Rebuilding Pakistan Navy Aviation.

[Myth_buster_1]

Currently the PN Aviation Force consists of:

3 Westland Lynx - anti-ship/anti-submarine/transport helicopters
6 Westland Sea King Mk45 - transport helicopters
18 Harbin Z-9EC - helicopters
8 Aérospatiale SA-319B Alouette III - transport/anti-ship helicopters
4 Lockheed P-3C Orion - maritime surveillance/anti-submarine warfare aircraft/airborne early warning (6 more to be delivered)
5 Fokker F27-200 Friendship - maritime surveillance aircraft
2-3 Breguet Atlantique I - maritime surveillance/anti-submarine warfare aircraft
12+ Dassault Mirage V - anti-ship fighter aircraft (operated by the Pakistan Air Force)

The only effective way to defend a mammoth Indian navy is to modernize our navy aviation to 21st standard aviation. 12 odd 60s era Mirages and 4 P-3 will have little impact to IN Navy? Currently PN has a plan to induct one new fighter sqd. the question is, is it enough? and what type is it goanna be?

Rafale M
Su-34
JF-17

 

[Quwa]

The PN's aviating wing is already being rebuilt, but it will take a long while before it to becomes a significant regional player. It will always depend on finances, requirements and the doctrine. To me it appears the PN wants to be a formidable regional power that regularly participates in international missions.

The PN has set its minimum criteria for MPAs by raising its P-3C fleet to 10 and attempts are being made to add 3 Hawkeye-2000 AEW. Now there is no guarantee that PN will get the Hawkeye-2000s, but at least the intention for such capability is definitely there. There were also reports by H Khan on PakDef that PN wants its own fighter squadron by 2009. Whatever happens, at the end of the day the PN land based fleet is expected to have 10-12 MPAs, 3 AEW and a fighter squadron.

The P-3Cs will probably build the necessary capability and phase into the new doctrine, but those airframes are pretty old. Sometime next decade - probably by 2019 - the PN will start looking for a new MPA to replace the Orion in the long-run. EADS is preparing for the next decade with their A320 MPA to compete with the Boeing P-8. The Turkish Navy will use an ASW variant of the prop-powered ATR-72. So the PN has both jet and prop options...it is likely the same aircraft will be used to operate a new AWACS system - probably the Sino-Pak one under development.

Fighter squadron would be interesting. I personally see a squadron of used F-16A/B or C/D first as Link-16 could be integrated between the Falcon and Hawkeye-2000 quite easily. However JF-17 is also very likely...but 2009 is cutting it close, so Mirages perhaps? In the long-run I am unsure as anything is possible...like a naval JF-17? Perhaps a variant of J-11B? Perhaps PLAN would have a 5th generation naval fighter? Nonetheless some serious threats will be accounted for such as possible Super Hornets within the IN and maybe even a 5th generation fighter like JSF.

The helicopter fleet will see some heavy expansion over the next decade. For one new systems such as the AW149, EC-175/Z-15 and Korean Medium will be flooding the market. These are reasonable priced new-generation helicopters that would form the mainstay of a lot of navies...especially for corvette & medium frigate operators. The PN's Marine Corps may also require some aviation capability. From what I've read on PakDef, it appears that the surface fleet will see heavy expansion in the long-term. In short expect a good number of perhaps EC-175/Z-15 - as China will also produce & procure - in the PN. We'll probably see a lesser number of 10-ton helicopters such as NH-90 or the Chinese equivalent replace the Seaking and operate on command ships.

 

[sohailbutt]

The PN's aviating wing is already being rebuilt, but it will take a long while before it to becomes a significant regional player. It will always depend on finances, requirements and the doctrine. To me it appears the PN wants to be a formidable regional power that regularly participates in international missions.

