Rebuilding the army of Genghis Khan

[telkon]

Yeah, i wanted help from targon but he said it's impossible to map. I need autocad on my computer, i will make another detailed one. Correct me if i make mistakes.

it might be a good idea to make grids/parallel lines. each line marking hundred years. that way it'd be easier to show timeline.

 

[zavis2003]

it might be a good idea to make grids/parallel lines. each line marking hundred years. that way it'd be easier to show timeline.

If you do than don't forget the GREAT KARLUK Turks

 

[kalu_miah]

@telkon are you from Osh? You mentioned Khan Babur's house, that is Sulemani mountain/hill in the middle of Osh?

@Sinan you need to include Karakhan, I did not see that in the list. Here are some important Karakhan personalities you may already know or heard about:
Mahmud al-Kashgari - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Dīwān ul-Lughat al-Turk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Yusuf Khass Hajib - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[-SINAN-]

you need to include Karakhan, I did not see that in the list. Here are some important Karakhan personalities you may already know or heard about:
Mahmud al-Kashgari - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Dīwān ul-Lughat al-Turk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Yusuf Khass Hajib - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Karakhan" was a country...formed by Uyghur Turks.

 

[telkon]

If you do than don't forget the GREAT KARLUK Turks

sure.

@Sinan i forgot to write. hun, kyrgyz, chidi, dinlin are in the first line. then around 5. century its tele/tiele group. then 1 century later kipchak (a-shih-te), türgesh (türgeş are kind of the medium where later oghuz tribes formed), karluks and uyghur. then you have very fucked up period of 2 centuries. i won't and don't want to go there LOL that's all for now.

@telkon are you from Osh? You mentioned Khan Babur's house, that is Sulemani mountain/hill in the middle of Osh?

@Sinan you need to include Karakhan, I did not see that in the list. Here are some important Karakhan personalities you may already know or heard about:
Mahmud al-Kashgari - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Dīwān ul-Lughat al-Turk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Yusuf Khass Hajib - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

yes, i'm from Osh

and karakhanid was a state founded by karluks.

 

[Indos]

Central Asian people is indeed important and distinctive, even Rome was actually originated from a tribe from this area.

On the East side there is Ugyur people

 

[kalu_miah]

Off topic discussion, I may create a thread with this later.

@Indos bro, its been a while. I want to discuss a topic, but not sure what section to put the thread and also not sure if I have the time to maintain the thread. Its about what side Muslim countries should choose when you have to choose between China and the West or should we stay somewhere in between. Of course one size does not fit all, every country has their own unique situation, but there is some common thread.

Earlier my feeling was that we should choose China, because the West has done us so much harm in the past, colonizing us and destroying our countries, with China we do not have this history. There is Xinjiang, but it is a small matter compared with the well being of billions of people. But lately looking at current events, it seems democracy is more and more the only hope for the rise of different Muslim countries who want to reach their true development potentials and also achieve more unity on world stage. Not that the West always support democracy, but in principle they agree that all people and countries should be democratic. As long as the Chinese CPC survives and there is no democracy in China, we will never have support for democracy in our countries from China. So this clearly puts Muslim countries and China in a collision course, as they will tend to support more authoritarian regimes which is against the national interest of these countries.

Here is list of status of democracy in Muslim countries:
Islamic democracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Turkey, Indonesia and Malaysia are all great examples of how democracy and development go hand in hand. We can see how Russia, a pseudo democratic authoritarian regime is siding with dictators like Assad. We can see how monarchies are overthrowing democratically elected regimes like Morsi in Egypt and replacing them with dictators like Sisi. We can also see Gulf monarchies hijack Syria democratic movement funding extremism among rebels and eventually giving rise to ISIS. Salafism from the Saudi regime from the days of Abdul Wahab has been one of the tragedies within Sunni Islamic world. The British have used them and then later the US have used them and this regime is still protected by the US, even when a Salafi offshoot like ISIS becomes a monster and tries to devour its own creator, the Gulf monarchies and their Salafi ideologues. Here in South Asia we can see a paradox like a democratic India working to destroy democracy in their neighbor Muslim country Bangladesh just so they can put their favorite dictator in power and the West looking the other way and paying lip service about democracy.

