Reality of Kashmir today June 2016 (Truth is Bitter)

[SrNair]

Kashmir was never part of India. Indian Occupation Forces have been carrying out genocide of Kashmiri people deliberately. People of Kashmir will never accept the Indian occupation. Their hearts beat in sync with Pakistani people. You can kill them but never win their hearts. Pakistan need to re-energize and support Kashmiri freedom fighters through every possible way as this a disputed area and UN has failed to fullfil its pledge on plebiscite.

Yaran-e-Jahan kehtay hain Kashmir hai jannat
Jannnat kisi kafir ko mili hai na milay gi​

Translation

People of the world say that the valley of Kashmir is a heaven
No infidel ever got heaven, neither in the past nor in the future​

In India majority freedom offered by constitution will rule .Religion or any other petty factors wont be a part of the greater
good.
Kashmiris can find other places if they cant follow the Indian administration .
We will do whatever we want .

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Joe Shearer Exactly. The points you have highlighted, since having been covered already, were of no use repeating. It is exactly the reason why even Indian claims to Aksai Chin are untenable as even Maharaja's claim over the areas were tenous at best. The history of Kashmir, I remain aware of, the topographic nature of advent of inhabitation as described by you above, is a hallmark of the general areas north-northeast-northwest of Kashmir valley proper, as most of the vales are deep with steep ascending mountains on either side and limited axis for movement. s

Since you have referred @WAJsal as a source, will spend next few days pouring over his posts to gain insights which may add to my residual knowledge of things in general and that portion of Kashmir in particular. Thanks for referring him.

@WAJsal Sorry if I bother you with a few clarifications, will be grateful for your indulgence in case of the same.

The blog I referred to was to highlight the confusion amongst the common Pakistani and the cycle of perpetuation of misconceptions as to their role in Kashmir imbroglio. Whereas the control of Gilgit was placed in NWFP due to the ease of administration, it can not be construed as being a part thereof, something which the author was trying to drive at. And the hesitancy I talk on part of Pakistan above, is in incorporating Gilgit region for the CPEC project into Pakistan based on their popular belief as above. They have even more confusion than India on the matter.

@WAJsal , could you please, and your solemn, pontificating friend please consolidate your posts and make a sticky out of it? It is invaluable. I would appreciate it if it were edited (with your permission, of course) and stuck to the factual narration - here I have to add that so far, you, individually, have been scrupulous in your practices.

@Joe Shearer Exactly. The points you have highlighted, since having been covered already, were of no use repeating. It is exactly the reason why even Indian claims to Aksai Chin are untenable as even Maharaja's claim over the areas were tenous at best. The history of Kashmir, I remain aware of, the topographic nature of advent of inhabitation as described by you above, is a hallmark of the general areas north-northeast-northwest of Kashmir valley proper, as most of the vales are deep with steep ascending mountains on either side and limited axis for movement. s

Since you have referred @WAJsal as a source, will spend next few days pouring over his posts to gain insights which may add to my residual knowledge of things in general and that portion of Kashmir in particular. Thanks for referring him.

@WAJsal Sorry if I bother you with a few clarifications, will be grateful for your indulgence in case of the same.

The blog I referred to was to highlight the confusion amongst the common Pakistani and the cycle of perpetuation of misconceptions as to their role in Kashmir imbroglio. Whereas the control of Gilgit was placed in NWFP due to the ease of administration, it can not be construed as being a part thereof, something which the author was trying to drive at. And the hesitancy I talk on part of Pakistan above, is in incorporating Gilgit region for the CPEC project into Pakistan based on their popular belief as above. They have even more confusion than India on the matter.

Your understanding is very accurate.

About Aksai Chin, I will speak to you separately, on my e-mail id, if you consider it discreet enough.

 

[Hellfire]

@WAJsal , could you please, and your solemn, pontificating friend please consolidate your posts and make a sticky out of it? It is invaluable. I would appreciate it if it were edited (with your permission, of course) and stuck to the factual narration - here I have to add that so far, you, individually, have been scrupulous in your practices.

Looking forward to it if @WAJsal is kind enough and takes the trouble to put up his insights along with your inputs, sir. It shall be a treasure of knowledge,am sure.

