Real story of Kargil war

[53fd]

i m going to act like a smartass and quote clausewitz here.


so what were the political ambitions of the PA when it started these hostilities?
were they achieved?
what was the cost?
did the costs justify the political gains?

these are the things that really matter. it doesnt matter that the indian army outnumbered the pakistany forced 10000:1 or had help from martians. at the end of the day pakistan did not gain and the status quo was re-established, something the indians were aiming for.

Kargil 1999 was a result of Siachen 1984. Liberating Kashmir was never the idea, it was about the strategic location of Kargil. Pakistan captured peak 5353 in Kargil in the war, the highest & most strategically important peak, & still does today. At first, the Indians were denying Peak 5353 was originally under Indian control, & that it was even on the Kargil side; but then their lies were exposed badly. India tried to recapture it many times post 1999, but failed to do so on all occasions.

This is how critical Peak 5353 is:

Standing tall and dominating the famous Tiger Hill on the Line of Control (LoC) is a grim reminder of the Kargil war. Point 5353, the highest peak in the region which has a clear view of the National Highway 1 D, remains occupied by Pakistan even a decade after the battle.

While the point is clearly on the Indian side of the LoC, it remains in Pakistani control which has fortified it with reinforced bunkers and has even built a special road nearby to carry up supplies for soldiers.

The Indian Army, which made several unsuccessful attempts to occupy the post after the Kargil war, has since given up the post as “untenable” given the geography of the region that makes it fairly easy for Pakistani troops to climb.

What makes Point 5353 so valuable for the two armies is that it has a clear view of the national highway that connects the Kashmir valley with Kargil. The main reason the Army retaliated hard to the Pakistani intrusion in 1999 was that disruption of traffic on the road would cut off supplies to Ladakh and the Siachen glacier.

While officers say that Point 5353 is surrounded by three Indian posts, including Point 5240 and any action from there would be neutralised, the fact remains that artillery observers from the post can easily direct fire on a 25 km stretch of the national highway.

Besides, the most dominating feature in the region has a clear view of the Tiger Hill and surrounding areas. Sources say Pakistan has constructed concrete bunkers at the location and have a special supply base on their side of the LoC that has substantial reinforcements.

Several attempts to dislodge Pakistani troops from the posts with the help of artillery fire remained unsuccessful till action became impossible after the 2003 ceasefire. The Army has since given up the option of retaking the post in the larger interest of peace in the area.

Even a decade after the war and several revelations by Pakistani officers that the main aim of the intrusion was to cut off the strategic Drass-Kargil highway so that supplies to Siachen would dry up, the road remains under the threat of enemy fire. Besides Drass and Point 5353, several other stretches of the road at places like Kaksar are under Pakistani observation.

While a lot of papers were moved after the Army said that an alternative all-weather road to Leh and Siachen is urgently required, work on the ground remains extremely slow. Efforts are on to make the Manali-Leh highway into an all-weather road but even the most positive estimates say the strategic tunnel at Rohtang pass will take at least seven more years to complete.

Supplies for Leh and the Siachen glacier follow two basic routes — through the Rohtang pass on the Manali-Leh highway or through the Zojila pass on the Srinagar-Leh highway 1 D. While the 13,000 feet Rohtang pass remains cut off longer in winters, the 11,500 feet Zojila pass generally opens earlier and is used to carry supplies for Army units.

What is worrisome is that even after a decade of the Kargil war, highway 1 D remains under the threat of being cut off by enemy fire.

Near Tiger Hill, Point 5353 still Pak-occupied - Indian Express

 

[Moorkh]

Kargil 1999 was a result of Siachen 1984. Liberating Kashmir was never the idea, it was about the strategic location of Kargil. Pakistan captured peak 5353 in Kargil in the war, the highest & most strategically important peak, & still does today. At first, the Indians were denying Peak 5353 was originally under Indian control, & that it was even on the Kargil side; but then their lies were exposed badly. India tried to recapture it many times post 1999, but failed to do so on all occasions.

This is how critical Peak 5353 is:



Near Tiger Hill, Point 5353 still Pak-occupied - Indian Express

but what were the political gains?

were the military objectives limited to capturing one hill?

please answer those questions.

i didnt make an assertion as to the aims the PA when it occupied over 100 posts. it would be convenient if we were both clear about the objectives of the two forces when the hostilities started.

india intended to maintain the status quo. it succeeded but for one hill. also pakistan has not been able to force any political concessions from india by leveraging that one point 5353. so we can assert that pakistan did not manage to change the political status quo to its favor.
there, i presented the aims of the GoI and how they were achieved

now kindly present the aims of GoP and how they were achieved.

