Raymond Davis Case: Developing Story

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I understand, however, that the Pakistani press is really bad and has played a major role in shaping your perceptions. How are Pakistanis supposed to learn better if you don't keep an open mind and make an effort to discover and promote true facts yourself?

The Pakistani press has in fact done an excellent job, by giving the public access to relevant documents, statements and interviews with concerned officials, from all sides.

Pakistanis, not just here, but on the comments sections of the major English Pakistani newspapers, have pulled out and studied the text of the conventions governing diplomatic immunity for consulate workers, and pointed out how the GoP is in fact doing nothing illegal. The same arguments have been made by several journalists and commentators in the Pakistani media.

 

[SekrutYakhni]

Hi,

why don't you tell it to the families of the innocent children and the families of the rape and sodomy victims----.

SAAD---I am talking about the character of a nation and its people----regardless of the national iassues or local issues----a nation has a character that it shows under duress----either from inside or from outside.

The people and the world judges us and our character from what we do to our own and dear ones---that is what the world knows us by---and when an international issue comes up----all this dirt and that we have burried in our backyard---comes to the surface.

Nations look at us us and look at the legal precedence that we have setup in the past---the analysts will dig out all the dirt that they have about our legal system and throw it at our faces and let the world see it for itslef.

Social issues and geo-political issues sometimes are extremely close to each other than what one may want to admit.

Same could be said to you. You can also man up and tell your thoughts to the parents of the victims of Raymond's shooting.

"SAAD---I am talking about the character of a nation and its people----regardless of the national iassues or local issues----a nation has a character that it shows under duress----either from inside or from outside."

Yes and the character of Americans can be well discussed, if you know what I mean.

I agree with you that 'a' bacteria is part of a larger family i.e. social behaviour of a nation reflects the character--.

Can I point some guns at you and ask you some questions of charismatic society i.e. America? The point is, as it was, there is a line between up roaring because of a social problem and a problem which is national and international.

The case of Ann Coulter, is an internal issue of the U.S, her social acceptance but a Pakistani American--maybe a diplomat, killing an accused on American streets is another issue. Moreover, the reaction was intense from the public because Pakistanis DO NOT like Amrikans.

 

[Mutee]

Excellent post sir mastan both of the points you make are very true and genuine Pakistan can't afford to piss off the Americans because we are totally dependent on them for our survival so we have to release RD your other point that the we are Morally A bank-crypt nation is also very valid but I would say few good ppl remain in this society we just need to follow the right path and leave this slavery only them we will become a true nation but for that we need self reliance Nd good economy as long as these factors are not present we would always remain a slave

 

[r3alist]

Is it worth the fight if the two guys were criminals?

according to that logic you murder a criminal then its ok?

ofcourse it worth it, fighting for justice is priceless - and this is what the pakistani population want.


and who cares if america gives us aid?

anyone tell me what benefit this has given the common pakistani - ZERO, because it does not go to them.

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

Whoa! Nitro, has your anger made you blind? Davis killed two people. The third was killed by somebody else.

It is Davis' imprisonment in Pakistan that is unjust because under the Vienna convention the U.S. has jurisdiction. If it really believes Davis committed a crime the GoP can kick him out of the country and insist he be prosecuted in the U.S. Pakistani police can present evidence there.

We really do have a good court system in this country. I understand, however, that the Pakistani press is really bad and has played a major role in shaping your perceptions. How are Pakistanis supposed to learn better if you don't keep an open mind and make an effort to discover and promote true facts yourself?

Solmon2 .. The fact is , if Raymond Davis had compleet blanket immunity our FM Qureshi wouldnt have felt the need to not give in to US demands and dont respect the International Law , as Hes a God Dam FM not an ordinary Pakistani, I expect he knew the legalities being followed in the light of Viena conventions and therefore didnt give in to the Demands of US despite being pressurized.Further if RD really enjoyed that status quo , it wouldnt have taken State Dpt or the US embassy to provide his Documented status quo even after two weeks after this tragic incident...!!!

 

[SekrutYakhni]

You could talk about morality here i.e. Americans provided critical support to Pakistanis when they needed it but they are ditching us now, so on and so forth. The fact of the matter is, if the U.S. did not support dictators and corrupt politicians, America would be an ally for whom Pakistanis could give their lives. Was it a conspiracy when Benazir met some American officials? What was that? I could pin point the same for every politician and army general.
You know why Pakistanis hate Americans? They supported our corrupt leaders.