I think it shall need heavy monitoring as the aim can be made to look at the problem and critically analyse the behaviour of both the nations with respect to the issue and not be deviated by the usual banter driven by misplaced nationalistic feelings on either side.

About Aksai Chin, I will speak to you separately, on my e-mail id, if you consider it discreet enough.

Sir, will contact as feasible at the id you have mentioned here. Although, it shall take me about a decade's worth of reading to reach your level of erudition!!!!!
Regards

 

[war&peace]

In India majority freedom offered by constitution will rule .Religion or any other petty factors wont be a part of the greater
good.
Kashmiris can find other places if they cant follow the Indian administration .
We will do whatever we want .

Enough of the lies....Why the cow meat is banned?

 

[WAJsal]

My point is that the Commission was not the place to try and amend what the main body had resolved.

Good point.

Do you seriously propose that what a Pakistani soldier of today thought MIGHT have been in the minds of the Indians involved should be taken as a fact?

It's just his opinion, logic seems to be making some sense don't you think so? any withdrawal can lead to a mutiny of some sort. Sounds like a genuine concerns. Still a personal opinion.

You will agree that suddenly jumping into the middle of things and suggesting that everything turn back 69 years is a little unreasonable.

Unreasonable but logical. Actually plebiscite will never happen, period. I think it would be best to make Jammu and Kashmir an independent country, this is the third way out but no party will agree to it.

This freedom cannot be misused to drag along the people of Ladakh, or the people of Jammu.

Therein lies the problem and genuine too. But we go back to Majority is what matters, like it or not.

Actually, we have remembered the British rule on the sub-continent only too well.

Only too well that we have started implementing their ways, their methods. We have merely adopted a system, a well-thought out and a well-constructed one. Though we are seeing a more consentrated affect of this disease.
"I feel... that it is impossible for us, with our limited means, to attempt to educate the body of the people. We must at present do our best to form a class who may be interpreters between us and the millions whom we govern, - a class of persons Indian in blood and colour, but English in tastes, in opinions, in morals and in intellect. To that class we may leave it to refine the vernacular dialects of the country, to enrich those dialects with terms of science borrowed from the Western nomenclature, and to render them by degrees fit vehicles for conveying knowledge to the great mass of the population." [1] Thomas Babington Macaulay

It is not a question of stupidity or smartness. It is a question of sticking to the rules.

Agreed. But there are no such things as rules when it comes to national matters, interest is what you have to look at. I don't see why we can't grow past that.

From the above, if Gilgit had indeed voted for being a part of NWFP then the locus standii of Pakistani claim of fighting for state of J&K to decide its future is already on a shaky ground as clearly from the above one can make out that the Pakistani flag was unfurled at Governor's house and rest is all hogwash. It also brings into focus the aggression by Pakistani/Pakistani backed forces which, in contravention to the binding agreements predating 1947 wherein Gilgit was on lease from Maharaja of Kashmir to be reverted to his control on completion of the period of lease, acted actively in interest of Pakistan as opposed to the claimed interests of Kashmiris.

Confounds me!

Their present hesitancy and antithetical posturing over Gilgit till date is laughable!

It is not laughable in any sense. It is a proud moment of our history, we celebrate this date every year in Gilgit, it is a day to remember for us as we drove the occupying forces out and later acceded with Pakistan. And Pakistan had nothing to do with liberation of Gilgit Agency. @Joe Shearer ...
https://defence.pk/threads/happy-independence-day.406410/#post-7831811

It has interesting information. However, the writer is unaware of the legal situation and spends a lot of unnecessary time berating the hapless Liaqat Ali Khan. When the Gilgit Agency was separated from the J&K State, it was not in 1935, but much earlier, soon after the conquest of Gilgit, by the Dogras and the British combined (various actions were fought, some of which involved the British, some of which did not.), in the year 1877. It was for the administrative convenience of the British that the affairs of this part of J&K State were controlled from NWFP, and for no other reason.

Why the blogger expresses regret that the territory was not left with NWFP is not at all clear. There was no legal or constitutional connection with the NWFP of the Gilgit Agency, in either phase, 1877 to 1935 or 1935 to 1947. Quite correctly, on the British leaving, they surrendered control to the sovereign ruler, the Maharaja of Kashmir.