 

[Bond]

lol numbers do not tell the entire story....
-Numbers not mention about humiliation suffered by Pakistan soldiers when their own country disowned them...
- Statistics does not mention humiliation & loss of credibility faced by Pakistan in International arena..
- Numbers do not mention about how this incident was a precipitant to the overthrowing of democracy in Pakistan and start of dictatorship- an event since which Pakistan is going down and keep going down even now..
- Most importantly for India it was wake up & call and India started massive modernization of Military...

Anyways I am glad that these statistics give you a satisfaction & help ignore the reality... RIP to the ground warriors who lost their life unnecessarily due to foolishness of a military general !!!

In terms of land:

1999 was a stalemate, as India recaptured its lost territory from Pakistan only through the persuasion of the US against Pakistan.

In terms of troops:

1999 war:

Indian troop strength: 30,000
Pakistan troop strength: 5000

Indian troops losses: 527
Pakistan troops losses: 626

India's injuries figures: 1,363 wounded
Pakistan's injuries figures: 665 wounded

 

[53fd]

Originally Posted by Bhairava




Bilawal ji; just to refresh you on what you have yourself quoted:


SO NOW MUY AMIGO, SHOW ME WHERE INDIA REQUESTED USA TO MEDIATE?
AND YOU CAN TRY YOUR SPIN AGAIN, AMIGO. BUT IT SURE AIN'T SPINNIN!!!

The face saving was for Nawaz Sharif, & Pakistan who had lost international support when they initiated the war. No where in the article does it say that the Indian troops had starting recapturing the peaks, it says Clinton was "holding firm on demanding the withdrawal of Pakistani troops to the Line of Control." In other words, Clinton was enforcing the Indian demand of the withdrawal of the Pakistani troops to the LOC, not because India had started recapturing the peaks. If that isn't mediation on the part of the US for India, then I don't know what is.

Pakistan had become isolated, & Sharif desperate; because they had lost international opinion & support, not because they were losing the military encounter. Sharif was additionally desperate & sought help, because he feared the reaction of the Pakistani public, when he asked the troops to withdraw when they had the upper hand against India. Which is why the troops were asked to retreat back to original positions on the LOC, & that is when India recaptured its lost territory.

 

[Tija]

keep on excusing Pakisthan lost the War due to International(American) pressure.

But ultimately we won the war & started our journey to be prosper as (United)Indian.

I have to thank Pakisthan for that

 

[notsuperstitious]

As the Pakistani misadventure started misfiring, with India capturing one post after another even with heavy casualties, with Pakistan's ability to supply threatened by airstrikes, stung by international media like never before, proven to be liars once again and once again abandoned by all ''friends'', Nawaz Sharif ran to USA seeking to achieve a face saving compromise. India had nothing to gain by a compromise, and refused to even meet Sharif. India made clear that there was nothing to discuss and Pakistan would have to abandon the remaining posts in their control either voluntarily or by force. With no other choice left, pakistani PM agreed, thus saving the lives of many pakistani and indian soldiers.

This is very eloquently described by Nawaz Sharif and no amount of spinning the obvious by internet fanboys changes that fact.

What nobody knows is, why the duck the adventurous army of pakistan set upon such a disasterous plan and how they remain as always, unaccountable for their unprofessional bloodthirsty behaviour.

ISLAMABAD: The Pakistan Army lost 2,700 military personnel in the Kargil conflict, far higher than its casualties during the 1965 and 1971 wars with India, former Pakistan prime minister Nawaz Sharif has said in his memoirs.

"I inquired (from Musharraf) were you not aware that this kind of bombing could take place. Musharraf said, 'Sir, we were not aware of it,'" Sharif said adding he was told the Indian artillery bombardment was so extensive that it blew off the heads of Pakistan soldiers hiding in trenches.
Musharraf told Sharif that because the trenches did not have covers, the soldiers were directly exposed to artillery fire.

"Let me tell you by the time when the Washington deal took place, the Indians had already recaptured half of the peaks and were advancing further. I protected the Pakistan Army's honour or they would have been left with nothing," Sharif said.

The perfectly explains Vajpayee's stand that we were going to go on till we captured all the peaks. That stand was communicated to US when we refused to meet, the same stand that bilal is now desperately trying to spin LOL. Bilal stop cutting such a sorry picture.

Pak lost 2,700 troops during Kargil conflict: Nawaz Sharif - World - DNA

 

[DEV444]

In terms of land:

1999 was a stalemate, as India recaptured its lost territory from Pakistan only through the persuasion of the US against Pakistan.

