some 2000km away as compared to one right across the border? The same way a Pathan may have similarities with that of Pathans in Afghanistan..but anyone else wants nothing to do with them. We speak a similar language, understand cliches and stereotypes along with common social issues that prevail in our society.

There is no identity threat from India but rather from our own failure in recognizing ours. The US and Canada are two different states, with fairly similar cultures and ideas.. yet they are happily independent and thriving. Our brainwashing is a product of a failed ideology concocted after the death of Jinnah and the rather vague statements of the two nation theory. We can continue to remain reactionaries on boths sides and decline to accept this reality and eventually nuke each other to oblivion.. or we can understand this reality of two communities requiring economic independence yet capable of recognizing what is common that can be beneficial for the both of is.



So? What does the popularity of entertainment have to do with the popularity of a nation as a geopolitical subject in the news and TV channels?

Sorry for the delayed response ; was looking and replying in that Indian Railways thread

I have never talked about Geopolitics at all

I was replying to @farhan_9909 's assertion
about people being Wajib e qatal

If you want to talk of the LINK between entertainment and geopolitics
my take is as follows

While Pakistanis hate India due to Kashmir and other reasons
( such as India's rise and Pakistan's decline )
They STILL manage to get their dose of Indian entertainment

This is where the DICHOTOMY starts
On the hand you cannot give up HATING us
and on the other you cannot ignore and forget us completely

The whole project of Zia ul Haq's islamisation was based on
ENDING this dichotomy ; but it still prevails

As far as geopolitical studies are concerned ; though Pakistanis
look at other neighbours such as Iran; Afghanistan but the main focus remains on India

This is what can be gleaned from the THOUSAND odd articles in Pakistani
newspapers post 26 JANUARY
advising Pakistanis to restrain their feelings and get their act together

Many like Hussain Haqqani have simply advised their fellow citizens
to get realistic and FORGET about that elusive parity with India

 

[SQ8]

Sorry for the delayed response ; was looking and replying in that Indian Railways thread

I have never talked about Geopolitics at all

I was replying to @farhan_9909 's assertion
about people being Wajib e qatal

If you want to talk of the LINK between entertainment and geopolitics
my take is as follows

While Pakistanis hate India due to Kashmir and other reasons
( such as India's rise and Pakistan's decline )
They STILL manage to get their dose of Indian entertainment

This is where the DICHOTOMY starts
On the hand you cannot give up HATING us
and on the other you cannot ignore and forget us completely

The whole project of Zia ul Haq's islamisation was based on
ENDING this dichotomy ; but it still prevails

As far as geopolitical studies are concerned ; though Pakistanis
look at other neighbours such as Iran; Afghanistan but the main focus remains on India

This is what can be gleaned from the THOUSAND odd articles in Pakistani
newspapers post 26 JANUARY
advising Pakistanis to restrain their feelings and get their act together

Many like Hussain Haqqani have simply advised their fellow citizens
to get realistic and FORGET about that elusive parity with India

The bold is the usual self-righteousness and not worth a comment.
Pakistani hate America yet chow on Mc Donalds.. They hate Israel yet happily use Viber..
Haqqani may not be entirely wrong nor is he completely right.. there is hate within the Indian Leadership mindset on Pakistan's very existence.. which cannot be bowed down to in an attempt to bridge peace. Once that factor is taken out there is much willingness to talk as equals on a respectful level.

Parity has nothing to do with military hardware or economy, it has to do with the realization that Pakistan(and Pakistanis) have as much rights to their requirements as a state as India does.. and as your post clearly shows.. you do not recognize that and therein lies the problem.

 

[gau8av]

We will either get there or end up as South and North Korea.. however, for that to happen there has to be a Taliban Revolution which is now getting less and less likely(unless sponsored by the military).

not a good example, DPRK folk are on average shorter and pretty frail compared to the well fed South Koreans

I just want a prosperous south asia free from all forms of extremism, and maybe a PDF free from trolls.

lol, let's be honest though. Neither country wants to ever use nukes, even if they say it is an option. In terms of a limited war (whether or not a such a scenerio is even possible today), technology will be the ultimate factor, not the nukes.

probably not, thanks to both sides' very credible deterrence. I doubt we'll even see a Kargil level "limited" conflict, miniaturization and delivery systems were nowhere near the level of technical sophistication they are today, for both the forces.. in fact we hear more of **** tactical rocket artillery 'battlefield' low yield nukes than Indian WMDs, no first use is self defeating but will lead to the ultimate destruction of all of the 'first user'

shubh shubh bolo, yaar.. BC atom bomb ki dhamki de ek ek doosrey ko lol

 

[SQ8]

not a good example, DPRK folk are on average shorter and pretty frail compared to the well fed South Koreans

I just want a prosperous south asia free from all forms of extremism, and maybe a PDF free from trolls.

Neither of them is going to happen without a revolution.