 

[pakdefender]

Lahore court extends Davis’ remand for 14 days


LAHORE: A court on Thursday put off ruling whether a US official accused of double murder has diplomatic immunity, threatening to prolong a crisis with Washington for another month.

The court adjourned until March 14, extending tensions between the United States and Pakistan

Raymond Davis, whom Washington insists has diplomatic immunity, says he acted in self-defence when he shot dead two men in a busy street in Lahore on January 27.

A third Pakistani died when struck by a US diplomatic vehicle that came to Davis’s assistance.

“As the deputy attorney general has requested three weeks to submit a reply on the status of Raymond Davis, the case is adjourned until March 14,” Lahore high court chief justice Ijaz Mohammad Chaudhry said.

Reacting to the hearing, US ambassador Cameron Munter said the US was “disappointed that the government of Pakistan did not certify that Raymond Davis has diplomatic immunity.”

The government in Islamabad is under enormous domestic pressure not to be seen as kowtowing to US demands for Davis’ release and has come under fire over how American officials are seemingly free to drive around with loaded weapons.

”Senator Kerry’s visit to Pakistan manifested our intention to work with the government of Pakistan to resolve this issue,” said Munter.

”As the senator said during his visit, we want to work together as two countries that have a common interest in the same goal and find a path forward.”

“This is not a simple case. It has legal, social, political and international implications, and the government therefore wants to find a solution with consensus,” Information Minister Firdous Ashiq Awan said.

But political analyst Hasan Askari told AFP: “The longer the delay, the more difficult it will become for the government. You create room for a lot of speculation.”

Another court on Thursday remanded Davis in custody until March 3 in a separate case of illegal arms possession, the American making an appearance by video link from jail, said Punjab government prosecutor Abdul Samad.

Demonstrators in Multan, the home town of Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani, burnt the US flag and an effigy of US Senator John Kerry, who visited Pakistan this week, to protest against pressure for Davis’ release, witnesses said.

Many Pakistanis remain suspicious about why Davis, who reportedly worked for a security contractor, was carrying loaded weapons and a GPS satellite tracking device.

US authorities say he is a diplomat assigned to the US embassy.

A statement on January 28 that identified him as a “staff member of the US consulate general in Lahore” was a mistake owing to the “effort to get information out”, US embassy spokeswoman Courtney Beale told AFP on Thursday.

“When we checked the diplomatic note we realised that he was assigned to the embassy. We mistakenly said he was with the consulate,” Beale said.

When it came to not releasing his identity, she said Davis gave them permission to use his name only after a week.

Lahore court extends Davis

 

[Solomon2]

“This is not a simple case. It has legal, social, political and international implications, and the government therefore wants to find a solution with consensus,” Information Minister Firdous Ashiq Awan said.

Actually, it is a simple case. If Davis didn't have immunity there would be no "international implications"; he would just be another American behind bars in a foreign country. What is really happening is that Pakistan is trashing the Vienna Convention (either 1961 or 1963, take your pick!) I suspect GoP officials don't want to deal with the social and political implications which would call them to task before their own populace and asked for the delay until they can come up with an idea of how to deal with it - or in the foolish hope public anger will cool.

But political analyst Hasan Askari told AFP: “The longer the delay, the more difficult it will become for the government.

I'm not eager to let them off the hook.

 

[r3alist]

Actually, it is a simple case. If Davis didn't have immunity there would be no "international implications"

if he had immunity the relevant documents would have been produced, and this would have been over in a matter of hours, because why would the US mess about if he is legit?

the truth is he is a nefarious character, a trained murdered who belongs in a jason bourne film and not pakistan in any legal way.

and the us have had their agitator and spy caught red handed, he is significant because he will let the cat out of the bag.

 

[VCheng]

according to that logic you murder a criminal then its ok?

ofcourse it worth it, fighting for justice is priceless - and this is what the pakistani population want.


and who cares if america gives us aid?

anyone tell me what benefit this has given the common pakistani - ZERO, because it does not go to them.

You are right to the extent that the average Pakistani does not derive as much DIRECT benefit as could be derived, but that is NOT the fault of USA. Please look to the Pakistani kleptocracy.

If you consider INDIRECT benefits, economic and military assistance are first and foremost, followed by many other less major, but nonetheless important things. A further discussion would be off topic for this thread.

 

[Ghareeb_Da_Baal]

Court will decide Davis’ immunity: govt.

Updated at 0130 PST Friday, February 18, 2011

ISLAMABAD: President and Prime Minister chaired a core committee meeting of their respective party PPP here late on Thursday, Geo News reported.