In short, it seems all Muslims countries need democracy to move forward and China is not going to help us with that. The West however will selectively support democracy as long as it serves their interest. If a united and democratic Sunni Muslim world sides with the West in the coming conflict between China and the West, then I think it will be possible to convince Western strategists about how both democracy and unity within Sunni Muslim world can become a western alliance pillar, despite our past mutual bad experience.

 

[Indos]

Off topic discussion, I may create a thread with this later.

@Indos bro, its been a while. I want to discuss a topic, but not sure what section to put the thread and also not sure if I have the time to maintain the thread. Its about what side Muslim countries should choose when you have to choose between China and the West or should we stay somewhere in between. Of course one size does not fit all, every country has their own unique situation, but there is some common thread.

Earlier my feeling was that we should choose China, because the West has done us so much harm in the past, colonizing us and destroying our countries, with China we do not have this history. There is Xinjiang, but it is a small matter compared with the well being of billions of people. But lately looking at current events, it seems democracy is more and more the only hope for the rise of different Muslim countries who want to reach their true development potentials and also achieve more unity on world stage. Not that the West always support democracy, but in principle they agree that all people and countries should be democratic. As long as the Chinese CPC survives and there is no democracy in China, we will never have support for democracy in our countries from China. So this clearly puts Muslim countries and China in a collision course, as they will tend to support more authoritarian regimes which is against the national interest of these countries.

Here is list of status of democracy in Muslim countries:
Islamic democracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Turkey, Indonesia and Malaysia are all great examples of how democracy and development go hand in hand. We can see how Russia, a pseudo democratic authoritarian regime is siding with dictators like Assad. We can see how monarchies are overthrowing democratically elected regimes like Morsi in Egypt and replacing them with dictators like Sisi. We can also see Gulf monarchies hijack Syria democratic movement funding extremism and eventually giving rise to ISIS. Salafism from the Saudi regime from the days of Abdul Wahab has been one of the tragedies within Sunni Islamic world. The British have used them and then later the US have used them and this regime is still protected by the US, even when a Salafi offshoot like ISIS becomes a monster and tries to devour its own creator, the Gulf monarchies and their Salafi ideologues. Here in South Asia we can see a paradox like a democratic India working to destroy democracy in their neighbor Muslim country Bangladesh just so they can put their favorite dictator in power and the West looking the other way and paying lip service about democracy.

In short, it seems all Muslims countries need democracy to move forward and China is not going to help us with that. The West however will selectively support democracy as long as it serves their interest. If a united and democratic Sunni Muslim world sides with the West in the coming conflict between China and the West, then I think it will be possible to convince Western strategists about how both democracy and unity within Sunni Muslim world can become a western alliance pillar, despite our past mutual bad experience.

Good to see you back as well mate,

I dont want to comment about Wahhabism as I think at some degree it has some positiveness on Sunni Muslim. I like to be in between though, between Sufism and Wahhabism. If we take the side it will be wrong, each side has its positiveness and negativeness.

Yup, now we can see the emergence of ISIS, some thing that we have already predicted after the crushing of Muslim Brotherhood power in Egypt. Hardliner know belief that they must stay in a non compromise form which make some of them become the supplier of ISIS. The event in Egypt make them see thing in black and white perspective now and walk without leader that make them easy to be hijacked and brainwashed.

The fall of Muslim Brotherhood also create pessimism toward democracy in the Arab world in which in some degree also affect the war in Syria ( moderate Islamist lost its influence and extremist ( ISIS/ Al Nusra) gains more). Egyptian under MB leadership actually can create leadership among Islamist fighter and thus prevent ISIS and Nusra to grow. I believe Iran and Hisbullah will not intervene in Syria like Today if Egypt is still under Mursi.

Western and Muslim world is actually side by side during cold war mate. And talking about China, it is better to wait and see first since Indonesia is in the region near SCS and can potentially have conflict with them. If we are in conflict, of course all Muslim countries should side with us.

 

[Samandri]

- Also, in Afghanistan (along with other non-Turkic Muslim countries), he is generally viewed unfavorably.

For very good reasons. Mongols had no honour what so ever. Genocide was their war strategy for conquest, they were nukes of those times. They would rape and kill the women, and would not even spare the infants (they used to tear apart the wombs of pregnant women and would impale the fetuses with their spears, laughing in the meanwhile).They were so much despised in the muslim world, that even those converted to Islam, were declared Kafirs by Ibn-i-Taymiyya.