The other striking part of the blog is the complete excision of the role of Major Brown of the Gilgit Scouts. Very petty.

@hellfire , very incorrect with your post. Let me correct it for you...
Bloggers! wonder where they extract information from?

Gilgit-Baltistan came under the control of Dogra rulers of Kashmir in the middle of 18th century. By the end of 19th century, the British Government created the Gilgit agency and appointed a political agent, under a lease agreement with Maharaja Hari Singh of Kashmir.

"Historically these areas belong to Dogra State of Jammu and Kashmir. On March 29, 1935, the British government took possession of Gilgit Agency from the state government, through a lease agreement for 60 years. The British feared of the Soviet expansionist moves, and therefore wanted to have direct control in the region. During this period the state flag remained hoisted over residency along with the Union Jack. However by August 1, 1947, the areas were returned to the state government , because the British had decided partitioning of the Indian sub-continent."

Gilgit Agency was liberated by Gilgit scouts and later the state acceded to Pakistan on 1st November 1947...
Acession papers can be found here:
http://pamirtimes.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/finalreport.pdf

Main one:

From the above, if Gilgit had indeed voted for being a part of NWFP then the locus standii of Pakistani claim of fighting for state of J&K

It voted to be part of Pakistan. It was made a part of NWFP for administrative matters and later the status of GB was also given as stated by JOE.

"On 3 November 1947, Major Brown held a flag hoisting ceremony at Gilgit in the Socut Lines. After about a fortnight, one Sardar Mohammad Alam, a Pathan and obviously a nominee of Pakistan, came from Peshawar and took over the administration as Political Agent at Gilgit."

GB holds the same strategic depth that it held that day, ever wondered why British took control of the area from The Dogras?

Historically these areas belong to Dogra State of Jammu and Kashmir. On March 29, 1935, the British government took possession of Gilgit Agency from the state government, through a lease agreement for 60 years. The British feared of the Soviet expansionist moves, and therefore wanted to have direct control in the region

It has interesting information. However, the writer is unaware of the legal situation and spends a lot of unnecessary time berating the hapless Liaqat Ali Khan. When the Gilgit Agency was separated from the J&K State, it was not in 1935, but much earlier, soon after the conquest of Gilgit, by the Dogras and the British combined (various actions were fought, some of which involved the British, some of which did not.), in the year 1877. It was for the administrative convenience of the British that the affairs of this part of J&K State were controlled from NWFP, and for no other reason.

Why the blogger expresses regret that the territory was not left with NWFP is not at all clear. There was no legal or constitutional connection with the NWFP of the Gilgit Agency, in either phase, 1877 to 1935 or 1935 to 1947. Quite correctly, on the British leaving, they surrendered control to the sovereign ruler, the Maharaja of Kashmir.

Very accurate and well said. Actually these bloggers are quite funny. Have no idea what they are talking about and spreading mis-information.

The blog I referred to was to highlight the confusion amongst the common Pakistani and the cycle of perpetuation of misconceptions as to their role in Kashmir imbroglio. Whereas the control of Gilgit was placed in NWFP due to the ease of administration, it can not be construed as being a part thereof, something which the author was trying to drive at. And the hesitancy I talk on part of Pakistan above, is in incorporating Gilgit region for the CPEC project into Pakistan based on their popular belief as above. They have even more confusion than India on the matter.

Well said. Please contact informed people, there is a reason why we don't allow Blogs as source on PDF, they are unreliable. Need to educate the masses.

You can be more specific in asking some questions. Would love to help.