The PN has set its minimum criteria for MPAs by raising its P-3C fleet to 10 and attempts are being made to add 3 Hawkeye-2000 AEW. Now there is no guarantee that PN will get the Hawkeye-2000s, but at least the intention for such capability is definitely there. There were also reports by H Khan on PakDef that PN wants its own fighter squadron by 2009. Whatever happens, at the end of the day the PN land based fleet is expected to have 10-12 MPAs, 3 AEW and a fighter squadron.

The P-3Cs will probably build the necessary capability and phase into the new doctrine, but those airframes are pretty old. Sometime next decade - probably by 2019 - the PN will start looking for a new MPA to replace the Orion in the long-run. EADS is preparing for the next decade with their A320 MPA to compete with the Boeing P-8. The Turkish Navy will use an ASW variant of the prop-powered ATR-72. So the PN has both jet and prop options...it is likely the same aircraft will be used to operate a new AWACS system - probably the Sino-Pak one under development.

Fighter squadron would be interesting. I personally see a squadron of used F-16A/B or C/D first as Link-16 could be integrated between the Falcon and Hawkeye-2000 quite easily. However JF-17 is also very likely...but 2009 is cutting it close, so Mirages perhaps? In the long-run I am unsure as anything is possible...like a naval JF-17? Perhaps a variant of J-11B? Perhaps PLAN would have a 5th generation naval fighter? Nonetheless some serious threats will be accounted for such as possible Super Hornets within the IN and maybe even a 5th generation fighter like JSF.

The helicopter fleet will see some heavy expansion over the next decade. For one new systems such as the AW149, EC-175/Z-15 and Korean Medium will be flooding the market. These are reasonable priced new-generation helicopters that would form the mainstay of a lot of navies...especially for corvette & medium frigate operators. The PN's Marine Corps may also require some aviation capability. From what I've read on PakDef, it appears that the surface fleet will see heavy expansion in the long-term. In short expect a good number of perhaps EC-175/Z-15 - as China will also produce & procure - in the PN. We'll probably see a lesser number of 10-ton helicopters such as NH-90 or the Chinese equivalent replace the Seaking and operate on command ships.

Mark, i dont think India will go the JSF way cause they have their co-produced Indo-Russian 5th generation fighter comin up in the next decade, no doubt that their is a posibility that they can go the hornet way. I think PAF will go the JSF way, in the future, because PAF will not have all Chinese fighters in its fleet (for e.g. J-XX, we donot know when it is goin to come up, n also we don't know the tech in the aircraft, i doubt it can match JSF or Raptor), PAF have always kept a mix of US n Chinese fighters, wut do u think???

 

[Myth_buster_1]

@ Mark Sien

yes indeed pakistan navy has placed orders on 10 P-3c while 3 P-3C will be equipped with E2-2000 AEW system. India is countering this threat with a possible TOT of Hornets and P-3C and P-8.
PAF has only one airbase at the south, ill equipped Masroor with Mirages and F-7. Around 2010 i am sure many sqds will be equipped with jf-17s. but is it enough against 3 Indian air bases when they equip with super hornets or mig-35s?
the best solution.. Masroor acquires a sqd of RafaleM and replace its sqds consisting of F-7 and Mirages with JF-17s while Erieye provides 350 km coverage in a dense hostile electronic warfare environment!

 

[BATMAN]

Now there is no guarantee that PN will get the Hawkeye-2000s

Why so? I hope nothing to do with new govt.
I really would love to see Hawkeye2000s with PN.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Why so? I hope nothing to do with new govt.
I really would love to see Hawkeye2000s with PN.

PN has placed an order for 3 P-3C Orions equipped with the E-2C Hawkeye 2000 AEW system.

 

[Neo]

Why so? I hope nothing to do with new govt.
I really would love to see Hawkeye2000s with PN.

I too agree with Mark, the way things are now I don't think GoP will risk placing more defence orders in USA specially if Democrats win the elections.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

forgive me for my stupidity, but what's the chance of pakistan building an aircraft carrier in the next 10-15 years?

could this be possible if we boost our ship-building capabilities? KSEW has the infrastructure to develop a wide range of sea craft, from frigates to submarines to tankers.

italy, france, india, china all have plans to develop an aircraft carrier. i'm sure we can send engineers to cooperate with the chinese and try to build up our capabilities.