President Asif Ali Zardari said US Senator had been informed about the immunity issue of Raymond Davis that the matter was being heard by a court so the court will pronounce the final judgment.
-----------------------------------------------------
US disappointed over immunity refusal: Munter

Updated at 2100 PST Thursday, February 17, 2011

ISLAMBAD: US Ambassador in Pakistan Cameron Munter Thursday said Pakistan refusal to give immunity to Raymond Davis has caused disappointment to the US, Geo News reported.

The US has already made its position clear on the matter while Cameron Munter in reaction to the Raymond Davis case, said the recent visit of John Kerry to Pakistan was reflective of the US intention to work together with Pakistan. John Kerry himself during his visit also expressed the wish of the US to work in collaboration with Pakistan, he added.

Pakistan and US share common interests and goals and that the US is grieved over the loss of life in Lahore and share the sorrow of the victims’ families.
----------------------------------------------

Per Jang Update, Fauzia Wahab, the PPP's Info secretary has been fired and replaced keeping in view popular resentment that ensued after her "personal opinion".

 

[r3alist]

You are right to the extent that the average Pakistani does not derive as much DIRECT benefit as could be derived, but that is NOT the fault of USA. Please look to the Pakistani kleptocracy.

If you consider INDIRECT benefits, economic and military assistance are first and foremost, followed by many other less major, but nonetheless important things. A further discussion would be off topic for this thread.

firstly they derive next to next to NO benefit.

secondly the USA are fully aware of the system of corruption within pakistani politics, so they are very much complicit in the corruption, if not the instigators themselves.

thirdly, i am not aware of any indirect benefits, i know one thing about the USA and that is they look after themselves first and only. so if pakistan has received any favor its because it benefits the US first, anything else is a fortunate consequence.


please remove the pakistani flag from your name, any self respecting pakistani cannot be an apologist for abject capitulation and slavery.

 

[Pak_Sher]

Actually if the US Aid stops that will be a blessing in disguise to revamp our Tax revenue collection system. The money is there but not collected, there are medium and high income individuals and business people that never pay 1 paisa in taxes.

Pakistan can have good relations with the US, but should be independent finacillay.

 

[r3alist]

Actually if the US Aid stops that will be a blessing in disguise to revamp our Tax revenue collection system. The money is there but not collected, there are medium and high income individuals and business peo
ple that never pay 1 paisa in taxes.

Pakistan can have good relations with the US, but should be independent finacillay.

dont get me wrong, good relations are preferable, but not at the expense of the nation.


the us are only interested when pakistan are being useful servants, else we are nothing.

therefore the only option is to wean ourselves away from reliance, and chart an independent path, and PREFERABLY not upsetting the americans too much.

however, such are the demands that its unavoidable, in that case we should remember china is next door to us.

 

[pakdefender]

In the following video one can clearly see the american mercenary refusing to co-operate with the investigators and then in almost a fit of rage he tries to get up and go out of the room, see here

Also see the following

Pak1stanFirst-Davis flies into fury on prayer call | Latest News

The above report cites that Raymond Davis got enraged when he saw inmates praying in the jail and he became savagely aggressive upon hearing the call to prayers.


Here are some quotes

“He started shouting in a quite savage manner in the wee hours when the Azaan was in progress and the prisoners were waking up for the prayers,” said a prisoner requesting not to be named.

The inmate said that Davis started shouting, “Shut the loud speaker or I will raise the matter with the (US) Consulate.”

“Seeing four prisoners offering Asr prayers in the corridor of their barrack, Davis started grumbling in a derogatory way,” said Shah.

Davis shouted in reply: “You uncivilised fools don’t even make good servants. Is this the method to serve?”

On being informed, Jail Superintendent Awan arrived within no time and tried his best to placate Davis, who abused him also, saying: “I am saying you should go now, bastard.”

Raymond Davis seems to have rage issues, he seems to harbour a lot of hate and he seems to have total contempt for the host country.

Add to this the two direct murders that he committed and the third death for which he is directly responsible, he radioed the American vehicle which killed the bystander.

Had he co-operated with the traffic warden instead of trying to break the law the third life could have been saved

Also to add that this man was in possession of photographs of Army bunkers and his call records show that he had made calls to Waziristan this man making contacts with militants must be investigated.

He was also in possession of illegal arms.

It outrageous for the Americans to suggest that this man be granted diplomatic immunity when clearly this man is not only a murderer he is also an enemy of the state

Enemy action is for sure not covered under diplomatic immunity.

Raymond Davis will never be freed, he will be convicted on multiple charges and most likely he will be facing the death penalty, which he deserves.