In terms of troops:

1999 war:

Indian troop strength: 30,000
Pakistan troop strength: 5000

Indian troops losses: 527
Pakistan troops losses: 626

India's injuries figures: 1,363 wounded
Pakistan's injuries figures: 665 wounded

Sir,

You say Pakistan troops losses: 626
But your then Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif is on record admitting 2700 dead on Pakistani side.
So you are claiming you know more than even your PM ?

 

[manofwar]

The face saving was for Nawaz Sharif, & Pakistan who had lost international support when they initiated the war.

They never had international support, regarding Kashmir, just China supported Paksitan...

No where in the article does it say that the Indian troops had starting recapturing the peaks, it says Clinton was "holding firm on demanding the withdrawal of Pakistani troops to the Line of Control." In other words, Clinton was enforcing the Indian demand of the withdrawal of the Pakistani troops to the LOC, not because India had started recapturing the peaks.

India had recaptured 80% of the territory when USA mandated a Pakistani withdrawal, according to this source..
Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

Sharif was additionally desperate & sought help, because he feared the reaction of the Pakistani public, when he asked the troops to withdraw when they had the upper hand against India.

How the Hell did they have upper hand , having lost 80% of the occupied territory??

If you don't believe that we won the war, ask the North Light Infantry... Most of it was killed in action..

 

[haviZsultan]

The Kargil war was a direct result of the Siachen conflict which was started by India. India invaded after a japanese expedition was allowed to scale Rimo 1 an important peak.

Pakistan was caught completely offguard and Indians launched Operation Meghdoot which resulted in the loss of a great amount of territory.

The kargill war was a result of that and was to offset the losses suffered in the Siachen conflict which included the loss of about 1000 sq miles of territory. So in reality Siachen provoked the Kargill war. US put no pressure on the Indians to withdraw from the territory they had captured in this war.

However in the Kargil war we were doing better. Eventually however we had to withdraw because the US put pressure on us to withdraw and we stupidly obliged. We just had to keep the militias and soldiers who had taken Indian check-posts supplied.

But these are the dual standards of the US. Very much like the nuke deal with India and no nuke deal with Pakistan. Being betrayed by our allies has cost us a lot. I wonder when we will learn lessons from it.

 

[GR!FF!N]

The Kargil war was a direct result of the Siachen conflict which was started by India. India invaded after a japanese expedition was allowed to scale Rimo 1 an important peak.

Pakistan was caught completely offguard and Indians launched Operation Meghdoot which resulted in the loss of a great amount of territory.

well,you are wrong...

according to a now retired Pakistani army colonel. "They ordered Arctic-weather gear from a London outfitters who also supplied the Indians," says the colonel. "Once the Indians got wind of it, they ordered 300 outfits—twice as many as we had—and rushed their men up to Siachen."

Siachen conflict - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

your post looks like "sour grapes" to me..

 

[Fasih Khan]

well dude we r ready to accept we lost happily. u take it. we dont need a victory on pak its below our level of victory. beating kiddies is not something india should be proud of.

Get beatenup by ''kiddies'' is Ok, Right .. Pathetic state of mind, Indians ... Proved yet again

 

[manofwar]

Get beatenup by ''kiddies'' is Ok, Right .. Pathetic state of mind, Indians ... Proved yet again

picking out random posts and answering them won't help your argument.....
I suggest you go through all the posts first

 

[deckingraj]

Get beatenup by ''kiddies'' is Ok, Right .. Pathetic state of mind, Indians ... Proved yet again

Actually we were not beaten up by kiddies in Kargil but for surely beaten up by some "kiddies" of internet....Grow up!!...defeats happen and one must learn from it....False pride is a very dangerous enemy..One must keep at an arms length from it...There is plethora of literature on Kargil war..You can also read it and learn a bit more...b/w do ask your govt/army to form a committee on kargil so that you guys can learn what actually happened...for some reason it is still not in place..say's a lot about the saga, no???

Here is what your counterparts found...

Executive Summary of the Kargil Committee Report:

 

[K-Xeroid]

Sir,

You say Pakistan troops losses: 626
But your then Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif is on record admitting 2700 dead on Pakistani side.So you are claiming you know more than even your PM ?

First he never proved his statement and later he indirectly admitted that it was a political attempt against Musharaf..Even Not in just Kargil matters , Nawaz Shareef and his party have used False statements in many other matters, thats why they are getting unpopuplar in their own strong hold areas.. Even yesterday in program Hasan Nisar corrected an estimate which was falsly provided by the Nawaz shareef's brother ...

Actually we were not beaten up by kiddies in Kargil but for surely beaten up by some "kiddies" of internet....Grow up!!...defeats happen and one must learn from it....False pride is a very dangerous enemy..One must keep at an arms length from it...There is plethora of literature on Kargil war..You can also read it and learn a bit more...