 

[-SINAN-]

If a united and democratic Sunni Muslim world sides with the West in the coming conflict between China and the West, then I think it will be possible to convince Western strategists about how both democracy and unity within Sunni Muslim world can become a western alliance pillar, despite our past mutual bad experience.

United Democratic Sunni Countries wouldn't need to convince anybody, it would be a force to reckon with.

 

[kalu_miah]

United Democratic Sunni Countries wouldn't need to convince anybody, it would be a force to reckon with.

True, but we are not united and most of us are not democratic now. If we aspire and work to be democratic and allied with the West, then the West will invest in our democracy and unity, that is what I am trying to say.

Turkey is an excellent role model for this, a democracy that is developing everyday and a NATO member. Pakistan is playing both sides, China and the West, but the rest of us do not need to do that I believe. Pakistan can be a special case due to geography as it borders with China and needs Chinese help to counter India. When Pakistan's economy develops more, it can and hopefully will become less dependent on China.

China will not become a democratic country in the foreseeable future, but we can always rethink this when in far future China becomes a democratic country.

Good to see you back as well mate,

I dont want to comment about Wahhabism as I think at some degree it has some positiveness on Sunni Muslim. I like to be in between though, between Sufism and Wahhabism. If we take the side it will be wrong, each side has its positiveness and negativeness.

Yup, now we can see the emergence of ISIS, some thing that we have already predicted after the crushing of Muslim Brotherhood power in Egypt. Hardliner know belief that they must stay in a non compromise form which make some of them become the supplier of ISIS. The event in Egypt make them see thing in black and white perspective now and walk without leader that make them easy to be hijacked and brainwashed.

The fall of Muslim Brotherhood also create pessimism toward democracy in the Arab world in which in some degree also affect the war in Syria ( moderate Islamist lost its influence and extremist ( ISIS/ Al Nusra) gains more). Egyptian under MB leadership actually can create leadership among Islamist fighter and thus prevent ISIS and Nusra to grow. I believe Iran and Hisbullah will not intervene in Syria like Today if Egypt is still under Mursi.

Western and Muslim world is actually side by side during cold war mate. And talking about China, it is better to wait and see first since Indonesia is in the region near SCS and can potentially have conflict with them. If we are in conflict, of course all Muslim countries should side with us.

I am not sure what Iran and Hezb would have done if Morsi was still in power, we will never find out, but we can see what they have done so far and it looks like so called "secular" Sisi has their tacit support. I personally see Iran regime as just another anti-people authoritarian and dictatorial regime and naturally allied with Russia and China.

As for the SCS conflict, it is a test case that shows how China and Chinese feel about the world around them. When most Muslim countries become truly democratic then there will be more unity among them out of practical economic and strategic reasons and then you can rest assure that most Muslim countries will help each other in our regional matters. But as it stands today, we got many anti-people dictators installed by hostile forces, that needs to change and may be the West will help out in this regard, if we promise to be their ally in their struggle for supremacy against China.

 

[Indos]

I am not sure what Iran and Hezb would have done if Morsi was still in power, we will never find out, but we can see what they have done so far and it looks like so called "secular" Sisi has their tacit support. I personally see Iran regime as just another anti-people authoritarian and dictatorial regime and naturally allied with Russia and China.

As for the SCS conflict, it is a test case that shows how China and Chinese feel about the world around them. When most Muslim countries become truly democratic then there will be more unity among them out of practical economic and strategic reasons and then you can rest assure that most Muslim countries will help each other in our regional matters. But as it stands today, we got many anti-people dictators installed by hostile forces, that needs to change and may be the West will help out in this regard, if we promise to be their ally in their struggle for supremacy against China.

I dont think that we need The West to democratize Muslim world mate. What democracy needs is clean, strong, and smart leader. It also needs people participation on the system. As long as there is good supply of man on that system, it will work well and just fine, inshaALLAH.

Talking about how to democratize Muslim world. For the Indonesian part, potential Indonesian must try to make their democracy run as ideal as it can. More good news about my country will create more reason for any Muslim country to follow our course.

Actually, Muslim has a capacity and a treasure to run democracy very well. There is hadith saying that The best Muslim is the one who can contribute the biggest. And of course political system is the place where we can have such contribution. And the work to realize it is a Jihad.