These threads should help...
https://defence.pk/threads/how-gilgit-baltistan-got-liberated.375789/
https://defence.pk/threads/how-gilgit-baltistan-got-liberated.375789/page-6#post-7338440
https://defence.pk/threads/how-gilgit-baltistan-got-liberated.375789/page-9#post-8154647

And i give salute to Major Brown for his efforts and to quote a piece from his book... Spoken like a true Pakistani, lol. @Joe Shearer
"The last straw was Major Brown’s disagreement over some administrative issue with Governor’s staff that came from Srinagar. The Governor sided with his staff; and Major Brown got extremely angry and locked himself up in a room to analyse the situation and plan his future action. In his book, The Gilgit Rebellion, Major Brown writes, and I quote:


‘I, therefore, felt it was my duty, as the only Britisher left, to follow a course which would prevent this. And further, as a liberal member of the world’s paragon of democracy, I considered that the whole of Kashmir, including Gilgit Province, unquestionably go to Pakistan in view of the fact that the population was predominantly Muslim. Partisan, traitor, revolutionary, I may have been, but that evening my sentiments dictated that if the Maharaja acceded to India, then I would forego all the allegiance to him and I would not rest content until I had done the utmost in my power to ensure that not only the Gilgit Province joined Pakistan, but the whole of Kashmir also.’ Unquote"

@hellfire ,@Joe Shearer , there is a good blog on this topic. Go through it and go through some of the articles posted here... This guy is my main source
https://hisamullahbeg.blogspot.com/

 

[Joe Shearer]

Good point.

It's just his opinion, logic seems to be making some sense don't you think so? any withdrawal can lead to a mutiny of some sort. Sounds like a genuine concerns. Still a personal opinion.

Unreasonable but logical. Actually plebiscite will never happen, period. I think it would be best to make Jammu and Kashmir an independent country, this is the third way out but no party will agree to it.

Therein lies the problem and genuine too. But we go back to Majority is what matters, like it or not.

Only too well that we have started implementing their ways, their methods. We have merely adopted a system, a well-thought out and a well-constructed one. Though we are seeing a more consentrated affect of this disease.
"I feel... that it is impossible for us, with our limited means, to attempt to educate the body of the people. We must at present do our best to form a class who may be interpreters between us and the millions whom we govern, - a class of persons Indian in blood and colour, but English in tastes, in opinions, in morals and in intellect. To that class we may leave it to refine the vernacular dialects of the country, to enrich those dialects with terms of science borrowed from the Western nomenclature, and to render them by degrees fit vehicles for conveying knowledge to the great mass of the population." [1] Thomas Babington Macaulay


Agreed. But there are no such things as rules when it comes to national matters, interest is what you have to look at. I don't see why we can't grow past that.


It is not laughable in any sense. It is a proud moment of our history, we celebrate this date every year in Gilgit, it is a day to remember for us as we drove the occupying forces out and later acceded with Pakistan. And Pakistan had nothing to do with liberation of Gilgit Agency. @Joe Shearer ...
https://defence.pk/threads/happy-independence-day.406410/#post-7831811

@hellfire , very incorrect with your post. Let me correct it for you...
Bloggers! wonder where they extract information from?

"Historically these areas belong to Dogra State of Jammu and Kashmir. On March 29, 1935, the British government took possession of Gilgit Agency from the state government, through a lease agreement for 60 years. The British feared of the Soviet expansionist moves, and therefore wanted to have direct control in the region. During this period the state flag remained hoisted over residency along with the Union Jack. However by August 1, 1947, the areas were returned to the state government , because the British had decided partitioning of the Indian sub-continent."

Gilgit Agency was liberated by Gilgit scouts and later the state acceded to Pakistan on 1st November 1947...
Acession papers can be found here:
http://pamirtimes.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/finalreport.pdf

Main one:

It voted to be part of Pakistan. It was made a part of NWFP for administrative matters and later the status of GB was also given as stated by JOE.

"On 3 November 1947, Major Brown held a flag hoisting ceremony at Gilgit in the Socut Lines. After about a fortnight, one Sardar Mohammad Alam, a Pathan and obviously a nominee of Pakistan, came from Peshawar and took over the administration as Political Agent at Gilgit."

GB holds the same strategic depth that it held that day, ever wondered why British took control of the area from The Dogras?



Very accurate and well said. Actually these bloggers are quite funny. Have no idea what they are talking about and spreading mis-information.

Well said. Please contact informed people, there is a reason why we don't allow Blogs as source on PDF, they are unreliable. Need to educate the masses.

You can be more specific in asking some questions. Would love to help.