 

[Keysersoze]

forgive me for my stupidity, but what's the chance of pakistan building an aircraft carrier in the next 10-15 years?

could this be possible if we boost our ship-building capabilities? KSEW has the infrastructure to develop a wide range of sea craft, from frigates to submarines to tankers.

italy, france, india, china all have plans to develop an aircraft carrier. i'm sure we can send engineers to cooperate with the chinese and try to build up our capabilities.

I would say None dude. The thing that you have to remember is that you would require a whole battle group of ships in order to make the carrier feasible. (not to mention you would need three to maintain a ship on the water constantly)

Cost would be huge. And since there is no doctrine that would support that cost it would be pointless for the moment

 

[vish]

Sorry if I'm being naive... but doesn't the PN's doctrine center around the defense of Pakistan’s coast and guarding of the country’s sea lanes? If that is the primary concern of the PN then I think it makes more sense for the PN to concentrate its efforts into expanding its surface fleet (in terms of number of combatants and not essentially in terms of tonnage) and maintain a relatively more potent submarine arm both in terms of quantity and quality (which PN has always been doing).

As far as the PN’s air arm is concerned, its (Navy’s) intention to have an independent fighter squadron threat is very much pragmatic, given the fact that in times of emergency, the PAF would be preoccupied elsewhere.

These are my views, and I’m no expert. So feel free to criticize me.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Sorry if I'm being naive... but doesn't the PN's doctrine center around the defense of Pakistan’s coast and guarding of the country’s sea lanes? If that is the primary concern of the PN then I think it makes more sense for the PN to concentrate its efforts into expanding its surface fleet (in terms of number of combatants and not essentially in terms of tonnage) and maintain a relatively more potent submarine arm both in terms of quantity and quality (which PN has always been doing).

As far as the PN’s air arm is concerned, its (Navy’s) intention to have an independent fighter squadron threat is very much pragmatic, given the fact that in times of emergency, the PAF would be preoccupied elsewhere.

These are my views, and I’m no expert. So feel free to criticize me.

That seems about right, and is the direction that PN acquisitions seem to be heading in - hence the lack of interest in a carrier.

 

[fatman17]

i doubt if the PN will ever possess a fighter squadron - it will always remain the purview of the PAF which will in any case dedicate a maritime strike sqdn or flight for the PN just like the current mirages (with Exocets) based at masroor AFB.

 

[IceCold]

If PN gets its own squardon of fighter jets, perhaps it can cut the pressure off the PAF which will be heavily occupied at a time of conflict with the IAF. Besides it will then be the PN responsibility and PNs decision of how they want to maintain that squardon of theirs and with what weapons.

 

[fatman17]

If PN gets its own squardon of fighter jets, perhaps it can cut the pressure off the PAF which will be heavily occupied at a time of conflict with the IAF. Besides it will then be the PN responsibility and PNs decision of how they want to maintain that squardon of theirs and with what weapons.

icecold-your logic makes sense but it is the matter of operational expertise which the PAF possesses and PN dosnt. larger navies which operate carriers have their own fighters but as indicated in above posts the PN does not have any carrier acquisition plans. believe me the PN has its hands full with the current assets it possesses and will possess.

 

[Quwa]

icecold-your logic makes sense but it is the matter of operational expertise which the PAF possesses and PN dosnt. larger navies which operate carriers have their own fighters but as indicated in above posts the PN does not have any carrier acquisition plans. believe me the PN has its hands full with the current assets it possesses and will possess.

Any PN fighter squadron would probably be raised with close cooperation with the PAF. It is likely that the PN will send its pilots and crews to be trained by PAF...and complete training within some PN Air College? With the growing aviation assets - AEW&C, more MPAs & helicopters; network-centric focus; UAVs & fighter squadron - we could see a PN Air College.