 

[Ceri]

True, but we are not united and most of us are not democratic now. If we aspire and work to be democratic and allied with the West, then the West will invest in our democracy and unity, that is what I am trying to say.

Turkey is an excellent role model for this, a democracy that is developing everyday and a NATO member. Pakistan is playing both sides, China and the West, but the rest of us do not need to do that I believe. Pakistan can be a special case due to geography as it borders with China and needs Chinese help to counter India. When Pakistan's economy develops more, it can and hopefully will become less dependent on China.

China will not become a democratic country in the foreseeable future, but we can always rethink this when in far future China becomes a democratic country.



I am not sure what Iran and Hezb would have done if Morsi was still in power, we will never find out, but we can see what they have done so far and it looks like so called "secular" Sisi has their tacit support. I personally see Iran regime as just another anti-people authoritarian and dictatorial regime and naturally allied with Russia and China.

As for the SCS conflict, it is a test case that shows how China and Chinese feel about the world around them. When most Muslim countries become truly democratic then there will be more unity among them out of practical economic and strategic reasons and then you can rest assure that most Muslim countries will help each other in our regional matters. But as it stands today, we got many anti-people dictators installed by hostile forces, that needs to change and may be the West will help out in this regard, if we promise to be their ally in their struggle for supremacy against China.

This is a very interesting discussion. A couple of weeks ago i actually played with the idea of how industrial developed sunni countries like Turkey, Malaysia and Indonesia might do some kind of a union as a model to the rest of the Sunni world. Turkey is the richest and the most industrially developed muslim country closely followed by Malaysia and Indonesia. Our leadership in Turkey has done some wonders in the arena of economy and military during the last 13 years. Turkey and Malaysia should work much more closely in strategising and expert help in developing countries like Bangladesh and Pakistan for their own gains. As an example i can point to America sending economic experts to Vietnam in the 80s and 90s to help them administrate etc. This field is definately essential and should be focused on. Beacuse the Sunni world in Asia must strive for common interest and have long term policy perspective and goals that will benefit a wide spectrum of peoples in East Asia

 

[kalu_miah]

I dont think that we need The West to democratize Muslim world mate. What democracy needs is clean, strong, and smart leader. It also needs people participation on the system. As long as there is good supply of man on that system, it will work well and just fine, inshaALLAH.

Talking about how to democratize Muslim world. For the Indonesian part, potential Indonesian must try to make their democracy run as ideal as it can. More good news about my country will create more reason for any Muslim country to follow our course.

Actually, Muslim has a capacity and a treasure to run democracy very well. There is hadith saying that The best Muslim is the one who can contribute the biggest. And of course political system is the place where we can have such contribution. And the work to realize it is a Jihad.

The problem with this approach is that many Muslim countries have too many dictators waiting to take and be in power who have other powers backing them for their own national interest. For example Russian dictator Putin is propping up the regimes in all 5 former Soviet stans, while China is helping them with economy and trade. Only Kyrgyzstan had elections among the 5, but it too had bad luck of corrupt leaders who loot as much and as quickly as they can. 4 others are president for life. As for Bangladesh, India has made it a virtual colony, installed a puppet dictator and helping the regime killing off the opposition. Can Turkey, Indonesia and Malaysia, the most developed and prosperous Muslim countries extend their influence to democratize these countries? You get the picture. Only the West has the might to make these changes, if they are really willing to. The way these powers like India and Russia are working is to convince the West that these dictators are good because they keep Islamists away and if the Islamists come to power in a democracy, they will become anti-West and support terrorism. In last few months in Bangladesh, at least 4-5 atheist bloggers, one Italian social worker very close to people and one Muslim Japanese convert was killed. In all cases, the police could not find the killers, but instead are rounding up the opposition under suspicion. You can guess who might try to prove that there is extremism and anti-west terrorism in Bangladesh to make sure that their puppet dictator stays in power and no democracy takes place, under pressure from the West. If West wanted to, they could stop all trade and suspend UN peace keeping program for Bangladesh armed forces and this would bring the current dictator to its knees and force a proper election. But the West is not doing anything, convinced by India that this dictator is keeping Islamism and terrorism away from Bangladesh. The killings are actually working to convince and fool the West. You can copy paste the situation for Syria, Central Asia, Egypt and many other countries.