These threads should help...
https://defence.pk/threads/how-gilgit-baltistan-got-liberated.375789/
https://defence.pk/threads/how-gilgit-baltistan-got-liberated.375789/page-6#post-7338440
https://defence.pk/threads/how-gilgit-baltistan-got-liberated.375789/page-9#post-8154647

And i give salute to Major Brown for his efforts and to quote a piece from his book... Spoken like a true Pakistani, lol. @Joe Shearer
"The last straw was Major Brown’s disagreement over some administrative issue with Governor’s staff that came from Srinagar. The Governor sided with his staff; and Major Brown got extremely angry and locked himself up in a room to analyse the situation and plan his future action. In his book, The Gilgit Rebellion, Major Brown writes, and I quote:


‘I, therefore, felt it was my duty, as the only Britisher left, to follow a course which would prevent this. And further, as a liberal member of the world’s paragon of democracy, I considered that the whole of Kashmir, including Gilgit Province, unquestionably go to Pakistan in view of the fact that the population was predominantly Muslim. Partisan, traitor, revolutionary, I may have been, but that evening my sentiments dictated that if the Maharaja acceded to India, then I would forego all the allegiance to him and I would not rest content until I had done the utmost in my power to ensure that not only the Gilgit Province joined Pakistan, but the whole of Kashmir also.’ Unquote"

@hellfire ,@Joe Shearer , there is a good blog on this topic. Go through it and go through some of the articles posted here... This guy is my main source
https://hisamullahbeg.blogspot.com/

If your damn' post hadn't been so patchy, it would have deserved a +ve rating.

I agree with 90% of what you say.

About @hellfire , you owe it to me, if nothing else, to set him right, politely. He doesn't know the details and he isn't expected to. Faujis don't have that amount of time. On ground conditions today, he is so accurate that I thought he was bluffing about being 'somewhere close to Hyderabad' and was still on posting to J&K.

By and large, you would notice, he has everything right. Some of the more obscure historical details slip by him, once in a way.

 

[Tiger Genie]

No you didn't show any realidon'cty. In fact you showed nothing other than trash.

you are confusing your inability to face the truth with lack of evidence. Seek help

 

[Areesh]

you are confusing your inability to face the truth with lack of evidence. Seek help

Paper tiger from Bharat is trying desperately to keep this thread and his lies alive. Doesn't seem to working though.

@WAJsal

Nice post bro.

 

[Tiger Genie]

Paper tiger from Bharat is trying desperately to keep this thread and his lies alive. Doesn't seem to working though.

@WAJsal

Nice post bro.

.no cigar. Happens when you lose.

 

[SrNair]

Enough of the lies....Why the cow meat is banned?

Where ??
Here we have enough cow meat .
Do you want some?

 

[Areesh]

.no cigar. Happens when you lose. don't worry, in due course you will learn to be a better loser.

I might learn or not.

And just to tease you a little more. Here is reality of your broken atoot ang by your own compatriot.

http://scroll.in/article/810692/the...d-public-anger-kashmir-needs-urgent-attention

Seeing you running away from reality with your tails between your legs in your next post. Like always.

 

[Tiger Genie]

I might learn or not.

And just to tease you a little more. Here is reality of your broken atoot ang by your own compatriot.

http://scroll.in/article/810692/the...d-public-anger-kashmir-needs-urgent-attention

Seeing you running away from reality with your tails between your legs in your next post. Like always.

stop jumping up and down. don't exert your noggin too much.

 

[Areesh]

stop jumping up and down. don't exert your noggin too much.

See.You are allergic to realities my dear bharati clown who has ran away to Amreeka for better future.

 

[Tiger Genie]

See.You are allergic to realities my dear bharati clown who has ran away to Amreeka for better future.

don't worry too much, if you develop some useful talents you can make something of yourself. But you have to try though.
If you are interested I will recommend a 3-step program for you.

 

[Areesh]

don't worry too much, if you develop some useful talents you can make something of yourself. But you have to try though.
If you are interested I will recommend a 3-step program for you.

Blah blah. No time for your cr@p.

Going to share the link once again since you are allergic to it.

http://scroll.in/article/810692/the...d-public-anger-kashmir-needs-urgent-attention