Nice lecture.. I hope your indian fellas might understand it now.. Guys like you really need to work on Indians false pride.

 

[53fd]

As the Pakistani misadventure started misfiring, with India capturing one post after another even with heavy casualties, with Pakistan's ability to supply threatened by airstrikes, stung by international media like never before, proven to be liars once again and once again abandoned by all ''friends'', Nawaz Sharif ran to USA seeking to achieve a face saving compromise. India had nothing to gain by a compromise, and refused to even meet Sharif. India made clear that there was nothing to discuss and Pakistan would have to abandon the remaining posts in their control either voluntarily or by force. With no other choice left, pakistani PM agreed, thus saving the lives of many pakistani and indian soldiers.

This is very eloquently described by Nawaz Sharif and no amount of spinning the obvious by internet fanboys changes that fact.

What nobody knows is, why the duck the adventurous army of pakistan set upon such a disasterous plan and how they remain as always, unaccountable for their unprofessional bloodthirsty behaviour.

ISLAMABAD: The Pakistan Army lost 2,700 military personnel in the Kargil conflict, far higher than its casualties during the 1965 and 1971 wars with India, former Pakistan prime minister Nawaz Sharif has said in his memoirs.

"I inquired (from Musharraf) were you not aware that this kind of bombing could take place. Musharraf said, 'Sir, we were not aware of it,'" Sharif said adding he was told the Indian artillery bombardment was so extensive that it blew off the heads of Pakistan soldiers hiding in trenches.
Musharraf told Sharif that because the trenches did not have covers, the soldiers were directly exposed to artillery fire.

"Let me tell you by the time when the Washington deal took place, the Indians had already recaptured half of the peaks and were advancing further. I protected the Pakistan Army's honour or they would have been left with nothing," Sharif said.

The perfectly explains Vajpayee's stand that we were going to go on till we captured all the peaks. That stand was communicated to US when we refused to meet, the same stand that bilal is now desperately trying to spin LOL. Bilal stop cutting such a sorry picture.

Pak lost 2,700 troops during Kargil conflict: Nawaz Sharif - World - DNA

Why are you spamming the same post over & over. Nawaz Sharif is not an impartial source, as he wanted to show himself as a savior, he was afraid of the Pakistani public's reaction, when Pakistani troops had the upper hand over India, & it was because of him when he asked the troops to withdraw that India recaptured its peaks. Of course Nawaz Sharif wanted some face saving, as he was afraid of the reaction of the Pakistan public when he buckled under the pressure of the US. I've even given you an Indian source quoting the Clinton aide, but somehow, you think Nawaz Sharif's word is more reliable:

Clinton had invited Vajpayee to Washington for a face-to-face meeting with Sharif but the Indian Prime Minister had declined to undertake the visit in view of the then security situation.

Giving a deep insight to the intense backroom diplomacy by the US during the 1999 Kargil conflict, a top Clinton aide has revealed how Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee stood firm on India's demand for unconditional withdrawal of Pakistani troops and his then counterpart Nawaz Sharif buckled to Washington's dictat.

Clinton had informed Vajpayee after intensive parleys with Sharif in Washington in early July 1999 that he was "holding firm on demanding the withdrawal of Pakistani troops to the Line of Control."

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...onflict-Clinton-aide/articleshow/10341644.cms

In other words, Clinton pushed forward India's demand of troops withdrawal on Nawaz, & Nawaz buckled under pressure. The Clinton administration mediated for India, because India couldn't force Pakistan themselves. That is how India recaptured its peaks.

The Pakistan Army gave Pakistan's casualties count at 453, Nawaz Sharif at 2700; neutral sources such as globalsecurity.org have placed the number at 696 deaths:

The spring and summer incursion of Pakistan-backed armed forces into territory on the Indian side of the line of control around Kargil in the state of Jammu and Kashmir and the Indian military campaign to repel the intrusion left 524 Indian soldiers dead and 1,363 wounded, according to December 1 statistics by Defense Minister George Fernandes. Earlier Government figures stated that 696 Pakistani soldiers were killed.

1999 Kargil Conflict

They never had international support, regarding Kashmir, just China supported Paksitan...

India had recaptured 80% of the territory when USA mandated a Pakistani withdrawal, according to this source..
Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

How the Hell did they have upper hand , having lost 80% of the occupied territory??

If you don't believe that we won the war, ask the North Light Infantry... Most of it was killed in action..

The source is Nawaz Sharif, & Sharif also lied that 2700 troops were killed. It was a face saving tactic for him, as he was afraid what the reaction of the Pakistani public would be when he buckled under US pressure.