This is a very interesting discussion. A couple of weeks ago i actually played with the idea of how industrial developed sunni countries like Turkey, Malaysia and Indonesia might do some kind of a union as a model to the rest of the Sunni world. Turkey is the richest and the most industrially developed muslim country closely followed by Malaysia and Indonesia. Our leadership in Turkey has done some wonders in the arena of economy and military during the last 13 years. Turkey and Malaysia should work much more closely in strategising and expert help in developing countries like Bangladesh and Pakistan for their own gains. As an example i can point to America sending economic experts to Vietnam in the 80s and 90s to help them administrate etc. This field is definately essential and should be focused on. Beacuse the Sunni world in Asia must strive for common interest and have long term policy perspective and goals that will benefit a wide spectrum of peoples in East Asia

Yes you could do that, but first you need to convince the West that the united and democratic Sunni Muslim world will be allied with the West, specially against their coming struggle for supremacy with China. Turkey, Indonesia and Malaysia could start targeting one country after another starting with small countries and make sure they become democratic and then pull them in your group. The next question would be what countries could be target countries and how much are these 3 countries willing to risk to go this route? Can you counter the powers that are currently controlling these countries? It is a tough proposition, but it can be done only with blessing from the West and it will need full mobilization from the 3 countries.

 

[Ceri]

The problem with this approach is that many Muslim countries have too many dictators waiting to take and be in power who have other powers backing them for their own national interest. For example Russian dictator Putin is propping up the regimes in all 5 former Soviet stans, while China is helping them with economy and trade. Only Kyrgyzstan had elections among the 5, but it too had bad luck of corrupt leaders who loot as much and as quickly as they can. 4 others are president for life. As for Bangladesh, India has made it a virtual colony, installed a puppet dictator and helping the regime killing off the opposition. Can Turkey, Indonesia and Malaysia, the most developed and prosperous Muslim countries extend their influence to democratize these countries? You get the picture. Only the West has the might to make these changes, if they are really willing to. The way these powers like India and Russia are working is to convince the West that these dictators are good because they keep Islamists away and if the Islamists come to power in a democracy, they will become anti-West and support terrorism. In last few months in Bangladesh, at least 4-5 atheist bloggers, one Italian social worker very close to people and one Muslim Japanese convert was killed. In all cases, the police could not find the killers, but instead are rounding up the opposition under suspicion. You can guess who might try to prove that there is extremism and anti-west terrorism in Bangladesh to make sure that their puppet dictator stays in power and no democracy takes place, under pressure from the West. If West wanted to, they could stop all trade and suspend UN peace keeping program for Bangladesh armed forces and this would bring the current dictator to its knees and force a proper election. But the West is not doing anything, convinced by India that this dictator is keeping Islamism and terrorism away from Bangladesh. The killings are actually working to convince and fool the West. You can copy paste the situation for Syria, Central Asia, Egypt and many other countries.

With how things are right now, you are correct that the West has the tools to spread democracy in Bangladesh. However, there is no vested interest for the West to pursue such a goal, remember the US don't interact with countries for their brown eyes sakes, there has to be vested interests and gains need to be greater than costs. Investment in Bangladesh's stability and economy will not turn to gains in a short amount of time, because it has lingered in undevelopment for such a long time, therefore i don't see any reason why the US would focus largely in Bangladesh.
Currently, i am pretty sure the Turkish government closely follows the developments in Bangladesh as they do in Pakistan, AKP always voices that the grievances of Pakistan and Bangladesh is our responsibility as well and we will do whatever in our power to help. But currently we don't posess same amount of power and leverage as the US does. BUT in few decades when the combined GDP of Malaysia+Turkey+Indonesia exceeds 15 trillion USD our combined leverage and influence will greatly grow. That is not to say these three countries should ignore the developments in Bangladesh for now, on the contrary the soil needs to be sown now, or Bangladesh will keep lingering in political instability.

Turkey is strong, but currently not strong enough. We have as a former empire a great concern for Sunnis worldover and a feeling of responsibility for their development. If we will be able to rid our country of foreign backed groups like PKK and ISIS, i am 100% confident the things you emphasize will take place because great minds converge, even without the need of communication - the stand alone complex